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On October 26 2010 03:00 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 02:50 spinesheath wrote:
Why would you go GB/B over IE on a heavily crit based champ? Makes no sense at all imo. Get Avarice as appropriate and then rush IE if you want damage.
doesn't yuomou's give crit chance? and armor pen is always good on dps champs. IE is just such a big investment. start crit cloak, get no damage. start bf sword, get no damage for forever and when you get damage you've got no crit. start pickaxe and get a little damage but no crit. i dunno it just feels like a late-game item for trynd. Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 02:53 STS17 wrote:
I was doing it all yesterday, ASPD reds armor yellows mres/lv blues and health quints. Start with green pot and 5 health pots. Take Q at level 1 (increases your damage and provides an emergency heal if needed, though you shouldnt need it) starting at small golems -> wraiths -> wolves -> blue is safest but the generic blue start is also possible. Actually, I might have been running ms quints I dont remember
I've done it with 4/18/8 since you don't need the buffs except for ganks the duration isn't super important but 19/3/9 also works for more offensive abilities later in the game but is less safe and more reliant on steady crits.
Overall he's a pretty decent jungler and can actually do it pretty quickly though his gank is only meh-ish against good players. Dragon can be done around level 7 safely and earlier requires a bit more care.
Skilling goes Bloodlust Spin Bloodlust Shout then basically your choice though I prefer bloodlust to be maxed first. Note: Use the spin to skip over walls and you can jungle faster, it's high health cost doesnt lend itself to being spammed in jungle early on though nice. i've got all of those runes except attack speed. i think i'll try a run with armor pen reds but other than that follow your advice. green pot start, why didn't i think of that -_- do you spin the creeps while fighting them or just auto attack ftw?
The ASPD is fairly important because more attacks = more crits = more Bloodthirst stacks = more damage = better heal when needed. Generally I will spin into the creep camps to toss a little damage around (excepting wraiths because it causes you to take a full attack from all 4 before allowing your auto attack again and they heal the damage anyways) and then again to hop over the wall towards the next camp. Generally you will do more damage by not interupting your attack sequence with it and just standing there auto attacking.
You're actually fairly decent against most other junglers because you will hit harder then them and have on-demand heal and escape mechanisms, plus an anti-run-away mechanic which also reduces the damage they deal.
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On October 26 2010 06:58 Scamp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 06:52 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2010 06:50 Scamp wrote:
The one thing about removing flash is that, yes, it does punish players by removing their "get out of jail free" card. But I think it'll also make it so people are LESS aggressive during the laning phase with the exception of jungler/gankers. I don't see how a less aggressive laning phase is definitively better or worse. I'd say that's a matter of preference. But punishing bad play more harshly is definitively better, IMO. Well the designers have constantly stated that they want this game to favor aggression from level 1 on. I don't consider it bad play to get caught out of position and then have to flash out. Well, not necessarily, anyway. Sometimes I like to take a risky play that I know I can escape from if I have flash, which could end up with me getting a kill if things go well. Constantly getting into bad positions is something that even flash won't save you from. So I honestly don't see the removal of flash as a punish of bad play, but moreso a stronger deterrent of early-game aggression.
The thing is it gives you so many options from level one onwards, you can make some exceptionally brave plays and get out safely or use it for some crazy aggression. When playing Kat or Ezreal or Jax I often will use flash to jump a wall and escape (baiting their flash / blinks) and then use Shunpo/Arcane Shift/Leap Strike to go back over the same wall and run away freely.
Plus, if they put it on boots then people will just get the flash boots and the merc treads if they really need them...that won't change anything.
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I can't decide. I voted no because it'll gimp some of the fun aggressive plays that can occur at early levels. Now I'm reconsidering because of the insane gank protection it offers to solo lanes. It's really a tough call.
That said, if they do go on boots, I hope they'll cost more than merc treads.
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On October 26 2010 07:28 Rho_ wrote:
I can't decide. I voted no because it'll gimp some of the fun aggressive plays that can occur at early levels. Now I'm reconsidering because of the insane gank protection it offers to solo lanes. It's really a tough call.
That said, if they do go on boots, I hope they'll cost more than merc treads.
Imagine how much aggressive play is nullified/not even tried because people know the other players have Flash.
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I'm fine with those boots I guess (I don't even use Flash on Ashe, Cleanse ftw!), as long as the price is high enough.
Is it a straigh Boots1 -> Flash Boots recipie or are there other stats with it? Enhanced Movement 2 I would assume? If it's just flat T2 boots with Flash (on the same cooldown), I guess 1350 is fine. I wouldn't go below that though.
Today we played against the following team:
Kennen Pirate Galio Fiddle Nunu
Can you guess their gameplan?
And then I got a triple kill + double kill into ace in another game. Not fair!
Great games as usual, <3 TL.
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On October 26 2010 07:31 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 07:28 Rho_ wrote:
I can't decide. I voted no because it'll gimp some of the fun aggressive plays that can occur at early levels. Now I'm reconsidering because of the insane gank protection it offers to solo lanes. It's really a tough call.
That said, if they do go on boots, I hope they'll cost more than merc treads. Imagine how much aggressive play is nullified/not even tried because people know the other players have Flash.
