On August 11 2010 03:12 Southlight wrote: I don't get it on anyone these days >_>
Edit: Hey guys, I have a newsflash.
When you have two fully stacked Bloodthirsters, getting Last Whisper gives you more DPS than a third Bloodthirster.
And when you enter late-game it's actually probably better to get an IE instead of another Bloodthirster. I'm not sure about mid-game though, it's hard to find a medium cost item after the BT greave BT LW opening that doesn't take that long to farm.
starks? all the components that build it are cheap :D
On August 11 2010 03:21 HeavOnEarth wrote: Uhh , im inclined to agree with shikyo . An early NLR will benefit you and your team a lot more.. 2kills and an assist is a bit overboard, though. I much prefer SS + blue elixir regardless.
Haunting guise is excellent. I always grab it when my squishes get merc treads, or someone grabs an aegis from the opposing team. But then you go and say fully stacked SS < haunting guise and i shake my head
It doesn't take much for SS to match NLR's cost-effectiveness. I'm not bothered by the 40 AP differential at start - the 60 damage is very insignificant to me because I play a hero that will kill you if you're gonna die, and if I can't that 60 damage (one autoattack) is rarely going to make the difference.
I'm not dissing Guise, LIBF's nuker opening runs it, and likewise I rush HG on Anivia, etc. but it's a very one-dimensional and slightly all-in item. If you're building as a late-game carry SS >>>> HG, but if you're rolling early and the other team isn't keeping up with your AP vs MR HG extends your dominance by a long time. A long time ago I opened HG on Kassadin and, much like my complaint about Cata/RoA, it's just too slow. It's inconceivable to me how you can possibly argue that HG > SS except as a situational timing item. If you can hit that sweet spot it's glorious, otherwise it's a waste of gold.
On August 11 2010 03:21 Southlight wrote: Step 1: Find broken character Step 2: Abuse Step 3: Cry about nerf Step 4: Mope for two weeks Step 5: Go to "Step 1"
The Mogwai Lifecycle.
^ when was this ever a cycle? lol. it's happened once and now I play like, a bunch of broken characters so I should be set unless Riot is just watching my games and going, "hahaha, now we got him! nerf annie, amumu, garen, kayle, taric, xin and heimer all in the same patch hahahahahahahah TAKE THAT SMASHGIZMO!"
...akshually they're probably about to do that .
and I wasn't moping so much as I was learning other characters :p. it's just that Step 3 is never ending. I move past it but I still cry about nerf.
Edit2: In all seriousness, I think Amumu and Kayle are looking at nerfs soon, as is Shaco, and possibly Garen. That's pretty much 3 heroes that you main atm :p Oh yeah we can't forget Taric. That's four.
The last time a powerful tank got buffed, it was called Shen, and he got nerfed twice so hard that he's pretty trash now.
*cue ominous music*
Edit: Also wtf at role-reversal. Before it was you carrying with Pantheon as I obediently jungled, now I'm the one killing shit and you're tanking all of a sudden, wtf?
Edit2:
On August 11 2010 03:30 Mogwai wrote: EDIT: don't make me stir up the stupid LoLforum community into going on the warpath against fucking imba Kass :p.
You can try but I think most people will laugh at you and call him underpowered :d
On August 11 2010 03:21 HeavOnEarth wrote: Uhh , im inclined to agree with shikyo . An early NLR will benefit you and your team a lot more.. 2kills and an assist is a bit overboard, though. I much prefer SS + blue elixir regardless.
Haunting guise is excellent. I always grab it when my squishes get merc treads, or someone grabs an aegis from the opposing team. But then you go and say fully stacked SS < haunting guise and i shake my head
With enough external AP and a target at 20-30 mres before haunting guise, it's true. O_o The fact that this situation happens with 80% of the champions if they only have merc treads... well, just think about it. It of course is still an earlygame item, but it definitely isn't on Doran's Ring's level of uselessness in the lategame, at all.
