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United States47024 Posts
On October 26 2010 06:15 Scamp wrote:
Edit: Just because you won't get a kill is no reason not to try to gank. You shouldn't try to gank if it'll get YOU killed, your teammates killed, or if there's more to gain from jungling/whatever. It constantly amuses me when people type stuff like "lol fail gank" as they're b-ing back to the fountain.
I think the point is that regardless of the fact that a gank is still beneficial, it juts simply reduces how harshly punished bad players are for overextending themselves. Having flash on CD is still some punishment, but it's way less harsh to just have to burn Flash instead of dying for overextending.
The "many overpowered options" argument that Phunkapotamus brings up is silly because if you look at why those overpowered options add to the competitive experience, it makes the case for removing Flash. Things like Defilers in SC1 that are absurdly strong add to a competitive game because they punish you harshly for not being prepared for them. If you don't have an answer to Defilers in TvZ when they come out, you will lose the game. They make the game strong competitively because they make the difference very clear between a strong player and a weak one--because they turn what a poor player might consider a minor oversight into a game-losing disadvantage. Flash in general is the opposite of this, because instead of magnifying those disadvantages created by poor play, it nullifies them, such as the situation presented where overextending in lane merely causes you to burn your get-out-of-jail free card instead of resulting in your death.
EDIT: Of course, Flash-initiation probably falls more in the category of punishing poor play harshly, but that's probably part of why they're keeping it on boots for those that want it for that purpose. In it's current implementation, I see it far more as a crutch for overextending than I do as an initiation tool (and I admit, I'm guilty of using it as a crutch myself).
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It's a 2-second after effect afaik that reduces future CC by 65% or something?
Personally I still like cleanse, and run it religiously on Malzahar and Morde.
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On October 26 2010 06:32 arb wrote:
If they add flash boots, and remove flash i sincerely hope they make them 2k or something semi expensive like merc, should be a reason other than a "lol i dont have to worry about positioning cause ive got flash herp"
Last time they were on the test realm they were i think 1350 (which is 150 more than merc treads?)
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On October 26 2010 06:16 StuffedTurkey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 06:11 Haemonculus wrote:On October 26 2010 06:08 Southlight wrote:
It's a problem solo mid, too. When an MF (for instance) is boldly fighting at opposing tower and WW comes in, it's BS that she can just Flash over the WW and be free. This doesn't take skill. Skill would be warding the bushes etc. to prevent being ganked. Too true... i often won't even bother going for a gank if I know that person has flash. sometimes i will gank knowing i wont kill them, with the sole purpose of getting them to burn their flash so i will be able to gank them in the next couple minutes
If there's no other opportunity, then yeah. But if the MF soloing mid has flash, and another lane has people without flash, then the choice of who to gank first is pretty clear.
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On October 26 2010 06:29 Southlight wrote:
Wait it still has the 3-second after-effect then? /o\ How did I not know this.
yea, and to think RadJacob got on my case for not knowing how often cannon minions spawn :p
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2010 00:27 Seuss wrote:How do you feel your jungling path compares to this guy's? He goes back after blue buff, but thanks to boots reaches the golems only ~6 seconds after they respawn. He skips red buff on his second pass, then does a third pass which starts with red before doing dragon or ganking.
That path looks perfectly fine, though I prefer mine to use as much HP as possible on run #1 before going back. This means red will be slightly slower (by the amount of time it takes to run back to it), but will end up with more HP during any possible gank situations from the other jungler. He also seems to focus on ganking at level 6 where mine the focus is dragon. I can't say what's better because of my crappy Elo 
I could be completely off base on that though, it's all in theory right now and would take a bunch of games testing to get the details figured out.
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Eh? People use flash to escape? I usually use it in an oh shit situation to snag a kill.
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On October 26 2010 06:34 Phrost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 06:32 arb wrote:
If they add flash boots, and remove flash i sincerely hope they make them 2k or something semi expensive like merc, should be a reason other than a "lol i dont have to worry about positioning cause ive got flash herp" Last time they were on the test realm they were i think 1350 (which is 150 more than merc treads?)
What are the specifics(cd etc)
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I'm kinda torn over all this. I'm just imagining getting jumped by, or trying to gank someone who has flash in addition to 2 summoner spells. Kinda scary thought, lol.
But then I suppose you could say the same of QSS and that it's a free cleanse so people *could* be running it.
But then... everyone gets boots anyway, so it's not quite like QSS as an elective item. Regardless it'll be interesting to see what happens.
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On October 26 2010 06:45 Haemonculus wrote:
I'm kinda torn over all this. I'm just imagining getting jumped by, or trying to gank someone who has flash in addition to 2 summoner spells. Kinda scary thought, lol.
But then I suppose you could say the same of QSS and that it's a free cleanse so people *could* be running it.
