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Theorycraft from a mediocre player. Much of this is not specific to LoL. Looking for feedback/discussion.
One can invest in DPS or EHP. In a 1v1 fight, ignoring skills, CC, etc., the winner will be the champ with higher DPSxEHP(1). Let's call this stat "Combat Value" (CV).
The metagame is defined by the ability of positioning to influence fights. This is affected both by player skills/discovery of tricks as well as by the champion pool. When positioning is extremely effective, damage can be most successfully routed to chosen characters. In this case, a team with low CVs is optimal(2). When positioning is less effective, all champions may be targeted freely, making teams with high CVs optimal(3).
The current metagame is leaning heavily towards CV-oriented champions. This indicates that maintaining positioning is extraordinarily difficult -- high-CV champions ("off-tanks" in the vernacular) have become so good at bypassing high-EHP champions ("tanks") and catching high-DPS champions ("squishies") that they dominate the meta-game.
A future meta-game shift will occur when a new mechanic, item, or champion makes positioning powerful enough that high-CV champions are no longer optimal.
Footnotes:
(1) Each champion in this situation lives for a number of seconds equal to their EHP divided by their opponent's DPS. You want to live for more seconds. Multiply by both champions' DPS and you get "whoever has higher DPSxEHP wins".
(2) In this case, each team can effectively distribute incoming damage amongst its members. As a simplifying example, consider a game in which you and another player each have two characters. Each character has 10 points to spend -- at least one on health, at least one on damage. Each point of health yields 10HP. Each round, both players must distribute damage among their characters equal to the sum of the other player's characters' damage. The optimal characters are 10HP/9DMG and 90HP/1DMG -- no other team will beat these two. This team's CV is 1*9 + 9*1 = 18, the minimum CV possible.
(3) In this case, each team can effectively distribute its damage output amongst members of the enemy team. Consider the simplified game above with this rule changed. The optimal characters are 50HP/5DMG and 50HP/5DMG -- again, this team always wins. This team's CV is 5*5 + 5*5 = 50, the maximum CV possible.
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Trying to break things down like that is perhaps why you are admittedly mediocre at the game? Games like this don't work in a lab, they aren't an MMO raid against AI, and in fact, trying to mathcraft the whole game might be why the balance is so horrid.
You've also completely missed one major point. The 'off-tanks' are also the 'tanks' and are also 'dps,' there is no reason to theorycraft beyond that. There are champions in the game that fulfill almost every major role the game has, by themselves(Amumu probably the absolute beacon example for this, the only thing he lacks is burst damage, and if you attack him enough tantrum actually fulfills that too).
Also positioning does matter in this game, a lot, that's why these tanky champs are also so great, most of them have fantastic mobility or repositioning skills(bandage toss, bear stance, ww ult, whatever singed's ult is called, etc) or the ones that lack that, make up for it by having extremely powerful tools to mess with enemy positioning instead(wither, standing anywhere with fury of the sands activated, flip, sticky goo, curse of the sad mummy, bear stance again, ww ult again, bandage toss again, starting to see a pattern...).
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On August 24 2010 09:06 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Guys I don't really play ezreal but what do you think about opening triple longsword on him (brutalizer -> longsword -> phage) after meki? I kinda raped with it, it gave me enough damage to farm my way into a BF sword. Anyone got any advice on playing ezreal? I mean I know the basics but just roughly. Skill order/masteries/tips/build for AD would be appreciated. Thanks!
*shrugs* i used to do triple LS when I couldn't afford Bruta/Soto on my first B with Panth. It's legit but it's only for when you can't quite afford the bruta.
skills are easy qeqwqr -> q > r > e > w
runes are ArPen Red + Quint, mp5pl Yellow + blue
um, items are Bruta -> Bloodthirster spam
masteries X/X/21 IMO, but if you have an aggressive playstyle, you'd probably do 21/0/9.
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On August 24 2010 09:46 red_ wrote:
Trying to break things down like that is perhaps why you are admittedly mediocre at the game? Games like this don't work in a lab, they aren't an MMO raid against AI, and in fact, trying to mathcraft the whole game might be why the balance is so horrid.
