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On July 06 2010 09 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 06 2010 09 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 06 2010 09 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:06 Southlight wrote:
I'm so used to heroes that don't farm that my last-hitting is horribad.
That's some nice counter-logic right here. Heroes that don't farm precisely require good lasthitting. If you're a sivir or a morde, your lasthitting can suck as much as you want it to.
I feel like the matchmaker is really screwed up. On like a 12-game winstreak if I don't count the game where we had a leaver at start and I went 12-2-13 in with DPS Eve. Oh well, approaching +50! My friend's now +46 and I feel I'm a bit better than him. Where does high elo start approx?
Oh right, and this of course. Twitch is really imba. Almost lost the game because of the reasons stated in the post-game chat.
![[image loading]](http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/7649/asdadasdsad.png)
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There's a difference between "heroes with which it is difficult to farm" and "heroes that don't farm."
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On July 06 2010 09:06 Southlight wrote:
I'm so used to heroes that don't farm that my last-hitting is horribad. 100% last hitting with katarina, even while harassing and zoning the fuck out of my opponent.
meanwhile, 7 cs 10 minutes into the game with nidalee. i should really go practice her or something.
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On July 06 2010 09:11 Shikyo wrote:
That's some nice counter-logic right here. Heroes that don't farm precisely require good lasthitting. If you're a sivir or a morde, your lasthitting can suck as much as you want it to.
he played jungling tanks for a while, and also plays champs that are more focussed on killing champions rather than farming, so he was saying his minion last hitting skills are lacking
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On July 06 2010 09:15 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 09:06 Southlight wrote:
I'm so used to heroes that don't farm that my last-hitting is horribad. 100% last hitting with katarina, even while harassing and zoning the fuck out of my opponent. meanwhile, 7 cs 10 minutes into the game with nidalee. i should really go practice her or something.
Dude last-hitting with ranged heroes is rough, hahah. I've got decent last-hitting with Kass (most of my issues stem from impatience, as instead of waiting for creep to cut one down low enough I just try to attack it twice) and other such melee heroes but if I try playing a ranged hero *choke*
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On July 06 2010 09 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 06 2010 09 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 06 2010 09 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:15 Southlight wrote:
There's a difference between "heroes with which it is difficult to farm" and "heroes that don't farm."
No, farming would be clearing lane creeps for gold and exp(possibly rapidly), going to jungle etc. Lasthitting is totally different, it's what you do on the lane and it's what every single champion should do as much as possible unless they have a hardcarry teammate who gets them all, in which case he should only get the lasthits that his teammate can't. If you intentionally fail at lasthitting, then it's just bad play. There's no champion that's better without items than with items.
On July 06 2010 09 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 06 2010 09 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:15 StuffedTurkey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 09:11 Shikyo wrote:
That's some nice counter-logic right here. Heroes that don't farm precisely require good lasthitting. If you're a sivir or a morde, your lasthitting can suck as much as you want it to.
he played jungling tanks for a while, and also plays champs that are more focussed on killing champions rather than farming, so he was saying his minion last hitting skills are lacking
Well yeah with junglers you don't -need- lasthitting, but it's a very useful skill to have when you have to hold a lane. Focusing on killing champions is good too but in the laning phase if you aren't killing champions, you really should be able to lasthit properly to get those first items to help with the champion killing.
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imo just make a smurf and just purely, last hit. when your team is down 20 kills start right clicking people and carry them to victory with your 200 + cs while they all have <50 :D!!
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I end games on Kassadin with like 30-40 creep kills, unless the game is so one-sided that I have the time and inclination to kill some creep, because I'm either going on the offensive and playing far off of creep or conceding a lane and not really last-hitting. The majority of my creep kills also come late-game where I can E R and wipe out creep, because I do that to push back a lane and then run off, or I last-hit one and Q another. Likewise for Soraka and Janna, whom both have the same issue as the jungling tanks in that they defer to other people whilst in lane, and don't really have a solo lane to be greedy.
Considering those heroes make up like 90% of the games I've played over the past 4-5 months (with the notable exceptions of Ashe and Taric), it's a pretty honest statement that my last hitting skills are terrible and rusty, because I haven't actually needed to do it, like, ever.
