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On August 11 2010 04:16 barbsq wrote:
There are certain heroes i'd much rather have HG on than an SS, mainly being fiddle, karthus, and vlad, (esp vlad, i like hg quite a bit on him) simply because the way i play them involves me in the middle of everything, and chances are i will die at some point, and hope that i achieve something for our team. With an SS on either of these heroes, i always feel that tendency to try to skirt the edges and avoid the greater part of the conflict and just try to snipe some heroes for stacks, which gimps heroes that seem to clearly (in my eyes) be centered towards being the centre of teamfights.
Other than that, however, i think ss is > than hg on the vast majority of casters
You die with Vlad? Honestly, Vlad is the one hero that I simply cannot kill, even if it's 5v1. If you get a decent amount of CDR you can pool out of everything. I just recently had a game where we were doing well (slightly behind in team kills, but far ahead in towers, had each inhib down at least once), but as soon as Vlad hit 20 stacks on his SS and got his ZR up (dunno what else he had, he definitely was well equipped though), he became unkillable (like he was all game long) and was singlehandedly deciding every teamfight. We killed him once during the whole 20 or so minutes between getting 20 stacks and them winning the game.
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On August 11 2010 04:51 red_ wrote:
Mog have you checked Locicero's Panth build? He's apparently having plenty of success with him at 1700+
Fuck Locicero, he just duo queues with 1300~ ranks and pubstomps on me at 1500~.
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Yea some of the champion synergies are unbelievably difficult or annoying to lane against.
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On August 11 2010 04:52 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 04:16 barbsq wrote:
There are certain heroes i'd much rather have HG on than an SS, mainly being fiddle, karthus, and vlad, (esp vlad, i like hg quite a bit on him) simply because the way i play them involves me in the middle of everything, and chances are i will die at some point, and hope that i achieve something for our team. With an SS on either of these heroes, i always feel that tendency to try to skirt the edges and avoid the greater part of the conflict and just try to snipe some heroes for stacks, which gimps heroes that seem to clearly (in my eyes) be centered towards being the centre of teamfights.
Other than that, however, i think ss is > than hg on the vast majority of casters You die with Vlad? Honestly, Vlad is the one hero that I simply cannot kill, even if it's 5v1. If you get a decent amount of CDR you can pool out of everything. I just recently had a game where we were doing well (slightly behind in team kills, but far ahead in towers, had each inhib down at least once), but as soon as Vlad hit 20 stacks on his SS and got his ZR up (dunno what else he had, he definitely was well equipped though), he became unkillable (like he was all game long) and was singlehandedly deciding every teamfight. We killed him once during the whole 20 or so minutes between getting 20 stacks and them winning the game.
eh, wasnt really saying i die a whole lot with vlad, just saying that hg fits a bit better than ss in terms of mindset. with snowball items, you are significantly less likely to take big risks and try to start an initiation (unless ur a hero with uber escapeness i.e. shaco, kass ezreal). Also i think hg fits quite well into how vlad works, due to the +hp, +ap, and mpen all giving good benefits for him.
edit: infact, ive found early hg + svisage into rylais works quite well for me as vlad, esp since he is a fairly decent farmer early game and can exert a reasonably good amount of lane control early game
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Haunting Guise might be amazing on Veigar.
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On August 11 2010 04:41 Brees wrote:
i dont really find kassadin's snare that strong at all personally, nor any other slow. Slow is the weakest form of CC. I dont think it would bother tank teams too much since they operate as jungle roamers, not pokers. unless you also have a full tank team, you will get off 2 force pulses at the most in a teamfight which is only 600 + AP damage, all tanks lol @ that damage before void staff(and some even after)
In a teamfight, when the Kassadin is initiating (not the other way around) the snare is annoying. Ashe isn't as good because 1) her volley is weaker (damage-wise and cooldown-wise) 2) she can't initiate like Kassadin because if she stands 2 inches from your tank team she's pretty fucked 3) she can't snare your tanks twice and then go after your carry while bumping back to snare tanks every so often (because she'll just be ff'd and die) and 4) she exerts nowhere near the map control - if you're dragoning early on and your team is at 40% hp there's no threat of Ashe popping in from cross-wall nuking half your team and snaring them and then running your entire team down - Kassadin does.
What ends up happening is that for ~35 minutes Kassadin shuts down tank farm pretty nicely, and after that he becomes like Janna (CCing your tanks) while bursting your carry. And if he's fed he'll just kill your tanks too, because 500 damage AoE snare nukes (pre-MR adjust) every 3 seconds is kinda nasty and takes its toll.
