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Skill is buying an item and putting it in the bushes?
Sorry, but individual examples do not translate skill in a team game. There is nothing in this game that requires an APM (or something like that) that prevents me from doing things an expert player does.
So for your example, MF can flash away from WW and be free but then she can't do that again for a very long time so now she'd better play differently during that time or she WILL be ganked. If she ever uses her flash during laning it's nice to let your jungler/ganker friends know, etc.
Edit: Just because you won't get a kill is no reason not to try to gank. You shouldn't try to gank if it'll get YOU killed, your teammates killed, or if there's more to gain from jungling/whatever. It constantly amuses me when people type stuff like "lol fail gank" as they're b-ing back to the fountain.
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I actually think their solution is pretty interesting. A lot of heroes will struggle to decide between Flash and Treads. I also feel like, as in the above example, for a lot of heroes (more often than heroes otherwise) Flash just makes them more noobified. Yes, there're going to be heroes shafted, most notably Alistar (no Flash stun kills his lane presence) but for the majority of heroes investing in Flash boots mid-late game (ie. Galio, Annie, etc.) is a fine compromise.
Edit:
On October 26 2010 06:15 Scamp wrote:
Skill is buying an item and putting it in the bushes?
Sorry, but individual examples do not translate skill in a team game. There is nothing in this game that requires an APM (or something like that) that prevents me from doing things an expert player does.
So for your example, MF can flash away from WW and be free but then she can't do that again for a very long time so now she'd better play differently during that time or she WILL be ganked. If she ever uses her flash during laning it's nice to let your jungler/ganker friends know, etc.
Skill is knowing when to concede a lane in favor of buying a ward (yes, this involves time and money) to ward a bush (or bushes).
MF can flash away from WW and be free and know that she just has to play relatively safe for about a minute; this wastes WW's time and ends up being a lose-lose situation for the WW. As Haemonculus said, it's extremely depressing to the point of not even wanting to bother trying to gank mid pre-6 (for Duress) if they have Flash because you have almost a 0% chance of success, and the time spent failing a gank (esp if you blow skills) shafts your map presence.
I fail to see how clicking D (or F) somehow is considered more skill than knowing how to ward.
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whats a good jungle shaco build now?
right now i've been going lantern, swiftness, sheen, inf edge, GA, BT
'grats on 1337 pages btw
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On October 26 2010 06:11 Haemonculus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 06:08 Southlight wrote:
It's a problem solo mid, too. When an MF (for instance) is boldly fighting at opposing tower and WW comes in, it's BS that she can just Flash over the WW and be free. This doesn't take skill. Skill would be warding the bushes etc. to prevent being ganked. Too true... i often won't even bother going for a gank if I know that person has flash.
sometimes i will gank knowing i wont kill them, with the sole purpose of getting them to burn their flash so i will be able to gank them in the next couple minutes
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On October 26 2010 05:29 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:24 gtrsrs wrote:I'm determined tomake trynd work but after the first jungle run, if your gank fails you're just kind of dead in the water. You also don't want to teamfights at this point cause you've only got avarice and boots at this point. Also, holy shit I never realized how strong early dragon was. I mean I knew it was strong but never so much! In my jungletrynd game I was running bot to gank at level 4 and I crossed WW doing dragon. I had just used smite on red so I tried to just pull him off of it while I waited for my team. sillyme I forgot it was 940 elo and no one was coming. He smited dragon and then turned on me, killing me before I could get away. Boom, two level advantage. I was never evenclose to catching him after that  first of all who jungles at 950 elo and second of all who does earlydragon? Broken IMO Too bad as the jungler your entire point of existence is to create skirmishes(2v1 top, 3v2 bot, 3v3/4v4 @ dragon). If you are a champ who is afraid to participate in these, you're going to get bullied in your jungle, get dragon taken from you consistently, and not be able to give your team the map control a jungler is supposed to.
Then again if you have trynd in your team you really want to drag the game on until he has his IE. Ideally with champs that can easily hold their lanes. I don't think he fits into the usual cookie cutter team composition.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 26 2010 06:15 Southlight wrote:
I actually think their solution is pretty interesting. A lot of heroes will struggle to decide between Flash and Treads. I also feel like, as in the above example, for a lot of heroes (more often than heroes otherwise) Flash just makes them more noobified. Yes, there're going to be heroes shafted, most notably Alistar (no Flash stun kills his lane presence) but for the majority of heroes investing in Flash boots mid-late game (ie. Galio, Annie, etc.) is a fine compromise.
Question with regard to treads an Cleanse: Does the 35% cc resistance from Treads stack additively with the 65% from Cleanse to be 100% immunity for 3 seconds?
On October 26 2010 06:16 Frolossus wrote:
whats a good jungle shaco build now?
right now i've been going lantern, swiftness, sheen, inf edge, GA, BT
'grats on 1337 pages btw
I thought Bloodrazor was considered better because the passive scaled fully into the clone's damage?
