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On August 25 2010 03:43 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:46 Mogwai wrote:
I don't really have a fancy defense for sheen on Sion, but the gist of it is that between your nukes and ult, you can get 2-3 procs of it in a typical "Sion is here and you are dead" fight. AP Sion is all about the 3-4 second burst and Sheen is a really cost effective way to jack that up + it builds into lichbane later which really lets you explode people. Essentially, the way AP sion plays only lets him get 2-3 auto-attacks in anyway, and Sheen is the best way to jack up the damage on those 2-3 attacks.
Now, that being said, I think AP Sion just isn't the way you should build him. At least not in the metagame. AP Sion is a monster insta-gibber, but you basically don't have any good ways to spec for real survivability through AP investments and if you're fighting a bunch of tanks, you need sustained damage output, not this petty burst crap. I'll let other good players say I'm a tard for this, but I think Sion should typically be Sheen -> mercs -> Survivability Item -> Zeal -> Survivability Item -> Triforce -> Tank Spam + maybe LW/Atma's. Doing this lets you have his strong early game (playing much the way straight AP Sion would play it) and then fluidly transition into a reasonably strong late game. This is assuming they have something in the way of squishies though. No squishies, go straight tanking + LW/Atma's, fuck the sheen opening and triforce late game. As far as abilities are concerned I've never seen the point in leveling his stun past 1 unless you're all in on AP, so I'd do stun -> enrage -> shield -> shield -> shield -> ult and then prioritize like this: ult > Shield > Enrage > Stun.
Sorta an aside: I still can't figure out why everyone likes to dump on Triforce. Yes, the item's all over the place, but if you want everything it's giving, it's very efficient at it. No one argues that Sheen, Phage or Zeal is terrible (well, I guess some argue about Sheen, but they're wrong, item's still fine), and then for 300 more you get:
2 AD
5 AP
5% Attack Speed
2% Crit Chance
4% Movespeed
50 Mana
75 Health
Phage Proc Slow increased from 30% to 35%
Sheen Proc Damage increased from 80% to 130%, also if the tooltips are correct, Triforces proc does not have the 3 second CD that Sheen's has.
zzzzz, w/e... on a character like Sion, I still think it's a really balanced 1-stop-shop for all your offensive needs, both burst and sustained. Then again I think Malady's fine on TF so don't mind me, herpdederp.
EDIT: and oh yea, I waltz on out of Galio's Explosion radius with Merc Treads like it's my job, lol. I'm not a fan of triforce on anyone but poppy and blitz, and actually I don't think I've ever seen any Sion get it, I guess it would be fine for a more aggressive hybrid Sion than mine but I don't like the random slow especially on a char with such a slow attack rate, even if raised by Zeal. The main reason I'd consider triforce is for the movement speed % increase which is beastly and I try to aim for on any character I play (mostly by getting lichbane or FoN). Lichbane>Triforce imo on sion, you have more tanking capabilities, the % movement increase, the proc which is great for your right click and a dash of magic resist which coupled with merc treads (and mr/18 blues in my case) gives you enough MR to survive the mild annoyance of a couple nukers after you popped shield. And ofc Lichbane makes your shield stronger, which just makes it nearly mandatory on Ahnold.
The issue with Lichbane is that it's all-in on AP. If you don't invest in AP, you don't get enough bang for your buck on the proc. This means you gotta buy other AP shit which further hampers your ability to buy the actual tanking items which noticeably increase your survivability. The reason I like triforce on him is that it really balances out his offense (aids his ability/burst damage as well as supplying balanced bonuses to crit/AS/damage to go with his innate balanced attack from Enrage (dmg) and ult (AS)) and you can work slowly towards it getting decent benefits as you build up your Armor/mRes.
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Though you only need like 60 external AP for it to be better than triforce proc
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I'm fine without, bear in mind that I pump E which makes up for the lost damage from having AP from the sole lichbane proccing itself.
The CDR from glacial allows me to have a full cycle of using the lichbane procs every 3 secs, without rushing for it I would lose 1 or 2 procs per teamfights. I basically make up for the lost proc damage with more procs. Which is a similiar concept to why I get wit's end every now and then.
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that's 1200 gold you're not spending on tanking items. and that's just to break even with the proc, which is hard to weigh vs. the sustained damage difference between Triforce and Lichbane + AP. You really want more AP if you're going that route to maximize your burst, which is a fine way to go, but I just don't think it's what you should be doing in this metagame.