But then... everyone gets boots anyway, so it's not quite like QSS as an elective item. Regardless it'll be interesting to see what happens.
QSS is stronger than cleanse too :p
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United States47024 Posts
On October 26 2010 06:47 StuffedTurkey wrote:
QSS is stronger than cleanse too :p
Removes more effects vs. 50% resistance for 3 seconds. I'd say its at least comparable?
Personally I would like Cleanse more if it was 65% resistance and stacked additively with treads. ^^
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The one thing about removing flash is that, yes, it does punish players by removing their "get out of jail free" card. But I think it'll also make it so people are LESS aggressive during the laning phase with the exception of jungler/gankers.
Also Morgana, Kennen, and MF would be even more annoying to lane against IMO.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 26 2010 06:50 Scamp wrote:
The one thing about removing flash is that, yes, it does punish players by removing their "get out of jail free" card. But I think it'll also make it so people are LESS aggressive during the laning phase with the exception of jungler/gankers.
I don't see how a less aggressive laning phase is definitively better or worse. I'd say that's a matter of preference. But punishing bad play more harshly is definitively better, IMO.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
if this flash ---> flash boots thing actually goes through, get ready for even more league of CC when half the people on your team dont buy merc treads because "these boots have flash bro OP!!'
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On October 26 2010 06:49 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 06:47 StuffedTurkey wrote:
QSS is stronger than cleanse too :p Removes more effects vs. 50% resistance for 3 seconds. I'd say its at least comparable? Personally I would like Cleanse more if it was 65% resistance and stacked additively with treads. ^^
oh im not saying cleanse is bad in the least, i was just saying QSS was better since it works on suppression and some other effects cleanse doesnt
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On October 26 2010 06:20 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 06:16 StuffedTurkey wrote:On October 26 2010 06:11 Haemonculus wrote:On October 26 2010 06:08 Southlight wrote:
It's a problem solo mid, too. When an MF (for instance) is boldly fighting at opposing tower and WW comes in, it's BS that she can just Flash over the WW and be free. This doesn't take skill. Skill would be warding the bushes etc. to prevent being ganked. Too true... i often won't even bother going for a gank if I know that person has flash. sometimes i will gank knowing i wont kill them, with the sole purpose of getting them to burn their flash so i will be able to gank them in the next couple minutes Yet the good players just say trolled! and play safe for a bit. It's an added no-skill buffer at early-game laning for solo lanes that I'd rather do without. Edit: If you've been caught out of position, you deserve to die. It's pretty simple to me. Flash just makes it so you can be caught out of position and not die. EZPZ. I understand the merits of Flash mid-late game as heroes desperately need it (Galio/Annie) or can use it for re-positioning (ranged DPS, etc.) but I'm also very much fine with it being a tradeoff (Flash Boots instead of Treads/Zerker for instance).
The Kassadin player hating on flash lol
If they make the flash boots as awesome as blink dagger then I won't complain
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On October 26 2010 06:25 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 06:24 Mogwai wrote:
they need to completely redo Alistar without flash though. Flash boots won't be nearly enough. It'd also be too late, given that Flash Stun is like his whole point of existence for half the game. Not sure what they can do there ;/
"rework" his knockup to "instalny teleports alistar into chosen spot and knock all enemies around in air".
THAT WOULD BE BALANCED!
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On October 26 2010 06:52 Brees wrote:
if this flash ---> flash boots thing actually goes through, get ready for even more league of CC when half the people on your team dont buy merc treads because "these boots have flash bro OP!!'
I don't see why ANYTHING should be removed from the game.. Why not just give it double cooldown and make unused summoner spells more powerful?
Silly decision to lower complexity.
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On October 26 2010 06:52 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 06:50 Scamp wrote:
The one thing about removing flash is that, yes, it does punish players by removing their "get out of jail free" card. But I think it'll also make it so people are LESS aggressive during the laning phase with the exception of jungler/gankers. I don't see how a less aggressive laning phase is definitively better or worse. I'd say that's a matter of preference. But punishing bad play more harshly is definitively better, IMO.
Well the designers have constantly stated that they want this game to favor aggression from level 1 on.
I don't consider it bad play to get caught out of position and then have to flash out. Well, not necessarily, anyway. Sometimes I like to take a risky play that I know I can escape from if I have flash, which could end up with me getting a kill if things go well.
Constantly getting into bad positions is something that even flash won't save you from. So I honestly don't see the removal of flash as a punish of bad play, but moreso a stronger deterrent of early-game aggression.
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Poll: Remove flash and place it on boots? *assume equal value to merc treadsNo (28) 78% Yes (8) 22% 36 total votes Your vote: Remove flash and place it on boots? *assume equal value to merc treads (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Lets take a vote.
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EPT