@ HeavOnEarth I should, I really should, but even when I smurf I default to melee heroes, and those are so much easier to last-hit with, laziness aside. Also the+30 record on my smurf and the fact that I tend to queue-5 means I don't actually match up against terrible players anymore  They're bad but they're not lolfarmallgameandcarry bad.
Edit:
I mean I posted two Kass games, it's pretty blatant how much disregard I have for last-hitting during lane, and it's pretty amusing to see some of my missed last-hits as the game goes on.
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I just played a few practice games. If you can get like 100 minion kills at around 7-8 minutes freefarming, you're fine. E: okay more like 8-10
On July 06 2010 09 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 06 2010 09 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:32 Southlight wrote:
I end games on Kassadin with like 30-40 creep kills, unless the game is so one-sided that I have the time and inclination to kill some creep, because I'm either going on the offensive and playing far off of creep or conceding a lane and not really last-hitting. The majority of my creep kills also come late-game where I can E R and wipe out creep, because I do that to push back a lane and then run off, or I last-hit one and Q another. Likewise for Soraka and Janna, whom both have the same issue as the jungling tanks in that they defer to other people whilst in lane, and don't really have a solo lane to be greedy.
Even if you do this, it doesn't mean it's good or that it wouldn't be better if you didn't.
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On July 06 2010 09:11 Shikyo wrote:
I feel like the matchmaker is really screwed up. On like a 12-game winstreak if I don't count the game where we had a leaver at start and I went 12-2-13 in with DPS Eve. Oh well, approaching +50! My friend's now +46 and I feel I'm a bit better than him. Where does high elo start approx?
If you're on the EU server, i was at +60 at my peak and used to get paired with top450-500 players.
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I don't see what your point is? If I'm pushing them off lane and pressuring them, then I will. If I can't, it means I've lost the lane and I'm not gonna risk dying. In neither case do I have the free time to focus on last-hitting. That doesn't mean I don't, and I'm "okay" at last-hitting, but it's pretty obvious I'm not very good at it right now because I played jungling tanks and support for 4-5 months. Which is pretty much what I said - that I'm not top-tier-worthy when it comes to last-hitting because I've only just begun to take it more seriously with Kass, to try to squeeze out the extra 300-400 gold over the course of the game I'm missing out by whiffing some last hits.
... Not that the extra 300-400 gold really matters, but it'd be good form to get better at it.
I mean, this discussion looks like
Me: I'm horribad at last-hitting because I've not had to do it.
On July 06 2010 09:11 Shikyo wrote:
That's some nice counter-logic right here. Heroes that don't farm precisely require good lasthitting. If you're a sivir or a morde, your lasthitting can suck as much as you want it to.
And then I point out that with Kassadin I have either black or white - I'm winning or losing, and you respond:
On July 06 2010 09:32 Shikyo wrote:
Even if you do this, it doesn't mean it's good or that it wouldn't be better if you didn't.
Now it sounds like you're telling me I should focus on getting rich with Kassadin. Like, what? What does this have to do with my admission that my last-hitting skills are rusty as hell (embarrassing truth), and why should I play Kassadin any differently just to get a bit more gold?
Edit:
I mean, my point is that my last-hitting blows compared to most ppl at the level I play at because I've never cared to do it. You don't need to last-hit in jungle, and with tanks if I come out to lane I usually just AOE everything down. And when playing Soraka/Janna I hit the enemy heroes constantly, rather than actually rice it (I figure whoever's in my lane can do it). And now with Kassadin, where I'm actually *gasp* in a lane and *gasp* have the mobility and freedom to do as I wish (as opposed to following the carry around) I'm noticing my last-hitting blows like 15-20 minutes into the game, where I'm being impatient and have bad habits with regards to doing this stuff. That means over the course of a game I have like a total of 3 minutes where I'm actually bothering to last hit - and watching my own play it's a bit amusing to see me whiff a handful every so often. The only possible point of debate I see here is that Soraka/Janna/etc should be last-hitting. Maybe. I admitted like 150 pages ago when I posted my Soraka game vs cfang that I'd become used to just Starcalling everything on Soraka, and with Janna I'd just gale a lane and then keep moving toward the next one.
