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On November 02 2010 14:02 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 13:55 Juicyfruit wrote:
It's hard for many to appreciate how strong 21-defensive mastery is for early-laning, but yeah...utility overtakes it eventually.
There's a huge gap in how retardedly aggressive I can zone with 21-defense kennen vs 21-utility...BUT... whatever. The higher parts of the utility tree have the best masteries out of the three. Movespeed, CDR and reduced summoner cooldown are all great, meditation is nice, expanded mind is CRUCIAL and improved ghost and good hands are pretty nice too. Compare that to defensive tree which has primarily the "take 1 less damage" for mid-range and veteran's scars with the 4% redux, which is all kinda meh now that there's less level 1 red buff-dragon fights. Offense is pretty lackluster after 15% pen as well.
Of course, but if we're talking about 1v1 laning, creep aggro is highly relevant so taking 4 less damage per creep is wonderful.
You really do need to have the intent on winning the lane starting at level 1 AND find a way to fix the mana issue, but 21-defense does provide tangible benefits.
Having said that, I would only go 21-defense if I can predict that it's going to help me overwhelmingly win a lane that I need to win.
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On November 02 2010 14:02 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 13:55 Juicyfruit wrote:
It's hard for many to appreciate how strong 21-defensive mastery is for early-laning, but yeah...utility overtakes it eventually.
There's a huge gap in how retardedly aggressive I can zone with 21-defense kennen vs 21-utility...BUT... whatever. The higher parts of the utility tree have the best masteries out of the three. Movespeed, CDR and reduced summoner cooldown are all great, meditation is nice, expanded mind is CRUCIAL and improved ghost and good hands are pretty nice too. Compare that to defensive tree which has primarily the "take 1 less damage" for mid-range and veteran's scars with the 4% redux, which is all kinda meh now that there's less level 1 red buff-dragon fights. Offense is pretty lackluster after 15% pen as well. [edit] But on pretty much every champ with mana you should be running SoS [/edit]
since when is expanded mind so crucial?
i always thought it was a mediocre mastery at best, I mean even with 3000 mana its just, uh, 150 extra mana? like... a... third of a mana crystal? 
SoS is worth 3 regrowths at that point, so chyeah
i do love meditation and neut util mastery and quickness so much though, maybe we just play different types of heroes 
and also! is 21 in offense viable on heroes like twitch? I mean, if you're going to play a snowball hero might as well have it rolling down the hill as fast as possible eh?
i would do it if I had a "babysit twitch" team and i trusted them to tank shots for me and shit, but otherwise the util's survivability bonuses seem to outweigh it too much D:
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United States47024 Posts
On November 02 2010 14:08 Navi wrote:since when is expanded mind so crucial? i always thought it was a mediocre mastery at best, I mean even with 3000 mana its just, uh, 150 extra mana? like... a... third of a mana crystal?
This surprises me as well, seeing as I've been running Awareness over Expanded Mind on basically everyone.
Also, SoS vs. Archaic Knowledge? I'm not sure what champs I should be running which on, particularly as it pertains to nukers (Annie, Anivia, etc.).
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so i don't want to brag or anything but
fellow TLer Eiii and myself (guitarasaurus) killed baron at the 30 minute mark using only sunfire damage from our combined 5 sunfires (Eiii had 3, I had 2) as amumu and galio in a ranked game. amumu only sustained 2/3 health loss. no skills, no auto attacks, no help from teammates (they just held off the other team from stopping us)
it was the most epic, yet slowest, thing you've ever seen. took about 2 minutes to kill him fully? maybe a bit less. anyways, we're obviously best players because of this
numba wan baron killers
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On November 02 2010 14:13 gtrsrs wrote:
so i don't want to brag or anything but
fellow TLer Eiii and myself (guitarasaurus) killed baron at the 30 minute mark using only sunfire damage from our combined 5 sunfires (Eiii had 3, I had 2) as amumu and galio in a ranked game. amumu only sustained 2/3 health loss. no skills, no auto attacks, no help from teammates (they just held off the other team from stopping us)
it was the most epic, yet slowest, thing you've ever seen. took about 2 minutes to kill him fully? maybe a bit less. anyways, we're obviously best players because of this
numba wan baron killers
That sounds pretty epic! We need to play some time soon.. its been a while.
