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On October 26 2010 22:27 Scipaeus121212 wrote:
I have been thinking lately, what makes cho'gath more viable tank than annie? Cho'gath got 200 more HP at lvl 18 by default and +900 HP for 6 feast stacks (stacks aren't always at full!!!), while annie got +50 armor/magic resist. While that is 1300 gold worth of survivability difference, annie got molten shield, which is not big difference but still counts, got an AoE stun with a pet that has sunfire cape, got mildly damaging and sometimes also stunning low cooldown spells, while Cho got big cooldown hard-to-hit-with knockup+slow, huge cooldown AoE silence and 1 target 800 dmg nuke. I also think from my limited experience that Annie got better laning phase.
So, is my perception twisted, did I miss something, or is annie better tank than Cho'gath is?
as a somewhat regular annie player, i build her tanky and recommend you do the same. first two items for me are always 2 RoA (unless i'm having a real bad game, in which case only 1). my buddy copies my build but takes rylai's instead of a second RoA. either way, by the time you finish your second, unless you're just absolutely destroying the other team and have a soulstealer and can still burst a 2k health target to 0 in one combo, i switch to survivability next. aegis of the legion gives you an *extremely* efficient HP/MR/armor boost and a nice bonus to your team. throw in a banshee after that if the game drags on, and lastly you'll want a voidstaff. combine aegis with molten shroud, banshee, and 2 RoA, and annie's got around 3.8k health with 150+/150+ armor/MR depending on your runes and masteries (i run defensive on both). she's also got a fantastic mana pool so she can turn into a late-game stunbot. you won't be doing much damage to anyone but a squishy, but adding a voidstaff makes your damage output relevant again. alternately if i have a lot of mana hungry champs on my team i'll take soul shroud instead of banshee, and if i have a lot of dps i'll grab starks instead.
in my eyes annie is just dead weight after 25 minutes if you build her purely AP. she's not gonna burst anyone to 0, and she's a paperweight. i'd rather limit her damage output and maximize her survivability/utility. make her the unkillable aura bitch that's got a stun ready every ~8 seconds
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On October 27 2010 00:56 gtrsrs wrote:
yo 5HIT, one thing you aren't considering with stacked HP is that as you spend money on purely HP, an opposing carry will be spending it on purely damage output. if you get 3 warmogs, they're going to get a Bloodrazor, infinity edge, and malady for the same price (or another comparable build with similar damage output). so your MR is shredded to 0 thanks to malady (or if they went last whisper your armor is halved), and if you've got 7000 health, they're doing (base damage[assume 100ish] + 25 + 80) +(20% chance to crit 250% physical damage) + (4% of your max health, which is 280 in this scenario) - resistances (lets give you 100 armor in this matchup and say your MR was completely shredded by malady) = ((205*0.8)+(205*2.5*0.2))*(0.5 for armor reduction) + (280) = 413.5 damage per hit. 7000hp/413.5 damage per hit = 17 hits to kill, shooting at a pretty decent rate thanks to malady.
so yeah, what i'm saying is stacking pure HP against a comparable build is a silly move. eventually their damage output will beat your HP stacking. i mean compare vlad (lots of HP naturally) to garen (lots of armor and MR naturally). garen runs in head first, eats a stun and focus from five people, spins out and survives. vlad runs in head first, eats a stun and drops like a fly.
While I agree with what you're saying, my point is that between stacking hp isn't always unequivocally better than stacking MR/armor because of base resist. I don't stack hp usually though  .
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On October 26 2010 21:07 Stealthpenguin wrote:
When should you go for HP and when should you get MR/armor?
For example when I play Garen i'll usually go boots then sunfire, after that though I don't know what to get. If I'm getting hammered by magic I'll usually get a force of nature but what's the tradeoff compared to a HP-item is what im getting at since if i instead get more HP (another SF or warmogs) that will help against physical damage aswell.
On Garen you want as much HP as possible because his base MR/armor is silly due to Courage. Go merc -> double sunfire -> GA or Banshee's and you're set.