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8751 Posts
sorry, rant coming. anyone hate the whole obligation for calling mia? some of you higher elo players dont have to do that? i really get tired of holding people's hands. if there was no minimap, yeah obviously call mia. but with the minimap, everyone can constantly see where people are at. calling when karthus/panth/tf etc hit level 6 is infinitely more useful but i hardly ever hear people say those things.
it seems like every once in a while i have to play with some hotshot who only dies because his teammates werent giving him constant text updates on what's going on around the map. so annoying! of course, most of the time i go ahead and call the mia's because i have more fun winning while holding people's hands than losing and hearing people whine. but i wish i didnt have to!
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Even at higher elos you have to call because there're some tunnel-vision players everywhere ;p But personally, it's a bit like, mm, pro SC players like you probably don't miss blips on the minimap, but most other people tend to take their eyes off the minimap for 5 seconds, and that's enough time for Rammus to move from one lane to another and catch them off-guard. That sort of thing.
Calling TF/Panth/Karth level 6 is pretty common, though, at least personally.
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On July 06 2010 10:07 Liquid`NonY wrote:
sorry, rant coming. anyone hate the whole obligation for calling mia? some of you higher elo players dont have to do that? i really get tired of holding people's hands. if there was no minimap, yeah obviously call mia. but with the minimap, everyone can constantly see where people are at. calling when karthus/panth/tf etc hit level 6 is infinitely more useful but i hardly ever hear people say those things.
it seems like every once in a while i have to play with some hotshot who only dies because his teammates werent giving him constant text updates on what's going on around the map. so annoying! of course, most of the time i go ahead and call the mia's because i have more fun winning while holding people's hands than losing and hearing people whine. but i wish i didnt have to!
I do only call them sometimes. Stopped doing it after one game where I told my mates something like "ashe going bot" or "ashe going top" (cant remember if it actually was ashe). And 'ashe' still got a double kill on the two guys.
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i only call like 5% of the time, not my fault people don't look at the map.
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On July 06 2010 10 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 06 2010 10 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 06 2010 10 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:07 Liquid`NonY wrote:
sorry, rant coming. anyone hate the whole obligation for calling mia? some of you higher elo players dont have to do that? i really get tired of holding people's hands. if there was no minimap, yeah obviously call mia. but with the minimap, everyone can constantly see where people are at. calling when karthus/panth/tf etc hit level 6 is infinitely more useful but i hardly ever hear people say those things.
it seems like every once in a while i have to play with some hotshot who only dies because his teammates werent giving him constant text updates on what's going on around the map. so annoying! of course, most of the time i go ahead and call the mia's because i have more fun winning while holding people's hands than losing and hearing people whine. but i wish i didnt have to!
Rofl yeah, it's hilarious since most of the time when I say mia and the mid kills them they're like WTF NO MISS then I say I did say miss and then they're like oh you did?
What's the point of saying miss when no one even reads it, and when they do they don't even react.
If a player isn't good enough to be able to look at the minimap, he's not good enough to actually react to the miss call imo.
Of course it's a whole different thing if you clearly see them moving towards a lane, in which case I say "mid head top care" and ping and then they normally react somehow.
Normally you should like, spoonfeed your teammates so that they understand stuff (like on mid ashe fires arrow towards toplane, you ping it and start spamming "b b b b" and normally they move out of the way, whereas if you say ashe arrow heading top they won't react in time, so just give them semi-direct commands instead of saying someone's missing for example.
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It's more effective on voice chat, but players are naturally inclined to tunnel-vision into a certain action. For instance, if I'm trying to towerdive someone half the time I'll forget to check the minimap because I'm concentrating so hard on the positioning of me and the target with regards to the tower, waiting for them to make that one mistake, and when someone says "bot care" I'll go oh okay and back off. Pinging also does the trick, although as HeavOnEarth and I know very well, pinging can be very ambiguous I call missing out of habit (due to playing with bad pubbies in DotA) and if there's urgency I'll type care and start pinging the general area where I expect them to be.