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On August 11 2010 05:10 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 04:41 Brees wrote:
i dont really find kassadin's snare that strong at all personally, nor any other slow. Slow is the weakest form of CC. I dont think it would bother tank teams too much since they operate as jungle roamers, not pokers. unless you also have a full tank team, you will get off 2 force pulses at the most in a teamfight which is only 600 + AP damage, all tanks lol @ that damage before void staff(and some even after) In a teamfight, when the Kassadin is initiating (not the other way around) the snare is annoying. Ashe isn't as good because 1) her volley is weaker (damage-wise and cooldown-wise) 2) she can't initiate like Kassadin because if she stands 2 inches from your tank team she's pretty fucked 3) she can't snare your tanks twice and then go after your carry while bumping back to snare tanks every so often (because she'll just be ff'd and die) and 4) she exerts nowhere near the map control - if you're dragoning early on and your team is at 40% hp there's no threat of Ashe popping in from cross-wall nuking half your team and snaring them and then running your entire team down - Kassadin does. What ends up happening is that for ~35 minutes Kassadin shuts down tank farm pretty nicely, and after that he becomes like Janna (CCing your tanks) while bursting your carry. And if he's fed he'll just kill your tanks too, because 500 damage AoE snare nukes (pre-MR adjust) every 3 seconds is kinda nasty and takes its toll.
Agree with everything except #2, ashe arrow is fantastic initiation imo, esp if it hits the right person.
edit: also its cooldown is so insanely low, that you can easily have it available whenever its needed. Saw an ashe with cooldown glyphs+seals and blue buff manage to get 2 arrows in 1 fight
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On ryze I've been building tear -> sorc boots -> SS -> rylais which I consider a pretty horrible build.
So to change it up, I'm thinking about adding in archangels, RoA, or zonyas. By the time I get mejais I have mild to no mana problems due to mp5/lvl runes and masteries. It doesn't bother me to wait for extra levels.
Should I get Archangels anyway for the mana/ap bonus at this point or get a NLR to build zonya's later? Should I build Archangels before SS?
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Archangels is very core on ryze, the boost in mana means a boost in his q, which is his only singletarget nuke, and a very strong one at that. Though im not nearly the best ryze player, i would recommend roa -> tear -> (note these two are largely interchangeable in terms of when to buy parts) ->mejais if you feel comfortable with it -> archangels -> ??? here it gets fuzzy, since you will want some defensive items (mybe zhonyas will cover that, mybe not) or maybe some mpen sorts of items, or mybe just stack archs and be done with it.
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ECA is one of the best initiating skills, yes, I know. But hers is an offensive initiate (you push into THEIR lines) while Kassadin's baiting/poking initiate is probably one of the best push-pull initiates - you force their team to make a unified, timed decision on whether to fight or withdraw... and if they withdraw his 3-5 second CD pulse makes it pretty easy to grab one for either a kill or heavy damage. If they push, he has an easy step-back skill and, charges permitting, can kite down a team before they even "initiate" for some nice poke damage... and if he's got other pokers (like Ezreal) on his team it's fun times.
Edit:
The problem with tanks against Kassadin isn't so much the flat damage he's doing so much as that the constant snaring (with the crazy cooldown) really nerfs the damage THEY do, and he can position himself at will to mess with their whole team. When you've got 2-4 tanks just crawling at snail's pace for half the fight it really sucks because all you're doing is soaking up damage.
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rylai's is awful on Ryze IMO. if you're going tear, archangels is always eventually a good idea, but I doubt you should be getting it that early. Maybe grab RoA after sorc boots, then z-ring, then archangels? That makes sense to me for maximizing AP and Mana for nuking while keeping some survivability. SS seems like a bad call because you have no escape mechanics. If the other team wants you dead, you're probably gonna die, so keeping stacks seems like a nightmare.
I guess as a starting point my point would be:
mana crystal
tear
sorc shoes
RoA
z-ring
archangels.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On August 11 2010 05:10 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 04:41 Brees wrote:
i dont really find kassadin's snare that strong at all personally, nor any other slow. Slow is the weakest form of CC. I dont think it would bother tank teams too much since they operate as jungle roamers, not pokers. unless you also have a full tank team, you will get off 2 force pulses at the most in a teamfight which is only 600 + AP damage, all tanks lol @ that damage before void staff(and some even after) In a teamfight, when the Kassadin is initiating (not the other way around) the snare is annoying. Ashe isn't as good because 1) her volley is weaker (damage-wise and cooldown-wise) 2) she can't initiate like Kassadin because if she stands 2 inches from your tank team she's pretty fucked 3) she can't snare your tanks twice and then go after your carry while bumping back to snare tanks every so often (because she'll just be ff'd and die) and 4) she exerts nowhere near the map control - if you're dragoning early on and your team is at 40% hp there's no threat of Ashe popping in from cross-wall nuking half your team and snaring them and then running your entire team down - Kassadin does. What ends up happening is that for ~35 minutes Kassadin shuts down tank farm pretty nicely, and after that he becomes like Janna (CCing your tanks) while bursting your carry. And if he's fed he'll just kill your tanks too, because 500 damage AoE snare nukes (pre-MR adjust) every 3 seconds is kinda nasty and takes its toll.