But...but...my mathcraft says mundo should be the undisputed best champ!!1
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On August 24 2010 04:47 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 04:39 Mogwai wrote:On August 24 2010 04:34 Orpheos wrote:
i love playing with singed on my smurf because he becomes so much more silly when people dont know how much dmg he puts out and just 5v1 chase you around. im always surprised by how tanky(read: invincible) he is with just a RoA in the midgame.
oh and i loved the video uta has on youtube where turkey gets like infinity kills 1v2 and 1v3 with singed, always coming out with 5%hp. and smash is just cackling all game. epic I just always find Singed hilarious. A good singed makes me wanna cringe or cheer. Allways depends which team he is on lol, I'd love to be able to play him because its soo much fun doing it. I just do it with mixed success 
I just bought Singed with my hard earned IP! How is Singed best built? Keeping in mind I'm only level 12 and can only curb stomp in unranked games 
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On August 24 2010 09:51 ATeddyBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 04:47 Iplaythings wrote:On August 24 2010 04:39 Mogwai wrote:On August 24 2010 04:34 Orpheos wrote:
i love playing with singed on my smurf because he becomes so much more silly when people dont know how much dmg he puts out and just 5v1 chase you around. im always surprised by how tanky(read: invincible) he is with just a RoA in the midgame.
oh and i loved the video uta has on youtube where turkey gets like infinity kills 1v2 and 1v3 with singed, always coming out with 5%hp. and smash is just cackling all game. epic I just always find Singed hilarious. A good singed makes me wanna cringe or cheer. Allways depends which team he is on lol, I'd love to be able to play him because its soo much fun doing it. I just do it with mixed success I just bought Singed with my hard earned IP! How is Singed best built? Keeping in mind I'm only level 12 and can only curb stomp in unranked games
Build RoA, win game.
I'm not sure there are steps beyond this, it is fabled that you could perhaps build more RoA's with your trollface on, or typical tanky items proper for the game in progress.
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On August 24 2010 09:51 ATeddyBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 04:47 Iplaythings wrote:On August 24 2010 04:39 Mogwai wrote:On August 24 2010 04:34 Orpheos wrote:
i love playing with singed on my smurf because he becomes so much more silly when people dont know how much dmg he puts out and just 5v1 chase you around. im always surprised by how tanky(read: invincible) he is with just a RoA in the midgame.
oh and i loved the video uta has on youtube where turkey gets like infinity kills 1v2 and 1v3 with singed, always coming out with 5%hp. and smash is just cackling all game. epic I just always find Singed hilarious. A good singed makes me wanna cringe or cheer. Allways depends which team he is on lol, I'd love to be able to play him because its soo much fun doing it. I just do it with mixed success I just bought Singed with my hard earned IP! How is Singed best built? Keeping in mind I'm only level 12 and can only curb stomp in unranked games
Caster tank, in low level games, stacking rod of ages with a boots of swiftness will get you pretty far. For level 1, get fling, then poison. So EQQWQR, then, R>Q>E>W
most people start with sapphire crystal health pot, farm by turning on Q and running through the creeps. for low levels you'll want the 9 points in defense for nimbleness, higher levels you may want the movement bonus in utility. For me I like to get teleport as a summoner skill so i can bpill back and get my boots asap then port back to lane. Singed early game is all about outrunning opponents to that end, Ghost is also pretty much required, turn on poison, ghost+fling into poison, run in front of them.
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RoA isnt always necessary on singed, ive had good luck going a quick rylais instead, then building sunfires.
you can really build him completely based off of the other teams composition.
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RoAs are good, Rylais is good, Sunfires are good, Frozen Heart and Banshees are good. Get what's needed. Just remember to always rambo in like a madman, though.
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I'm just not finding LoL that fun anymore. It's only fun when I play with people I know IRL (translation: when my brother plays with me). Even then I don't feel like a great player. I don't like the F2P system and grinding. I dislike dealing with allegations of noobishness and e-peen strutting.
I tried playing ARAM for more lulz as people would have it, but ARAM isn't fun because 80% of the time one team or the other is completely screwed over by team comp and/or leavers.
I also suck at last hitting with Nidalee and sucking sucks.
I wonder if without the F2P system and the grind LoL would be gathering dust on my hard drive just like TF2 is.
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On August 24 2010 09:06 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Guys I don't really play ezreal but what do you think about opening triple longsword on him (brutalizer -> longsword -> phage) after meki? I kinda raped with it, it gave me enough damage to farm my way into a BF sword. Anyone got any advice on playing ezreal? I mean I know the basics but just roughly. Skill order/masteries/tips/build for AD would be appreciated. Thanks!
Currently if you play him glass cannon and are able to effectively predict enemy movement (forward and backward) then you can snowball the game very quickly.