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On October 26 2010 15:59 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
Been rolling around with a group of 5 as PIRATES AND NINJAS. Most Troll team ever. We're 2-0 right now. =p
For those that don't know, MF, GP, Akali, Shen, Kennen. Soooo good.
I was about to say, it's not really a troll team given the fact that they're all scarily efficient at what they do, and you're getting all the component of a good team by running them.
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On October 27 2010 00:45 Brees wrote:
A build that focuses on CD on a char with only 2 abilities? Whatever floats your boat I suppose...It isnt a bad build really besides Ghostblade. That's just a gold sink on ashe
I assume that by 2 Abilities you mean W and R. Hawkshot is an incredibly useful ability, especially lategame as it is impossible to have everything warded (unless the enemy team sucks). So the CDR is for 3 abilities, really.
There are 5 stats that I am looking at when judging an Ashe build:
1) (average) autoattack damage
2) (average) autoattack DPS
3) Volley damage
4) Volley DPS
5) cooldowns of W E R
Because Ashe has no way of keeping up with other ranged DPS champs in terms of autoattack damage/DPS, I value it a bit lower and instead focus on her unique traits.
My data says that Brutalizer > Ghostblade > Brutalizer is the ideal build if you focus on Volley DPS, while still maintaining a decent autoattack DPS. I have not yet spotted a point in the build where I would rather not have a Ghostblade.
And my data doesn't even include the Gostblade Active, which is extremely useful on Ashe.
I really don't see how it's a gold sink. Not at all.
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just a quick aside. Armor and MRes get a lot more efficiency from heals/lifesteal/regen stuff, effectively completely fucking up the whole EHP formula shit for characters like WW/Mundo/Taric/Sona/Sion who accidentally heal themselves like a boss anyway.
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On October 27 2010 01:58 Mogwai wrote:
just a quick aside. Armor and MRes get a lot more efficiency from heals/lifesteal/regen stuff, effectively completely fucking up the whole EHP formula shit for characters like WW/Mundo/Taric/Sona/Sion who accidentally heal themselves like a boss anyway.
Mundo EHP's where he pleases
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Well, not so much Mundo because he heals as a percent of his max health. The more HP you have the more you heal. That's why he's so crazy late game now: you have 1.84 times as much EHP as someone with similar items.
Unless you get ignited.
And don't have QSS.
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If you are in ranked, and you see your up against Mundo, it is highly recommended you get ignite or it will be a pain to play him. Especially late game.
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On October 27 2010 01:58 Mogwai wrote:
just a quick aside. Armor and MRes get a lot more efficiency from heals/lifesteal/regen stuff, effectively completely fucking up the whole EHP formula shit for characters like WW/Mundo/Taric/Sona/Sion who accidentally heal themselves like a boss anyway.
But it does make Spirit Visage one of the best EHP pieces in the entire game, at least for the first 3.
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Opinions on Wicked's Ashe build please:
Phage Zerkers Atma's IE Bruta Stinger
Only saw the end result, dunno how he got there.
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Looks pretty solid, you get good health from phage and slows for killing, Absolutely 100% need mid for this build.
She will die quickly in team fights tho, so care needs to be taken late game
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stinger sounds awful in this. Is the CDR really worth losing the ability to make a LW/Starks/BR if the game drags out?
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On October 27 2010 02:19 Niton wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 01:58 Mogwai wrote:
just a quick aside. Armor and MRes get a lot more efficiency from heals/lifesteal/regen stuff, effectively completely fucking up the whole EHP formula shit for characters like WW/Mundo/Taric/Sona/Sion who accidentally heal themselves like a boss anyway. But it does make Spirit Visage one of the best EHP pieces in the entire game, at least for the first 3.
Spirit Visage is one of the best items in the game anyways, it gives great stats for its price and the heal/regen boost is absolutely amazing.
Mundo's regen is absolutely insane once he gets it and FoN, especially when combined with his passive.