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On October 26 2010 06:16 Frolossus wrote:
whats a good jungle shaco build now?
right now i've been going lantern, swiftness, sheen, inf edge, GA, BT
'grats on 1337 pages btw
skip the sheen, i would rather have mercs or mobility, depending on the game. Other than that your build seems fine to me, cept for maybe more survivability later if you feel you need it in the given game
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On October 26 2010 06:16 StuffedTurkey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 06:11 Haemonculus wrote:On October 26 2010 06:08 Southlight wrote:
It's a problem solo mid, too. When an MF (for instance) is boldly fighting at opposing tower and WW comes in, it's BS that she can just Flash over the WW and be free. This doesn't take skill. Skill would be warding the bushes etc. to prevent being ganked. Too true... i often won't even bother going for a gank if I know that person has flash. sometimes i will gank knowing i wont kill them, with the sole purpose of getting them to burn their flash so i will be able to gank them in the next couple minutes
Yet the good players just say trolled! and play safe for a bit.
It's an added no-skill buffer at early-game laning for solo lanes that I'd rather do without.
Edit:
If you've been caught out of position, you deserve to die. It's pretty simple to me. Flash just makes it so you can be caught out of position and not die. EZPZ. I understand the merits of Flash mid-late game as heroes desperately need it (Galio/Annie) or can use it for re-positioning (ranged DPS, etc.) but I'm also very much fine with it being a tradeoff (Flash Boots instead of Treads/Zerker for instance).
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On October 26 2010 06:19 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 06:15 Southlight wrote:
I actually think their solution is pretty interesting. A lot of heroes will struggle to decide between Flash and Treads. I also feel like, as in the above example, for a lot of heroes (more often than heroes otherwise) Flash just makes them more noobified. Yes, there're going to be heroes shafted, most notably Alistar (no Flash stun kills his lane presence) but for the majority of heroes investing in Flash boots mid-late game (ie. Galio, Annie, etc.) is a fine compromise. Question with regard to treads an Cleanse: Does the 35% cc resistance from Treads stack additively with the 65% from Cleanse to be 100% immunity for 3 seconds? Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 06:16 Frolossus wrote:
whats a good jungle shaco build now?
right now i've been going lantern, swiftness, sheen, inf edge, GA, BT
'grats on 1337 pages btw I thought Bloodrazor was considered better because the passive scaled fully into the clone's damage?
im pretty sure is multiplicative, not additive
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On October 26 2010 06:20 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 06:16 StuffedTurkey wrote:On October 26 2010 06:11 Haemonculus wrote:On October 26 2010 06:08 Southlight wrote:
It's a problem solo mid, too. When an MF (for instance) is boldly fighting at opposing tower and WW comes in, it's BS that she can just Flash over the WW and be free. This doesn't take skill. Skill would be warding the bushes etc. to prevent being ganked. Too true... i often won't even bother going for a gank if I know that person has flash. sometimes i will gank knowing i wont kill them, with the sole purpose of getting them to burn their flash so i will be able to gank them in the next couple minutes Yet the good players just say trolled! and play safe for a bit. It's an added no-skill buffer at early-game laning for solo lanes that I'd rather do without.
true they do lol, although it forces them to play safer for what...3 or 4 minutes? thats still usefull to your teammate laning against them, and worth it imo unless there is a decent chance of them turning around and killing you(lol) but generally you should have a good assumption of their damage output and not go in if they can kill you
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they need to completely redo Alistar without flash though. Flash boots won't be nearly enough.
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On October 26 2010 06:24 Mogwai wrote:
they need to completely redo Alistar without flash though. Flash boots won't be nearly enough.
It'd also be too late, given that Flash Stun is like his whole point of existence for half the game. Not sure what they can do there ;/
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
on most junglers its more beneficial ive found to just continually farm your jungle, if you know you have competent players laning for you. otherwise you'll prob want to help out ganking
on champs that clear it fast like warwick and udyr it can be the difference between being lvled the same as their solo and being lvled like a sidelane and 500-1000 gold if you never stop to try and gank and just keep clearing jungle
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United States47024 Posts
On October 26 2010 06:22 Southlight wrote:
Cleanse... 65%...?
It's what it says in game.
Other sources say 50%. Now I'm confused.
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On October 26 2010 06:25 TheYango wrote:It's what it says in game. Other sources say 50%. Now I'm confused.
I'm confused D:
Cleanse, the summoner spell, removes all CC instantly. There's no 3-second effect AFAIK?
I know like a year ago they experimented with it making you immune to CC etc. for 3 seconds after you use it but they scrapped that really fast hahah.
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it was nerfed down to 50% and the stacking is multiplicitive.
I agree entirely with brees. on WW and Udyr I spend SSOOOOOOOO much time ricing in the jungle and then midgame hits and I'm just like Bloodrazors + mercs + Banshee's lol GG or Omen + HoG + Mercs + Banshee's lol GG.
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Wait it still has the 3-second after-effect then? /o\ How did I not know this.
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If they add flash boots, and remove flash i sincerely hope they make them 2k or something semi expensive like merc, should be a reason other than a "lol i dont have to worry about positioning cause ive got flash herp"
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On October 26 2010 06:29 Southlight wrote:
Wait it still has the 3-second after-effect then? /o\ How did I not know this.
It some amount of seconds (I personally thought it was 2) that reduces the duration of additional snares, stuns, etc by a percentage. This would most definitely stack multiplicatively with merc treads (since they're not trying to break the game here).
Personally I think removing flash is a crutch and a blessing. It means wards go up in value tremendously and ganking out of a bush is like 100000x more effective since they cant just flash back into their tower.
The champions that want it for initiation can buy the boots and sacrifice a little stats.
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EPT
