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On July 25 2010 10:53 oberon wrote:
Thoughts on Kayle? I played a few games, and settled on:
0/21/9
apen/mp5/mres/health
ghost/cleanse
meki + 2 mana pots -> GRB -> Nashor's
EWWQWR -> R > W > Q > E
But I'm not sure this is optimal. The things I really feel are the lack of pen and the lack of survivability. If I get ganked I basically slam on alt-WR-df and run away, which works, but eats a lot of cooldowns. Similar deal in teamfights, where it seems REALLY inefficient.
You're setup is too passive IMHO.
I wrote up a kayle guide recently-ish, it should be on the first page linked somewhere but basically I go 9/21/0 with MPEN marks, mp5/level seals, CDR glyphs (or ap/level, personal preference) hp quints. Summoner spells i use ghost ignite or cleanse if they have a ton of obnoxious stuns (like taric, malzahar, amumu, sion or something dumb like that).
You're also building extremely passive.
My build is QEQWQR R>Q>E>W
It's a lot more mana efficient to spend mana on Q to deal damage than it is to spam W to heal the damage you take. you also have to understand that Q increases the subsequent damage you deal so using QE and just going to town can kill a lot of champions early.
I don't start with Meki pendant because doran's ring gives more hp and AP so you can establish yourself early with a lead in damage and be able to zone effectively. She has a hard time farming early without eating all of her mana with E.
i build:
dorans ring + hp pot
boots
blasting wand
meki pendant
berserker greaves (or merc treads if they have a ton of cc)
finish rageblade
stinger
finish nashor's tooth
and you basically win then.
Don't be afraid to tower dive @ 6 and bait high cooldown and damage skills with your ult (ie ashe arrow, ezreal's ult, etc)
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There's so much retarded with that tier list I dont even know what to say. That guy who made it is retarded.
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On July 25 2010 11:00 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 10:56 Shikyo wrote:
Someone's tier list, discuss:
Top Tier
Garen
Nasus
Shaco
Sion
Teemo
Veigar
High Tier
Akali
Alistar
Annie
Fiddlesticks
Kassadin
Malzhar
Malphite
Morgana
Ryze
Shen
Singed
Tristana
Twitch
Warwick
Xin Zhao
Middle Tier
Amumu
Corki
Dr. Mundo
Ezreal
Gangplank
Gragas
Heimerdinger
Janna
Jax
Karthus
Katerina
Kayle
Kennen
Master Yi
Mordekaiser
Nidalee
Olaf
Pantheon
Poppy
Rammus
Sivir
Soraka
Taric
Trydamere
Udyr
Zilean
Low Tier
Anivia
Ashe
Cho Gath
Kog Maw
Nunu
Twisted Fate
Bottom Tier
Evelynn
Along with the help of the forum I'll try to turn this garbagepile into a pretty accurate tier list for teamliquid =) Teemo and Veigar in top tier makes this seem like a joke to me.
It's just a template with all the champions =P And yeah teemo op
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On July 25 2010 10:56 Shikyo wrote:Someone's tier list, discuss: + Show Spoiler +Top Tier
Garen
Nasus
Shaco
Sion
Teemo
Veigar
High Tier
Akali
Alistar
Annie
Fiddlesticks
Kassadin
Malzhar
Malphite
Morgana
Ryze
Shen
Singed
Tristana
Twitch
Warwick
Xin Zhao
Middle Tier
Amumu
Corki
Dr. Mundo
Ezreal
Gangplank
Gragas
Heimerdinger
Janna
Jax
Karthus
Katerina
Kayle
Kennen
Master Yi
Mordekaiser
Nidalee
Olaf
Pantheon
Poppy
Rammus
Sivir
Soraka
Taric
Trydamere
Udyr
Zilean
Low Tier
Anivia
Ashe
Cho Gath
Kog Maw
Nunu
Twisted Fate
Bottom Tier
Evelynn
Along with the help of the forum I'll try to turn this garbagepile into a pretty accurate tier list for teamliquid =)
There isn't nearly enough menacing tiers to induce fanboy tears. The titles need to be more menacing and absolute. Whats a tier list without controversy?
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Re Shikyo's list - What do you mean when you say "tier" then? Difficulty of use? Difficulty of mastery? OP-ness? Viability (although that's a whole discussion in itself)?
(I realise it's not your list, but if you're serious about trying to make one, perhaps one to appear in the OP, then I think it might be worth clarifying that, at least, before completely throwing out or making absolute judgements on a list like that.)
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On July 25 2010 11:05 jtype wrote:
Re Shikyo's list - What do you mean when you say "tier" then? Difficulty of use? Difficulty of mastery? OP-ness? Viability (although that's a whole discussion in itself)?
(I realise it's not your list, but if you're serious about trying to make one, perhaps one to appear in the OP, then I think it might be worth clarifying that, at least, before completely throwing out or making absolute judgements on a list like that.)
Tiers usually refer to good-ness. If that's a word.