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On November 02 2010 14:11 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 14:08 Navi wrote:since when is expanded mind so crucial? i always thought it was a mediocre mastery at best, I mean even with 3000 mana its just, uh, 150 extra mana? like... a... third of a mana crystal? This surprises me as well, seeing as I've been running Awareness over Expanded Mind on basically everyone. Also, SoS vs. Archaic Knowledge? I'm not sure what champs I should be running which on, particularly as it pertains to nukers (Annie, Anivia, etc.).
SORRY HUGE MISTAKE LOL
Forgot the name, obviously it's the xp mastery.
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Revive is good, suiciding at level 1 is bad. That is all, I bid you all good night.
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On November 02 2010 15:00 Mogwai wrote:
Revive is good, suiciding at level 1 is bad. That is all, I bid you all good night.
GEEGEE 5HIT
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Fair enough--I'd still like to hear some reasons why, because as far as I'm concerned it's got definite advantages and I've seen a few good-but-not-great players do it, but I'll take it from Mog that it's bad to sui. I'm probably still going to do it.
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afaik the problem with lvl 1 suiciding in high elo is that ppl camp out in the jungle protecting their buffs, at the lower levels, its fine since you just run in and no1 is there so you can suicide @ inhib turret ez mode.
also lvl 1 teamfights are a pretty big deal as well, but again, at lower levels, they just dont happen, since ppl go straight to lane. At the level i'm at, i dont see anything wrong with it.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 02 2010 14:19 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 14:11 TheYango wrote:On November 02 2010 14:08 Navi wrote:since when is expanded mind so crucial? i always thought it was a mediocre mastery at best, I mean even with 3000 mana its just, uh, 150 extra mana? like... a... third of a mana crystal? This surprises me as well, seeing as I've been running Awareness over Expanded Mind on basically everyone. Also, SoS vs. Archaic Knowledge? I'm not sure what champs I should be running which on, particularly as it pertains to nukers (Annie, Anivia, etc.). SORRY HUGE MISTAKE LOL Forgot the name, obviously it's the xp mastery.
...And with regard to my other question?
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My elo is shit right now, it's like 1480 because I rarely play ranked and don't duo and have been getting rammus players who force 2v1 mid on me lately but I know the game well enough and have played against enough name drops to understand how a level 1 teamfight works. You guys act like "high elo" is somewhere far out of our reach that we can't understand while in reality it's more like "slightly better players that we occasionally game with". I don't think I'm that much worse than many top ranked players.
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On November 02 2010 14:11 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 14:08 Navi wrote:since when is expanded mind so crucial? i always thought it was a mediocre mastery at best, I mean even with 3000 mana its just, uh, 150 extra mana? like... a... third of a mana crystal? This surprises me as well, seeing as I've been running Awareness over Expanded Mind on basically everyone. Also, SoS vs. Archaic Knowledge? I'm not sure what champs I should be running which on, particularly as it pertains to nukers (Annie, Anivia, etc.).
If you run awareness youll get level 2 from stone golems, so I run it at ANY jungler, especially if I start there.
Awareness seems mediocore to bad imo, also talking utillity dont forget that greed is basically 1-2 free wards each game
edit; ahhh kk 5hit corrected himself (:
But am I the only who find 10% extra crit damage particularily sexy for someone who relies heavily on IE as ashe / trist ?
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On November 02 2010 15:32 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
My elo is shit right now, it's like 1480 because I rarely play ranked and don't duo and have been getting rammus players who force 2v1 mid on me lately but I know the game well enough and have played against enough name drops to understand how a level 1 teamfight works. You guys act like "high elo" is somewhere far out of our reach that we can't understand while in reality it's more like "slightly better players that we occasionally game with". I don't think I'm that much worse than many top ranked players.
I can tell by your post that high elo is somewhere far out of reach for your understanding.