I go 21/0/9 masteries with ARP marks and quints, mp5 seals and glyphs
For items I start with doran's blade and a health potion
First trip to base I buy boots and a longsword or two
Eventually build brutalizer, 1-2 bf swords, then finish the mercury treads, and stack bf swords until you dont have any more inventory space. Then turn 2 into bloodthirsters and one into an infinity edge. If the game is still going sell your doran's blade and buy a banshee's veil.
For skills I go
QEQEQR then R>Q>E>W
I would changet that if they have significant physical dps or extremely quickly attacking dps.
Use auto attack to harass early and push the enemy away from their creeps, it makes it 110% easier to line up mystic shots that way.
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On August 24 2010 10:08 phyvo wrote:
I'm just not finding LoL that fun anymore. It's only fun when I play with people I know IRL (translation: when my brother plays with me). Even then I don't feel like a great player. I don't like the F2P system and grinding. I dislike dealing with allegations of noobishness and e-peen strutting.
I tried playing ARAM for more lulz as people would have it, but ARAM isn't fun because 80% of the time one team or the other is completely screwed over by team comp and/or leavers.
I also suck at last hitting with Nidalee and sucking sucks.
I wonder if without the F2P system and the grind LoL would be gathering dust on my hard drive just like TF2 is. holy fuck. this guy knows me way too fucking well.
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Personally i feel rylais isnt necessary, it doesnt give you mana, and you already have a slow, i prefer banshees before rylais since it has mana on it. If opponents are caster heavy I get a force of nature after that, if they are dps heavy sunfires are the way to go. between ghost and your ult, should be able to outrun basically anyone to fling them and the range on your slow is pretty good too.
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On August 24 2010 10:09 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 10:08 phyvo wrote:
I'm just not finding LoL that fun anymore. It's only fun when I play with people I know IRL (translation: when my brother plays with me). Even then I don't feel like a great player. I don't like the F2P system and grinding. I dislike dealing with allegations of noobishness and e-peen strutting.
I tried playing ARAM for more lulz as people would have it, but ARAM isn't fun because 80% of the time one team or the other is completely screwed over by team comp and/or leavers.
I also suck at last hitting with Nidalee and sucking sucks.
I wonder if without the F2P system and the grind LoL would be gathering dust on my hard drive just like TF2 is. holy fuck. this guy knows me way too fucking well.
Ya you are pretty fucking bad...
Also I really think the 'grind' gets at me more than anything else in this game. All the other shit I might complain about is present in pretty much any multiplayer game(balance issues, people you don't like for whatever reason, other shit I'm just not thinking of right now). I would enjoy LoL a lot more(especially with my champion ADD where I can't pick a main) if I could just like, play the champs, rune how I wanted, without grinding either 1000 games or throwing down 100 bones.
If HoN and LoL switched payment plans(obviously completely impossible this long into the game's retail life, I don't have that unrealistic expectation) I'd probably be having a much better time playing it.
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8751 Posts
On August 24 2010 10:11 kdgns wrote:
Personally i feel rylais isnt necessary, it doesnt give you mana, and you already have a slow, i prefer banshees before rylais since it has mana on it. If opponents are caster heavy I get a force of nature after that, if they are dps heavy sunfires are the way to go. between ghost and your ult, should be able to outrun basically anyone to fling them and the range on your slow is pretty good too.
More AP!!! RoA instead of Banshee's! Abyssal instead of FoN!!
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On August 24 2010 10:09 Phrost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 09:06 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Guys I don't really play ezreal but what do you think about opening triple longsword on him (brutalizer -> longsword -> phage) after meki? I kinda raped with it, it gave me enough damage to farm my way into a BF sword. Anyone got any advice on playing ezreal? I mean I know the basics but just roughly. Skill order/masteries/tips/build for AD would be appreciated. Thanks! Currently if you play him glass cannon and are able to effectively predict enemy movement (forward and backward) then you can snowball the game very quickly. I go 21/0/9 masteries with ARP marks and quints, mp5 seals and glyphs For items I start with doran's blade and a health potion First trip to base I buy boots and a longsword or two Eventually build brutalizer, 1-2 bf swords, then finish the mercury treads, and stack bf swords until you dont have any more inventory space. Then turn 2 into bloodthirsters and one into an infinity edge. If the game is still going sell your doran's blade and buy a banshee's veil. For skills I go QEQEQR then R>Q>E>W I would changet that if they have significant physical dps or extremely quickly attacking dps. Use auto attack to harass early and push the enemy away from their creeps, it makes it 110% easier to line up mystic shots that way.
do you get ghostblade with brutalizer ?
i usually level w-> e
does same amount of dmg, and u dont have to get as close as u do with the e, and it gives a little AoE attack speed?