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Top Tier
Heimerdinger
Shaco
Kayle
Soraka
Taric
Xin Zhao
High Tier
Katarina
Amumu
Nasus
Garen
Akali
Alistar
Annie
Fiddlesticks
Kassadin
Malzhar
Malphite
Morgana
Ryze
Shen
Ashe
Singed
Tristana
Twitch
Warwick
Middle Tier
Sion
Corki
Dr. Mundo
Ezreal
Gangplank
Gragas
Janna
Jax
Karthus
Nidalee
Olaf
Pantheon
Poppy
Anivia
Rammus
Sivir
Udyr
Zilean
Veigar
Low Tier
Kennen
Master Yi
Mordekaiser
Cho Gath
Kog Maw
Nunu
Twisted Fate
Teemo
Trydamere
Bottom Tier
Evelynn
Now I made a few changes, I'll continue in a bit but it should be a lot better.
On July 25 2010 11:05 jtype wrote:
Re Shikyo's list - What do you mean when you say "tier" then? Difficulty of use? Difficulty of mastery? OP-ness? Viability (although that's a whole discussion in itself)?
(I realise it's not your list, but if you're serious about trying to make one, perhaps one to appear in the OP, then I think it might be worth clarifying that, at least, before completely throwing out or making absolute judgements on a list like that.)
two words: competitive viability
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On July 25 2010 11:06 Shikyo wrote:Top Tier + Show Spoiler +Heimerdinger
Shaco
Kayle
Soraka
Taric
Xin Zhao
High Tier
Katarina
Amumu
Nasus
Garen
Akali
Alistar
Annie
Fiddlesticks
Kassadin
Malzhar
Malphite
Morgana
Ryze
Shen
Ashe
Singed
Tristana
Twitch
Warwick
Middle Tier
Sion
Corki
Dr. Mundo
Ezreal
Gangplank
Gragas
Janna
Jax
Karthus
Nidalee
Olaf
Pantheon
Poppy
Anivia
Rammus
Sivir
Udyr
Zilean
Veigar
Low Tier
Kennen
Master Yi
Mordekaiser
Cho Gath
Kog Maw
Nunu
Twisted Fate
Teemo
Trydamere
Bottom Tier
Evelynn
Now I made a few changes, I'll continue in a bit but it should be a lot better.
I dunno if it is just me, but I prefer left to right, top to bottom is hard to read imo.
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On July 25 2010 11:07 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 11:06 Shikyo wrote:Top Tier + Show Spoiler +Heimerdinger
Shaco
Kayle
Soraka
Taric
Xin Zhao
High Tier
Katarina
Amumu
Nasus
Garen
Akali
Alistar
Annie
Fiddlesticks
Kassadin
Malzhar
Malphite
Morgana
Ryze
Shen
Ashe
Singed
Tristana
Twitch
Warwick
Middle Tier
Sion
Corki
Dr. Mundo
Ezreal
Gangplank
Gragas
Janna
Jax
Karthus
Nidalee
Olaf
Pantheon
Poppy
Anivia
Rammus
Sivir
Udyr
Zilean
Veigar
Low Tier
Kennen
Master Yi
Mordekaiser
Cho Gath
Kog Maw
Nunu
Twisted Fate
Teemo
Trydamere
Bottom Tier
Evelynn
Now I made a few changes, I'll continue in a bit but it should be a lot better. I dunno if it is just me, but I prefer left to right, top to bottom is hard to read imo.
You can do it for me if you think it's better, I'm too lazy
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Do Sion or Gangplank have more competitive viability than, say, Cho'Gath, Teemo or Master Yi?
Or does Rammus have less competitive viability than Tristana or Alistar?
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Top Tier
Heimerdinger
Shaco
Kayle
Soraka
Taric
Xin Zhao
Amumu
High Tier
Katarina
Nasus
Garen
Ezreal
Janna
Annie
Morgana
Shen
Sivir
Ashe
Udyr
Middle Tier
Alistar
Kassadin
Gangplank
Sion
Twitch
Rammus
Singed
Tristana
Malphite
Warwick
Fiddlesticks
Twisted Fate
Karthus
Nidalee
Pantheon
Anivia
Zilean
Master Yi
Veigar
Olaf
Low Tier
Poppy
Mordekaiser
Dr. Mundo
Akali
Gragas
Corki
Malzahar
Jax
Kennen
Cho Gath
Kog Maw
Bottom Tier
Evelynn
Nunu
Teemo
Trydamere
Ryze
How's it looking?
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Shikyo, I disagree with your placement of Kennen. Facing a skilled Kennen is quite scary to face.
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Switch Amumu with Xin Zhao.
wait why am I even trying to fix your tier lists. Tier lists are stupid and well you sort of shit on this thread.
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Well bottom tier needs some populating as well. Who do you think is worse than him in low or mid tier and why?
On July 25 2010 11:21 HazMat wrote:
Switch Amumu with Xin Zhao.
wait why am I even trying to fix your tier lists. Tier lists are stupid and well you sort of shit on this thread.