On August 11 2010 03:19 Mogwai wrote: my favorite thing with Garen in when I hit level 3 and I honestly start saying to myself, "wow, is he seriously staying there on the lane with full health? Does he not realize I can just kill him with Q -> ghost -> E -> Ignite?" FIRST BLOOD!
what a stupid broken character, why haven't I been playing him all along?
My HG advocation made me miss this, but yeah it's absolutely hilarious. Then you can dive them off full hp at lvl 4 and just laugh at the tower tickling you as you mash their face in, and from lvl 6 on you can almost dive 2 people by yourself. He's just incredibly... ehh underpowered, says forums.
It costs 3x as much as a Doran's Ring, and for the most part I find smart squishies get at least a Veil + Treads at higher elos, unless they're supremely confident (often wrongly) in their positioning and/or their damage output. Most of my AP vs MPen calculations are based on at least 100 MR because of this. Not to mention many squishies carry MRpL runes these days.
The only ones you can consistently abuse HG against for the most part are other nukers, but I find them low priority targets. My targeting usually goes carry -> tank -> nuker.
On August 11 2010 03:30 Southlight wrote: The last time a powerful tank got buffed, it was called Shen, and he got nerfed twice so hard that he's pretty trash now.
*cue ominous music*
Edit: Also wtf at role-reversal. Before it was you carrying with Pantheon as I obediently jungled, now I'm the one killing shit and you're tanking all of a sudden, wtf?
On August 11 2010 03:30 Mogwai wrote: EDIT: don't make me stir up the stupid LoLforum community into going on the warpath against fucking imba Kass :p.
You can try but I think most people will laugh at you and call him underpowered :d
yea, you're right, I need to become a council member before I can make a claim like that.
but yea, herpdederp, the cycle of LoL continues. Mogwai tanking, Southlight carrying. at this rate, we'll be running 5 man heal gayness again come October.
On August 11 2010 03:36 Southlight wrote: It costs 3x as much as a Doran's Ring, and for the most part I find smart squishies get at least a Veil + Treads at higher elos, unless they're supremely confident (often wrongly) in their positioning and/or their damage output. Most of my AP vs MPen calculations are based on at least 100 MR because of this. Not to mention many squishies carry MRpL runes these days.
The only ones you can consistently abuse HG against for the most part are other nukers, but I find them low priority targets. My targeting usually goes carry -> tank -> nuker.
They will NOT rush their Banshe Veil before their first major damage item since normally they want to do something more than tickle, so they won't have a Banshee or anything of the sort until like 25 minutes, and until then HG can do... sigh, nevermind. Totally useless trying to make these guys listen to anything. Stubborn.
From the champion spotlight on our gargoyle friend anyone notice essentially the entire enemy team deals magic damage? Kinda funny how obvious that is...
On August 11 2010 03:39 Shikyo wrote: They will NOT rush their Banshe Veil before their first major damage item since normally they want to do something more than tickle, so they won't have a Banshee or anything of the sort until like 25 minutes, and until then HG can do...
On August 11 2010 03:27 Southlight wrote: I'm not dissing Guise, LIBF's nuker opening runs it, and likewise I rush HG on Anivia, etc. but it's a very one-dimensional and slightly all-in item. If you're building as a late-game carry SS >>>> HG, but if you're rolling early and the other team isn't keeping up with your AP vs MR HG extends your dominance by a long time. A long time ago I opened HG on Kassadin and, much like my complaint about Cata/RoA, it's just too slow. It's inconceivable to me how you can possibly argue that HG > SS except as a situational timing item. If you can hit that sweet spot it's glorious, otherwise it's a waste of gold.
The reality is that a carry will farm a damage item parallel to me farming Cata and then whatever item (SS or HG). At this particular juncture, with me sitting on Cata and SS or HG, the minute damage differential hardly matters. Yes, HG does minutely more damage, but it's like 20 more damage per spell and I've established this is a damage differential I'm more than willing to not care about.
So then we enter mid-game where I finish RoA and I've got several minutes before I'm "fully charged."
How much extra damage does RoA + HG do over RoA + SS? Probably like 20-40, especially if I'm sitting on low stacks.