unless the game has changed completely this post almost feels like a troll to me
1) ashe is complete garbage not sure why you brought her up lol
2) a squishy caster initiating on a team that is just roaming the jungle the entire game? neither the first nor the latter makes sense, you cant initiate on a tank team without being CC locked even with cleanse
3) there is no carry to burst. -all tank team-
4) not sure what ~35 minutes Kassadin shuts down tank farm pretty nicely even means
5) assuming the other team is dragoning and in a nice clump every time doesnt brighten me up to your talk either...
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On August 11 2010 05:18 barbsq wrote:
Archangels is very core on ryze, the boost in mana means a boost in his q, which is his only singletarget nuke, and a very strong one at that. Though im not nearly the best ryze player, i would recommend roa -> tear -> (note these two are largely interchangeable in terms of when to buy parts) ->mejais if you feel comfortable with it -> archangels -> ??? here it gets fuzzy, since you will want some defensive items (mybe zhonyas will cover that, mybe not) or maybe some mpen sorts of items, or mybe just stack archs and be done with it.
RoA, RoA, Zhonya, Void, Frozen Heart for Ryze imo.
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On August 11 2010 05:22 Mogwai wrote:
rylai's is awful on Ryze IMO. if you're going tear, archangels is always eventually a good idea, but I doubt you should be getting it that early. Maybe grab RoA after sorc boots, then z-ring, then archangels? That makes sense to me for maximizing AP and Mana for nuking while keeping some survivability. SS seems like a bad call because you have no escape mechanics. If the other team wants you dead, you're probably gonna die, so keeping stacks seems like a nightmare.
i always run ghost/flash with masteries so sometimes i feel ok about getting ss ^.^
also rylais is kinda cool just kus you basically get aoe slow, but yeah, doesnt really fit that well on him, esp since it lacks mana
edit: @ shikyo, i rarely find a game where i can get 2 roas in a timely manner, so this seems kinda silly, unless you're expecting a longass game
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On August 11 2010 05:26 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 05:22 Mogwai wrote:
rylai's is awful on Ryze IMO. if you're going tear, archangels is always eventually a good idea, but I doubt you should be getting it that early. Maybe grab RoA after sorc boots, then z-ring, then archangels? That makes sense to me for maximizing AP and Mana for nuking while keeping some survivability. SS seems like a bad call because you have no escape mechanics. If the other team wants you dead, you're probably gonna die, so keeping stacks seems like a nightmare. i always run ghost/flash with masteries so sometimes i feel ok about getting ss ^.^ also rylais is kinda cool just kus you basically get aoe slow, but yeah, doesnt really fit that well on him, esp since it lacks mana edit: @ shikyo, i rarely find a game where i can get 2 roas in a timely manner, so this seems kinda silly, unless you're expecting a longass game
So you can't farm 6k in 20 minutes? Well I can.
EDIT: Ryze's biggest problem is that he always dies, with double RoA he has a gigantic mana pool for Q and nice hp, with the later Frozen Heart he survives even more, gets even more Q power and now has max CDR, enabling him to do E W Q E Q in one combo, completely decimating everything. The second RoA doesn't even need to be maxed to be useful to him, and it becomes cost-effective only after like 3-4 minutes anyway.
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On August 11 2010 05:29 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 05:26 barbsq wrote:On August 11 2010 05:22 Mogwai wrote:
rylai's is awful on Ryze IMO. if you're going tear, archangels is always eventually a good idea, but I doubt you should be getting it that early. Maybe grab RoA after sorc boots, then z-ring, then archangels? That makes sense to me for maximizing AP and Mana for nuking while keeping some survivability. SS seems like a bad call because you have no escape mechanics. If the other team wants you dead, you're probably gonna die, so keeping stacks seems like a nightmare. i always run ghost/flash with masteries so sometimes i feel ok about getting ss ^.^ also rylais is kinda cool just kus you basically get aoe slow, but yeah, doesnt really fit that well on him, esp since it lacks mana edit: @ shikyo, i rarely find a game where i can get 2 roas in a timely manner, so this seems kinda silly, unless you're expecting a longass game So you can't farm 6k in 20 minutes? Well I can.