Well sorry for trying to create an accurate tier list? And I think I'll just add Amumu to top
EDIT: coming from you that's just funny
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People keep saying something is overpowered, and then also say that tier lists are bad.
In this kind of game, all champions are available to both teams. The only imbalance potentially comes from banning and picking... like last pick is so good.
Furthermore, if the game was completely balanced, it would be balanced so that every individual team of 5 would be balanced, not having every character on the same power level.
Tier lists are so much more accurate in this regard but the question is how people rank characters on the tier list. Usually the first tier is high priority bans or autopicks (taric, ezreal, xinzhao), the next tier are high priority picks (ashe, soraka, heimer). A lot of this has to do with relative powerlevel, but also how much they need to itemize. With less need to do so, you can spend more money on wards which is a huge help to you team.
Tierlists are the only accurate way to show who is good to pick or ban.
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I think tier lists are good, and while it's nigh-impossible to individually rate champions inside tiers, putting them into about 5 different tiers should be possible to do.
EDIT: So if there's no good reason to put Kennen higher, everyone agrees that this is pretty accurate?
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Tier lists are bad, and I've been maintaining that I don't consider any hero overpowered (of late), except that there're some heroes that really bore some games out.
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On July 25 2010 11:01 Phrost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 10:53 oberon wrote:
Thoughts on Kayle? I played a few games, and settled on:
0/21/9
apen/mp5/mres/health
ghost/cleanse
meki + 2 mana pots -> GRB -> Nashor's
EWWQWR -> R > W > Q > E
But I'm not sure this is optimal. The things I really feel are the lack of pen and the lack of survivability. If I get ganked I basically slam on alt-WR-df and run away, which works, but eats a lot of cooldowns. Similar deal in teamfights, where it seems REALLY inefficient. You're setup is too passive IMHO. I wrote up a kayle guide recently-ish, it should be on the first page linked somewhere but basically I go 9/21/0 with MPEN marks, mp5/level seals, CDR glyphs (or ap/level, personal preference) hp quints. Summoner spells i use ghost ignite or cleanse if they have a ton of obnoxious stuns (like taric, malzahar, amumu, sion or something dumb like that). You're also building extremely passive. My build is QEQWQR R>Q>E>W It's a lot more mana efficient to spend mana on Q to deal damage than it is to spam W to heal the damage you take. you also have to understand that Q increases the subsequent damage you deal so using QE and just going to town can kill a lot of champions early. I don't start with Meki pendant because doran's ring gives more hp and AP so you can establish yourself early with a lead in damage and be able to zone effectively. She has a hard time farming early without eating all of her mana with E. i build: dorans ring + hp pot boots blasting wand meki pendant berserker greaves (or merc treads if they have a ton of cc) finish rageblade stinger finish nashor's tooth and you basically win then. Don't be afraid to tower dive @ 6 and bait high cooldown and damage skills with your ult (ie ashe arrow, ezreal's ult, etc)
IMO not going 21 utility on Kayle is a crime.
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On July 25 2010 11:28 Southlight wrote:
Tier lists are bad, and I've been maintaining that I don't consider any hero overpowered (of late), except that there're some heroes that really bore some games out.
Being overpowered isn't the same thing as being better than others O_o The real question of tier lists is, which champions help you win the most?
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Imho this is a pretty good list of how good a champion is overall.
+ Show Spoiler +
Tier A - Champions that are effective all game long, strong champions that will work well with any team. These champions are frequently banned in Ranked games. Fairly easy to play well.
Ezreal
Heimerdinger
Shen
Xin Zhao
Amumu
Alistar
Taric
Janna
Soraka
Shaco
Kayle
Morgana
Rammus
Tier B - Strong Champions that will usually work well with almost any team but do not have as strong of an influence as tier A champions. Usually they are very strong picks.
Ashe
Tristana
Fiddlesticks
Annie
Kassadin
Warwick
Udyr
Singed
Sivir
Katarina
Tier C - Champions that are viable but require certain matchups to be effective. Some of these champions have weak points in their game that make other picks safer or are out classed by similar roles in higher tiers. Examples of flaws: strong early game but taper at the end, terrible early game but with items are very strong, requires certain other champions to be effective, requires the enemy team to not have X. These champions can be very powerful but require a lot of skill or a strong team composition to support them to play, not recommended for beginners.
Master Yi
Jax
Twitch
Nasus
Sion
Pantheon
Nidalee
Teemo
Akali
Malzahar
Malphite
Corki
Gangplank
Gragas
Karthus
Olaf
Zilean
Tryndamere
Anivia
Cho'Gath
Nunu
Kog'Maw
Twisted Fate
Garen
Tier D - Champions that are outclassed by most other champions in the game. Can win games but have no niche that would make them C class. Not impossible to play but not recommended if you want to win.
Evelynn
Veigar
Ryze
Dr. Mundo
Kennen
Mordekaiser
Poppy
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EPT