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On July 06 2010 09:37 g1rg10 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 09:11 Shikyo wrote:
I feel like the matchmaker is really screwed up. On like a 12-game winstreak if I don't count the game where we had a leaver at start and I went 12-2-13 in with DPS Eve. Oh well, approaching +50! My friend's now +46 and I feel I'm a bit better than him. Where does high elo start approx?
If you're on the EU server, i was at +60 at my peak and used to get paired with top450-500 players. i feel like i really "broke" high elo at around +80. after that it was just "more high" elo haha. odonnell is like +30 though and he's high elo. after you get into the bracket, +wins don't matter anymore because of the elo cap. it's stupid but RIOT isn't known for smart decision making anyways (not as bad as neo-blizzard though).
On July 06 2010 10:07 Liquid`NonY wrote:
sorry, rant coming. anyone hate the whole obligation for calling mia? some of you higher elo players dont have to do that? i really get tired of holding people's hands. if there was no minimap, yeah obviously call mia. but with the minimap, everyone can constantly see where people are at. calling when karthus/panth/tf etc hit level 6 is infinitely more useful but i hardly ever hear people say those things.
it seems like every once in a while i have to play with some hotshot who only dies because his teammates werent giving him constant text updates on what's going on around the map. so annoying! of course, most of the time i go ahead and call the mia's because i have more fun winning while holding people's hands than losing and hearing people whine. but i wish i didnt have to! like southlight said, not everybody is an sc player and i'm sure people will call MIAs (and demand MIA calls) as long as the game is around.
my argument against you is this: what else are you so busy with that you can't call it? during laning you should obviously be very suspicious when a hero or two disappears from your lane. logically they should either be in lane getting exp, doing dragon, or ganking someone. if they have to go back to heal, just call the MIA if they don't show up after a reasonable time.
also, even i get tunnel visioned when i'm playing. there's a lot more to focus on then people give credit for. zoning, last hitting, cooldowns, exp advantages, direction of push, hp/mp, etc etc. it's not too hard to get lost in the action. and since people can disappear from one lane and reappear in another so quickly, it's hard to keep track of 5 enemy heroes and react fast enough unless you someone calls it early.
i mean this with no sarcasm: you shouldn't expect people to be able to keep up with the multitasking skills of a pro-SC player. especially while you're leveling up, you'll run into retards that picked up the game in the most casual manner possible. and you're going to get blamed for shit that's not your fault for as long as you play the game, so get used to it  .
semi-related pro-tip: if you click tab, you can see the scoreboard for the game. enemies that show up on the mini map (and are in vision of allies) have a highlighted hero portrait while those that don't show up are darkened.
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On July 06 2010 10:07 Liquid`NonY wrote:
sorry, rant coming. anyone hate the whole obligation for calling mia? some of you higher elo players dont have to do that? i really get tired of holding people's hands. if there was no minimap, yeah obviously call mia. but with the minimap, everyone can constantly see where people are at. calling when karthus/panth/tf etc hit level 6 is infinitely more useful but i hardly ever hear people say those things.
it seems like every once in a while i have to play with some hotshot who only dies because his teammates werent giving him constant text updates on what's going on around the map. so annoying! of course, most of the time i go ahead and call the mia's because i have more fun winning while holding people's hands than losing and hearing people whine. but i wish i didnt have to!
I'm not a pro, but even if people didn't complain about it, it'd still be best to call mia. It indirectly benefits you. When your teammates do better, so do you.
When I'm concentrating on last hits and harass, I can only watch the minimap so much (usually twice a minute). And I usually only look at the lane(s) directly adjacent to mine. This is a personal flaw, I could watch the minimap alot more, but I'm pretty good at farming when I don't constantly watch the minimap so I weigh how often a gank is likely against how often I need to control my lane, and I make a choice... assuming, of course, that my teammates will warn me if their lane opponent vanishes.
Teamwork does a lot to fix individual flaws.
A real world example might be the difference between being a Boxer and being an American Football player. Both wanna put the pain on their opponent(s), but the American Football player looks out for his teammates.
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'bot mia'
'nm re'
'bot mia'
'shit nm back'
'...... twitch is probably here, but whatever, care'
*twitch shows up right after*
'fuck you twitch'
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EPT