uh.... no? esp since i usually dual lane with ryze, his soloing is quite underwhelming, and his cc fits a bit better with another dualie, so i'm competing for farm.
edit: i dunno if you saw that item efficiency chart, but you basically just need 1 full roa to make archangels cost-effective, so getting 1 and getting an arch seems more effective than getting 1 roa and 1 halfassed roa
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On August 11 2010 05:29 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 05:26 barbsq wrote:On August 11 2010 05:22 Mogwai wrote:
rylai's is awful on Ryze IMO. if you're going tear, archangels is always eventually a good idea, but I doubt you should be getting it that early. Maybe grab RoA after sorc boots, then z-ring, then archangels? That makes sense to me for maximizing AP and Mana for nuking while keeping some survivability. SS seems like a bad call because you have no escape mechanics. If the other team wants you dead, you're probably gonna die, so keeping stacks seems like a nightmare. i always run ghost/flash with masteries so sometimes i feel ok about getting ss ^.^ also rylais is kinda cool just kus you basically get aoe slow, but yeah, doesnt really fit that well on him, esp since it lacks mana edit: @ shikyo, i rarely find a game where i can get 2 roas in a timely manner, so this seems kinda silly, unless you're expecting a longass game So you can't farm 6k in 20 minutes? Well I can.
A 'fast' RoA is like, 12 minutes, your typical 'I'm having a solid game but didn't get fed' RoA is closer to 15. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that if we had a sort of TL inhouse, you'd never get close to 2 RoA's at 20 minutes. Maybe you'd get 1+ a catalyst, with no boots, starting with sapphire crystal instead of doran's ring(which means you'll probably get zoned by decent players, and not get your farm, unless you're Morgana maybe?)
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On August 11 2010 05:22 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 05:10 Southlight wrote:On August 11 2010 04:41 Brees wrote:
i dont really find kassadin's snare that strong at all personally, nor any other slow. Slow is the weakest form of CC. I dont think it would bother tank teams too much since they operate as jungle roamers, not pokers. unless you also have a full tank team, you will get off 2 force pulses at the most in a teamfight which is only 600 + AP damage, all tanks lol @ that damage before void staff(and some even after) In a teamfight, when the Kassadin is initiating (not the other way around) the snare is annoying. Ashe isn't as good because 1) her volley is weaker (damage-wise and cooldown-wise) 2) she can't initiate like Kassadin because if she stands 2 inches from your tank team she's pretty fucked 3) she can't snare your tanks twice and then go after your carry while bumping back to snare tanks every so often (because she'll just be ff'd and die) and 4) she exerts nowhere near the map control - if you're dragoning early on and your team is at 40% hp there's no threat of Ashe popping in from cross-wall nuking half your team and snaring them and then running your entire team down - Kassadin does. What ends up happening is that for ~35 minutes Kassadin shuts down tank farm pretty nicely, and after that he becomes like Janna (CCing your tanks) while bursting your carry. And if he's fed he'll just kill your tanks too, because 500 damage AoE snare nukes (pre-MR adjust) every 3 seconds is kinda nasty and takes its toll. unless the game has changed completely this post almost feels like a troll to me 1) ashe is complete garbage not sure why you brought her up lol 2) a squishy caster initiating on a team that is just roaming the jungle the entire game? neither the first nor the latter makes sense, you cant initiate on a tank team without being CC locked even with cleanse 3) there is no carry to burst. -all tank team- 4) not sure what ~35 minutes Kassadin shuts down tank farm pretty nicely even means 5) assuming the other team is dragoning and in a nice clump every time doesnt brighten me up to your talk either...
1) Other people brought up Ashe when I brought up FP snarebot.
2) Kass is less squishy than most casters, something that most people are surprised by. Also it's hard to CC-lock someone with Cleanse and a teleport. If I blow my Cleanse and get CC-locked then I failed, end of story.
3) I never said you need to burst a tank team, I said you grind them down because they're just sitting there walking at people. Even Xin during his OP stage I considered really weak because I'd just snare the fucker and it'd completely take him out of the fight. It was actually kinda funny.
4) Map control if I'm mid (harder to do when I'm solo top QQ), I've had fun games when someone else also wards that we just ward their jungle and I go piss junglers off, because I kill neutrals pretty fast and I can escape really easily. Also my speed at getting from point A to point B (via avoiding terrain) means if my jungler harasses their jungler I can generally get there faster than anyone else if I'm on alert.