At this point if I'm actually a threat they'll get MR items. This is obvious, no? Common sense - oh no, Kassadin is rampaging, time to get MR. Hell, just buy a Null Mantle and boom. Now we are at a cross-roads. HG has been hardcountered. This is what I prefer to avoid - my golden HG time has come to an end, and it's not an item that builds into the future - it helps, sure, but it's a very tiny difference. Meanwhile if I had SS and I were rampaging I'm becoming more and more a serious threat, not to mention if I've been stacking SS I'm forcing the other team to respond to me and building urgency/game pressure, whereas RoA + HG is "he is what he is."
Theoretically you can sell HG at this point, or hold onto it and hope you can build other shit fast enough. A lot then rides on what you were able to accomplish with HG leading up to this. If you went 10-0 with HG because of the -20 MR then you're in great shape, but this is what I call "taking advantage of the HG timing and the other team's stubborn idiocy in not getting even a single Null." In the meantime I'm confident that I can match, or come close to, those kill numbers in a similar situation with SS, which means I'd be sitting on a whole crapton of stacks.
Now we go back to whether you like SS or not. I obviously do - I'm now having a lot of stacks and a lot of flexibility with what item to make next. If they have no MR, I'll buy NLR and work towards ZR, or I'll buy Blasting and wait a couple more minutes (as BW works for both ZR and Void). If they're beginning to show signs of MR I'll make Void, and hark, I already have a ridiculous amount of AP via SS to make my Void worth its while, + if I'm not at max stack I'm intending to continue to get stronger until I do. If I do hit max stack I'm staring at 21% CDR that maxes out with golem or comes close with blue buff, which on a poking hero is quite brutal.
Of course, if you're not confident in SS then all you'll look at is a brittle, temporary AP buff (however big it may be).
Replace SS with HG and you're forced to build AP as much as you can, but because HG's effect wears off with even a Negatron you're also forced to build Void. So in a situation where you'd only need one item (Void) with SS you're looking at needing two (AP + Void) with HG.
In this way the reality is that from a time-elapsed perspective it's very, very rare that opening HG will lead you to have comparable AP stats with an SS opening, particularly an SS opening that scored kills and piled up stacks (~10). Because mid/late-game you're looking at say 200 AP on a 10-stack SS + RoA compared to 105 AP on HG + RoA with 20 extra mpen.
Edit: On the flip side, what LIBF (and thus by nature the build I copied off him) aims to do is rush HG and Sorc for a very fast 60 mpen. Not only is this inexpensive (2000) it takes a goddamn long time for people to catch up to that mpen (he can also afford to delay the sorc boots upgrade until people finish Treads). This build is relatively all-in - you're expecting to score kills or at least apply map pressure on the other team and thus have your team pull ahead. If you can't, you won't get the necessary gold to keep up with an Anivia (or other nuker) that instead opened something like Catalyst, because they're going to get late-game AP items faster than you are, and so they'll "explode" faster. In like fashion this Anivia build often goes HG -> Sorc -> ZR while gimping totally on mana pool, because you have to cut corners that way to make up for the early-game "cheese."
Actually, if I build for a carry I go for a Tear -> RoA -> Arch -> Zhonya/Void -> the other -> Arch build without getting a Mejais in the first place. This is the rice-for-5-years-and-own build. HG doesn't fit here either. EDIT: No room for HG in this build
I dunno, I just don't really like Mejai's. It only gives AP and it's inconsistent. In the end, I'm looking for more than just AP from a slot.
And on Kassadin, and certain nukers like Annie, and I am most often looking purely for AP. We can agree to differ on this opinion as well as consistency on SS (I find it absurdly easy to get and maintain stacks on, but I play a hero that's like impossible to kill). And when it comes to pure AP SS is the most cost-effective, that's all there is to it. My Korean-style Kassadin right now is more-or-less what you pointed out to me before - Cata > SS > RoA > ZR/Void.
Edit: Incidentally my preferred Anivia build is a spin off of LIBF where I go HG -> Sorc -> SS -> ZR -> Void while whoring golem.
People may remember me bitching about Catalyst being too slow. Well yeah on an HG opening opening Cata is like herkderk way to screw up my own opening.
EPT