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On November 02 2010 15:32 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
My elo is shit right now, it's like 1480 because I rarely play ranked and don't duo and have been getting rammus players who force 2v1 mid on me lately but I know the game well enough and have played against enough name drops to understand how a level 1 teamfight works. You guys act like "high elo" is somewhere far out of our reach that we can't understand while in reality it's more like "slightly better players that we occasionally game with". I don't think I'm that much worse than many top ranked players.
Then you know that there will be someone in the jungle who will see you trying to suicide and get a free fb. Especially when the opposing team sees a pantheon with revive. They'd have to be really dumb to not consider the fact that you will try it.
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But I mean, in cases where I think there's gonna be someone who will kill me in their jungle I suicide to top tower. If there's a hero nearby I don't attempt it. It's not like I HAVE TO kill myself, I can easily lane just like anyone else by not suiciding. I just feel like if I can get it off it's great and if not I'm in the same position as everyone else. Jeez, is it really too hard to pull off a tower death without dying to an enemy before there are creeps in the lane?
I'd be willing to bet a 2 week ban that I could pull it off 5 times in a row without giving FB.
On November 02 2010 15:50 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 15:32 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
My elo is shit right now, it's like 1480 because I rarely play ranked and don't duo and have been getting rammus players who force 2v1 mid on me lately but I know the game well enough and have played against enough name drops to understand how a level 1 teamfight works. You guys act like "high elo" is somewhere far out of our reach that we can't understand while in reality it's more like "slightly better players that we occasionally game with". I don't think I'm that much worse than many top ranked players. I can tell by your post that high elo is somewhere far out of reach for your understanding.
Not to be a dick, but didn't I stomp you on locodoco's stream a few times?
[edit] To be honest I'm not sure if it was you, I might be thinking about every other teamliquid player I've ever played against on his stream. [/edit]
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So Gragas owns super hard. I seriously dunno why he's not played more often.
I've been building him and playing him just like I play Shen. Armor yellows, MS quints, MR/lvl blues. Get like Randuin's, Mercs, Banshee's, sometimes Aegis first depending on the team.
Should I go for some kind of hybrid build or is this the way to do it? His poke power is pretty strong early on but he does pitiful damage later, it's more about bodyslamming the right targets and using your ult properly.
I go EQW then Q > E > W. Gives good zoning ability in lane with barrel + slam combo along with sick buffed AD.
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Like seriously worst case scenario you can kill yourself to wraiths. Honestly, it's not as hard as you guys are making it out to be to get executed.
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On November 02 2010 16:24 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:But I mean, in cases where I think there's gonna be someone who will kill me in their jungle I suicide to top tower. If there's a hero nearby I don't attempt it. It's not like I HAVE TO kill myself, I can easily lane just like anyone else by not suiciding. I just feel like if I can get it off it's great and if not I'm in the same position as everyone else. Jeez, is it really too hard to pull off a tower death without dying to an enemy before there are creeps in the lane? I'd be willing to bet a 2 week ban that I could pull it off 5 times in a row without giving FB. Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 15:50 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On November 02 2010 15:32 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
My elo is shit right now, it's like 1480 because I rarely play ranked and don't duo and have been getting rammus players who force 2v1 mid on me lately but I know the game well enough and have played against enough name drops to understand how a level 1 teamfight works. You guys act like "high elo" is somewhere far out of our reach that we can't understand while in reality it's more like "slightly better players that we occasionally game with". I don't think I'm that much worse than many top ranked players. I can tell by your post that high elo is somewhere far out of reach for your understanding. Not to be a dick, but didn't I stomp you on locodoco's stream a few times?
I have never been on locodoco's stream, and I'm also not high elo.
Now to describe the hilarious game we some how just won. We were losing. They didn't finish baron, leaving it with about 1200hp, we get a triple and steal it. We then push up the pipe (with kog and nunu attack speed increase on him) taking two towers and an inhib, killing 3 or 4 of them again, and then winning.
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So wait, why are you telling me I don't understand the game?
I'm half serious about this. I'm being condescending, but if you know something about high elo that I don't know please feel free to tell me =/.
Like, out of curiosity, how many of these names do you recognize?
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EPT