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But the point is that I'm not tanking.
If I wanted to play actual tanks I have Alistar and mumu that I don't suck with, what I'm building is a hybrid character which can do and take damage, and it's exactly what the current metagame is asking me to do: from my sheen+boots1+glacial I can pick whatever direction I want to go based not only on the matchup and how the game is going but I have an answer to all the different playstyles I might encounter.
I have the survival that an off-tank needs and the damage that allows me to chase people down and kill them within 1 stun WITH SOMEONE ELSE. I mostly duo or solo queue ranked with sion, and since he's the most versatile character in the game I can do whatever is needed, right now being bulky, having a stun and doing some damage is generally the best option for me.
My shield allows me to tank some damage which is reduced by armor and mr, in a quick mid-lane push where other sions would shield->stun->hit twice I shield->stun->hit 4-5 times and maybe shield again while being able to keep pushing or pulling back. It's about versatility which I think is the most overlooked feat of Sion.
You are advocating an AP/AD build, juicyfruit is favoring the AP burst one, what I am doing is taking the AP/Tank sion and giving him a right-click which is comparably as annoying as that of a tryndamere.
As for anyone advocating tanking Sion (I haven't found anyone doing so since lv 15 lol) or anyways building Sion like an actual tank you will find that he lacks the tools to pull damage onto himself.
His stun is his only disable, his shield either gets upgraded through ranks and items and it absorbs and deals no damage. The dealing damage part is extremely important, since for your opponents it represents avoidable damage and it is your one tool to divert their attention.
The shield's CD is triggered upon bursting it which prevents you to keep the threat on, this is why I feel like building him as a tank is the only real way to waste him as a character. Other than going GRB hybrid.
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is AP or AD kat more viable?
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I give up
EDIT: both Kats are viable. AD's a better poker. AP's got a better ult and survivability. Try your hand at both and see what suites you. Most newer players find AD builds easier to handle though.
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Man I really don't like the Garen change because it's one that wont actually make too much of a difference until next patch when Riot nerfs him again to the point where he's useless. It's gonna happen... just like what they did to Pantheon.
Big ol' Shen nerf too for some reason.
Hahaha slight Kassadin buff.
Oh and there is way too much talk about "the current metagame" and Cho'gath here. Gaddam.
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On August 25 2010 04:55 Chrispy wrote:
Man I really don't like the Garen change because it's one that wont actually make too much of a difference until next patch when Riot nerfs him again to the point where he's useless. It's gonna happen... just like what they did to Pantheon.
Big ol' Shen nerf too for some reason.
Hahaha slight Kassadin buff.
Oh and there is way too much talk about "the current metagame" and Cho'gath here. Gaddam.
Well we have the server's best chogath(s), it seems reasonable to waste time gloating instead of playing.
Also we should seriously start some commentated LoL streams, with the community being so big it could be quite fun.
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Garen nerf is actually pretty annoying, but I agree, they'll still bury him in a couple patches.
Shen nerf is both because Shen is good (he's better than Pantheon goddamnit Utah, lol) and because people like to bitch about him. I don't actually think it'll hurt that bad.
Kassadin buff is loltacular. Great one, let's buff the best caster who is already impossible to kill by making him harder to kill -_-. It's alright though because 99.9% of Kass players don't understand that the only reason they ever die is because they choose to, so people will continue to suck with the character and Utah will continue to be able to romp all over everyone with that broken ass character.
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kickass, first loss of the day because i have to 2v1 a heimer/garen lane and taric/kennen cant beat soraka/gragas lolololol
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On August 25 2010 04:55 Chrispy wrote:
Man I really don't like the Garen change because it's one that wont actually make too much of a difference until next patch when Riot nerfs him again to the point where he's useless. It's gonna happen... just like what they did to Pantheon.
Big ol' Shen nerf too for some reason.
Hahaha slight Kassadin buff.
Oh and there is way too much talk about "the current metagame" and Cho'gath here. Gaddam.