Speaking of health, what are the thoughts on the buffed warmogs? I've seen a ton of people getting it lately and can't really decide if its worth it.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On October 27 2010 02:19 spinesheath wrote:
Opinions on Wicked's Ashe build please:
Phage Zerkers Atma's IE Bruta Stinger
Only saw the end result, dunno how he got there.
why you would do any build besides triple D blade into IE/LW on any ranged carry is beyond me, too strong to pass up. Hell people even build that on kog'maw.
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On October 27 2010 02:28 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 02:19 Niton wrote:On October 27 2010 01:58 Mogwai wrote:
just a quick aside. Armor and MRes get a lot more efficiency from heals/lifesteal/regen stuff, effectively completely fucking up the whole EHP formula shit for characters like WW/Mundo/Taric/Sona/Sion who accidentally heal themselves like a boss anyway. But it does make Spirit Visage one of the best EHP pieces in the entire game, at least for the first 3. Spirit Visage is one of the best items in the game anyways, it gives great stats for its price and the heal/regen boost is absolutely amazing. Mundo's regen is absolutely insane once he gets it and FoN, especially when combined with his passive. Speaking of health, what are the thoughts on the buffed warmogs? I've seen a ton of people getting it lately and can't really decide if its worth it.
HP stacking is OP. That's why they nerfed hp items like crazy. Now with the new warmogs, hp stacking is back.
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On October 27 2010 02:19 spinesheath wrote:
Opinions on Wicked's Ashe build please:
Phage Zerkers Atma's IE Bruta Stinger
Only saw the end result, dunno how he got there.
only questionable items in there are stinger and phage, imo, i guess maybe the phage has a tad bit of synergy with atmas?
stinger is just wtf tho, i would go for a recurve item if you want aspeed. The only marginally good stat it provides is cdr, but assuming he got it last, its kinda a waste of space.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On October 27 2010 02:34 ProV1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 02:28 STS17 wrote:On October 27 2010 02:19 Niton wrote:On October 27 2010 01:58 Mogwai wrote:
just a quick aside. Armor and MRes get a lot more efficiency from heals/lifesteal/regen stuff, effectively completely fucking up the whole EHP formula shit for characters like WW/Mundo/Taric/Sona/Sion who accidentally heal themselves like a boss anyway. But it does make Spirit Visage one of the best EHP pieces in the entire game, at least for the first 3. Spirit Visage is one of the best items in the game anyways, it gives great stats for its price and the heal/regen boost is absolutely amazing. Mundo's regen is absolutely insane once he gets it and FoN, especially when combined with his passive. Speaking of health, what are the thoughts on the buffed warmogs? I've seen a ton of people getting it lately and can't really decide if its worth it. HP stacking is OP. That's why they nerfed hp items like crazy. Now with the new warmogs, hp stacking is back.
yea warmog's sivir is ownage again, was rolling kids with it last night
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On October 27 2010 02:28 STS17 wrote:
Speaking of health, what are the thoughts on the buffed warmogs? I've seen a ton of people getting it lately and can't really decide if its worth it.
Some math I just did:
*These are based on the website values.
Health: 1110 gold -> 430 health (giant belt)
Regen: 435 gold -> 15 hp5 (regrowth pendant)
Warmog empty:
770 health = 1987 gold
30 hp5 = 870 gold
Worth - Cost = Value
2857 - 3120 = -263 (worth less than you paid)
Warmog Full:
1220 health = 3152 gold
92.5 hp5 = 2684 gold
5836 - 3120 = 2716 (whoa)
Conclusion: When empty, it is just under what the money could have bought you in primary items, but when full, is worth about 3k more than you paid for it, assuming you need the health (probably) and the regen (less likely). Another way to look at it is that full, the health gained is worth the cost alone, and the regen is simply extra (92.5 hp5 at that).
I have never built it on anyone but after this I may start. Please double check this and point out any mistakes.
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The math you are doing is for the old Warmog's. It got changed last patch.
+920 Health +30 Health Regen per 5 sec Passive: Permanently gain 4.5 Health and .15 Health Regen per 5 sec per minion kill. Champion kills grant 45 Health and 1.5 Health Regen per 5 sec. Bonuses cap at +450 Health, and +15 Health Regen per 5.
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EPT