5) They don't need to be bunched? There's only a handful of things you can do if you're dragoning. The first is to fight, at which point you automatically bunch up (especially with a lot of melee) unless you somehow coordinate shit so that only one tank actually attacks Kassadin at once, in which case it's up to my skill vs your team's skill when it comes to positioning pulse. Or you run in the direction of one of the exits (golem ramp, mid/golem, grass, bot), and for better or for worse FP's fat AoE covers like 75% of river if I hit it perpendicular (true story) so you have to be really fucking spread and really fast to not get at least a couple people snared by me. Or you can panic and split up, which is also just fine by me. Assuming pullage and real paranoia they've got one guy actually tanking the dragon, two ranged near the golem ramp and at least one guy watching mid. This is "clumped enough" for me, mainly because I only need to snare one guy to have done my job.
Or what scenario did you have in mind?
Edit:
I mean, I don't get your #5. Hi, you're dragoning. Hi, Kassadin pops up and snares one of your guys, starting the fight. Your team has 1 second to decide whether to run, or fight. If you run, you've got at least one guy that's pretty fucked. Which is, honestly, a fine trade whether you got dragon or not. More-often-than-not my team also has CC, though, so I can snare, then snare someone further up (no cleanse on snare because I'll null the guy and let ppl catch up to get him).
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On August 11 2010 05:32 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 05:29 Shikyo wrote:On August 11 2010 05:26 barbsq wrote:On August 11 2010 05:22 Mogwai wrote:
rylai's is awful on Ryze IMO. if you're going tear, archangels is always eventually a good idea, but I doubt you should be getting it that early. Maybe grab RoA after sorc boots, then z-ring, then archangels? That makes sense to me for maximizing AP and Mana for nuking while keeping some survivability. SS seems like a bad call because you have no escape mechanics. If the other team wants you dead, you're probably gonna die, so keeping stacks seems like a nightmare. i always run ghost/flash with masteries so sometimes i feel ok about getting ss ^.^ also rylais is kinda cool just kus you basically get aoe slow, but yeah, doesnt really fit that well on him, esp since it lacks mana edit: @ shikyo, i rarely find a game where i can get 2 roas in a timely manner, so this seems kinda silly, unless you're expecting a longass game So you can't farm 6k in 20 minutes? Well I can. A 'fast' RoA is like, 12 minutes, your typical 'I'm having a solid game but didn't get fed' RoA is closer to 15. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that if we had a sort of TL inhouse, you'd never get close to 2 RoA's at 20 minutes. Maybe you'd get 1+ a catalyst, with no boots, starting with sapphire crystal instead of doran's ring(which means you'll probably get zoned by decent players, and not get your farm, unless you're Morgana maybe?)
You get quite a bit of gold from the early kills Ryze should get and the second one doesn't need to be any faster than your Archangels or any other item would need to be. Ryze needs the hp and mana and so you should get them. They don't even need to build up to be good on him, it's just a bonus.
And even on a dual lane I get amazing farm, and especially if you're owning them like you should with Ryze, the RoAs should be quite speedy.
Yeah I wouldn't have good farm in a TL.net inhouse because US server lags and I can't lasthit there
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On August 11 2010 05:32 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 05:29 Shikyo wrote:On August 11 2010 05:26 barbsq wrote:On August 11 2010 05:22 Mogwai wrote:
rylai's is awful on Ryze IMO. if you're going tear, archangels is always eventually a good idea, but I doubt you should be getting it that early. Maybe grab RoA after sorc boots, then z-ring, then archangels? That makes sense to me for maximizing AP and Mana for nuking while keeping some survivability. SS seems like a bad call because you have no escape mechanics. If the other team wants you dead, you're probably gonna die, so keeping stacks seems like a nightmare. i always run ghost/flash with masteries so sometimes i feel ok about getting ss ^.^ also rylais is kinda cool just kus you basically get aoe slow, but yeah, doesnt really fit that well on him, esp since it lacks mana edit: @ shikyo, i rarely find a game where i can get 2 roas in a timely manner, so this seems kinda silly, unless you're expecting a longass game So you can't farm 6k in 20 minutes? Well I can. A 'fast' RoA is like, 12 minutes, your typical 'I'm having a solid game but didn't get fed' RoA is closer to 15. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that if we had a sort of TL inhouse, you'd never get close to 2 RoA's at 20 minutes. Maybe you'd get 1+ a catalyst, with no boots, starting with sapphire crystal instead of doran's ring(which means you'll probably get zoned by decent players, and not get your farm, unless you're Morgana maybe?)
i think the only person who one could reasonably expect to farm double roa's in 20 minutes would be heimer, and that would def be under optimal conditions.
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EPT