There are a lot more cho'gath players in liquidparty than in the rest of the internet. And Even me being the number 7(?) cho'gath from teamliquid I've yet to see one on the other team I don't soundly thrash. (all 3 times it's happened)
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On August 25 2010 04:54 Rice wrote:
is AP or AD kat more viable?
right now AP fits the style of tanky champs with lots of dps better then AD kat which is kind of a glass cannon
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On August 25 2010 05:02 Phrost wrote:
kickass, first loss of the day because i have to 2v1 a heimer/garen lane and taric/kennen cant beat soraka/gragas lolololol
that's like Nasus's wet dream 1v2 lane. automatically push into my spirit fire with no reliable hard CC, muwahahahahahaha.
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atm after semi quitting udyr (i have a curse of losing despite thinking i did good with him) I am now on a 5 game winning streak with yi, and a 11 game win streak total
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On August 25 2010 02:46 Mogwai wrote:
I don't really have a fancy defense for sheen on Sion, but the gist of it is that between your nukes and ult, you can get 2-3 procs of it in a typical "Sion is here and you are dead" fight. AP Sion is all about the 3-4 second burst and Sheen is a really cost effective way to jack that up + it builds into lichbane later which really lets you explode people. Essentially, the way AP sion plays only lets him get 2-3 auto-attacks in anyway, and Sheen is the best way to jack up the damage on those 2-3 attacks.
Now, that being said, I think AP Sion just isn't the way you should build him. At least not in the metagame. AP Sion is a monster insta-gibber, but you basically don't have any good ways to spec for real survivability through AP investments and if you're fighting a bunch of tanks, you need sustained damage output, not this petty burst crap. I'll let other good players say I'm a tard for this, but I think Sion should typically be Sheen -> mercs -> Survivability Item -> Zeal -> Survivability Item -> Triforce -> Tank Spam + maybe LW/Atma's. Doing this lets you have his strong early game (playing much the way straight AP Sion would play it) and then fluidly transition into a reasonably strong late game. This is assuming they have something in the way of squishies though. No squishies, go straight tanking + LW/Atma's, fuck the sheen opening and triforce late game. As far as abilities are concerned I've never seen the point in leveling his stun past 1 unless you're all in on AP, so I'd do stun -> enrage -> shield -> shield -> shield -> ult and then prioritize like this: ult > Shield > Enrage > Stun.
Sorta an aside: I still can't figure out why everyone likes to dump on Triforce. Yes, the item's all over the place, but if you want everything it's giving, it's very efficient at it. No one argues that Sheen, Phage or Zeal is terrible (well, I guess some argue about Sheen, but they're wrong, item's still fine), and then for 300 more you get:
2 AD
5 AP
5% Attack Speed
2% Crit Chance
4% Movespeed
50 Mana
75 Health
Phage Proc Slow increased from 30% to 35%
Sheen Proc Damage increased from 80% to 130%, also if the tooltips are correct, Triforces proc does not have the 3 second CD that Sheen's has.
zzzzz, w/e... on a character like Sion, I still think it's a really balanced 1-stop-shop for all your offensive needs, both burst and sustained. Then again I think Malady's fine on TF so don't mind me, herpdederp.
EDIT: and oh yea, I waltz on out of Galio's Explosion radius with Merc Treads like it's my job, lol.
I love tri-force, probably one of the many underused items.
I personally laugh at anyone that gets a malady (especially on tf, almost as funny as a SotD), waste of precious gold 
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yet many of the best AD oriented TFs I've seen do shit like 2-3 d-blades -> SotD. *shrugs*, most items aren't as bad as we convince ourselves they are.
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I lol'd at urgot's 2nd skin "Giant Enemy Crabgot"
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i'm "retired" but i can't help but poke in here and disagree with shit. i've just grown so used to it haha.
On August 25 2010 05:31 Mogwai wrote:
yet many of the best AD oriented TFs I've seen do shit like 2-3 d-blades -> SotD. *shrugs*, most items aren't as bad as we convince ourselves they are. jiji used to run SotD and Starks for mad armor pen. also, it was annoying when your gate+gold combo got dodged zzz.
katarina sucks balls atm. i honestly think i was at least a top 10 katarina (maybe in contention for #1 with solanir being MIA and kobe playing other heroes). basically, i was almost as good with her as i was with chogath (because i'm the #1 CHOGATH). but even then i wasn't encouraged to play kat in my WCG matches nor did i really want to. this tank metagame is killing her utility since she relies on being able to rack up assists/kills midfight in order to voracity chain.
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agreed, Kat's a poor choice currently.
I think I'm going to try Tanked Fate tonight.
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EPT