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On August 24 2010 09:46 red_ wrote:
Trying to break things down like that is perhaps why you are admittedly mediocre at the game? Seems unlikely. Games like this don't work in a lab, What, if you take LoL into a lab it disappears? they aren't an MMO raid against AI ...and?, and in fact, trying to mathcraft the whole game might be why the balance is so horrid. Couldn't say.
You've also completely missed one major point. The 'off-tanks' are also the 'tanks' and are also 'dps,' there is no reason to theorycraft beyond that.
OK, I asked for discussion, not dismissal. If you're going to dismiss what I say, however, at least have decent reasoning. I love amumu, but his burst isn't close to Annie, his AoE damage is nothing near Fiddlesticks, his single-target output isn't even in the same league as Ezreal... He's also not really an "off-tank". Offtanks like Xin and Vlad tend to have more damage output than true-tanks like Amumu. You can argue the difference isn't large enough to justify them, but that's a separate topic. There are champions in the game that fulfill almost every major role the game has, by themselves(Amumu probably the absolute beacon example for this, the only thing he lacks is burst damage, and if you attack him enough tantrum actually fulfills that too).
Also positioning does matter in this game, a lot, that's why these tanky champs are also so great, most of them have fantastic mobility or repositioning skills(bandage toss, bear stance, ww ult, whatever singed's ult is called, etc) or the ones that lack that, make up for it by having extremely powerful tools to mess with enemy positioning instead(wither, standing anywhere with fury of the sands activated, flip, sticky goo, curse of the sad mummy, bear stance again, ww ult again, bandage toss again, starting to see a pattern...).
This is sorta the point. It's very difficult to use these skills to keep high-CV champs off your squishies for long enough to matter, but it's INCREDIBLY EASY to use them to get your own high-CV champs onto enemy squishies. So...you're agreeing with me.
Anyway, it sounds like you've dismissed any sort of analysis of the game entirely and are uninterested in discussing this; I'm not really sure why you bothered to respond.
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On August 24 2010 10:44 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 09:46 red_ wrote:
Trying to break things down like that is perhaps why you are admittedly mediocre at the game? Seems unlikely. What, if you take LoL into a lab it disappears? ...and? Show nested quote +, and in fact, trying to mathcraft the whole game might be why the balance is so horrid. Couldn't say. Show nested quote +
You've also completely missed one major point. The 'off-tanks' are also the 'tanks' and are also 'dps,' there is no reason to theorycraft beyond that.
OK, I asked for discussion, not dismissal. If you're going to dismiss what I say, however, at least have decent reasoning. I love amumu, but his burst isn't close to Annie, his AoE damage is nothing near Fiddlesticks, his single-target output isn't even in the same league as Ezreal... He's also not really an "off-tank". Offtanks like Xin and Vlad tend to have more damage output than true-tanks like Amumu. You can argue the difference isn't large enough to justify them, but that's a separate topic. Show nested quote + There are champions in the game that fulfill almost every major role the game has, by themselves(Amumu probably the absolute beacon example for this, the only thing he lacks is burst damage, and if you attack him enough tantrum actually fulfills that too).
Also positioning does matter in this game, a lot, that's why these tanky champs are also so great, most of them have fantastic mobility or repositioning skills(bandage toss, bear stance, ww ult, whatever singed's ult is called, etc) or the ones that lack that, make up for it by having extremely powerful tools to mess with enemy positioning instead(wither, standing anywhere with fury of the sands activated, flip, sticky goo, curse of the sad mummy, bear stance again, ww ult again, bandage toss again, starting to see a pattern...). This is sorta the point. It's very difficult to use these skills to keep high-CV champs off your squishies for long enough to matter, but it's INCREDIBLY EASY to use them to get your own high-CV champs onto enemy squishies. So...you're agreeing with me. Anyway, it sounds like you've dismissed any sort of analysis of the game entirely and are uninterested in discussing this; I'm not really sure why you bothered to respond.
he brought up a really good point, idk why people arent taking it seriously.
the characters that do more damage and have more health are more powerful.
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Newsflash:
If you do damage, and don't die, you're pretty strong.
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EPT