Yeah, that's what I meant by the "gank protection" comment. I'd really like to play a few games with it to see for sure how it plays out.
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On October 26 2010 07:09 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 06:58 Scamp wrote:On October 26 2010 06:52 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2010 06:50 Scamp wrote:
The one thing about removing flash is that, yes, it does punish players by removing their "get out of jail free" card. But I think it'll also make it so people are LESS aggressive during the laning phase with the exception of jungler/gankers. I don't see how a less aggressive laning phase is definitively better or worse. I'd say that's a matter of preference. But punishing bad play more harshly is definitively better, IMO. Well the designers have constantly stated that they want this game to favor aggression from level 1 on. I don't consider it bad play to get caught out of position and then have to flash out. Well, not necessarily, anyway. Sometimes I like to take a risky play that I know I can escape from if I have flash, which could end up with me getting a kill if things go well. Constantly getting into bad positions is something that even flash won't save you from. So I honestly don't see the removal of flash as a punish of bad play, but moreso a stronger deterrent of early-game aggression. The thing is it gives you so many options from level one onwards, you can make some exceptionally brave plays and get out safely or use it for some crazy aggression. When playing Kat or Ezreal or Jax I often will use flash to jump a wall and escape (baiting their flash / blinks) and then use Shunpo/Arcane Shift/Leap Strike to go back over the same wall and run away freely. Plus, if they put it on boots then people will just get the flash boots and the merc treads if they really need them...that won't change anything.
Putting it on boots changes a lot actually. The most obvious being that for the early game no one will have Flash. When you complete the boots will have an impact on the game. This will place a greater emphasis on ganking, and on Ghost/Exhaust as anti-ganking summoner spells.
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im perfectly fine with them removing flash, when im on vent with ppl and im jungling, i guarantee you that i'll say 'fuck flash' about 4-5 times during the course of the game
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United States47024 Posts
I voted no because of "equal value to merc treads" and because I'm not sure putting it on boots are the most elegant solution. For an ability like Flash, I might even be willing to deal with the boots redundancy with Treads simply because both Flash and Treads provide such good value.
Troll solution: Dblade + Dring + Dshield = Flash charm (provides Flash activatable and no other stats)
On October 26 2010 06:58 Scamp wrote:
I don't consider it bad play to get caught out of position and then have to flash out. Well, not necessarily, anyway. Sometimes I like to take a risky play that I know I can escape from if I have flash, which could end up with me getting a kill if things go well.
You can still take those plays. They'll just be reliant on having the map awareness to have a reasonable guess on where their jungler is, instead of just doing it because Flash is off CD.
Being able to dive for a kill just because Flash is off CD is silly. Diving for a kill because you and your teammates have determined that their jungler is not in a position to be able to respond in time is smart play. Not to mention that the fact that the opponent won't have Flash means that playing out the latter correctly will have a higher chance of success.
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On October 26 2010 05:29 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:24 gtrsrs wrote:I'm determined tomake trynd work but after the first jungle run, if your gank fails you're just kind of dead in the water. You also don't want to teamfights at this point cause you've only got avarice and boots at this point. Also, holy shit I never realized how strong early dragon was. I mean I knew it was strong but never so much! In my jungletrynd game I was running bot to gank at level 4 and I crossed WW doing dragon. I had just used smite on red so I tried to just pull him off of it while I waited for my team. sillyme I forgot it was 940 elo and no one was coming. He smited dragon and then turned on me, killing me before I could get away. Boom, two level advantage. I was never evenclose to catching him after that  first of all who jungles at 950 elo and second of all who does earlydragon? Broken IMO Too bad as the jungler your entire point of existence is to create skirmishes(2v1 top, 3v2 bot, 3v3/4v4 @ dragon). If you are a champ who is afraid to participate in these, you're going to get bullied in your jungle, get dragon taken from you consistently, and not be able to give your team the map control a jungler is supposed to.
well yeah, that's why i gank a lane at level 4. i'm just saying if the gank fails and you don't get that early gold (aka early item) advantage, trynd isn't really super effective pre-6. so i don't want to teamfight at dragon when i don't have my trusty ult.
also my thoughts on flash boots:
i think their value is going to depend a lot on the cooldown of flash, the range of it, and the movespeed they offer. iirc, QSS has a shorter cooldown than cleanse, so if we can assume flash boots will have a shorter cooldown than flash does now, and approximately the same range, and gives movespeed 2 or 3, it'll be an extremely valuable item.
i mean looking now, flash+ghost+QSS makes you virtually unkillable to anything less than like 3 stuns, and allows you to play really recklessly without fear of being punished cause you have both get out of jail free cards. won't flash boots just work in the same way? flash boots takes care of your boots AND your get out of jail free card though, so you won't have to buy an extra item like you do now with QSS. now you take ghost/cleanse on everyone, grab your flash boots and just do whatever the fuck you want.
i honestly think (and have stated since summoner level 11 or whenever you get flash) that flash would be balanced perfectly if they doubled its range and made it have mechanics like garen's passive - it only works if you haven't taken *any* damage in the last 7 seconds. that makes it the perfect initiation item on champs like galio and annie, and takes away its ability to just be like herp derp can't gank me (except on people who've got good reflexes. blink dagger in dota is an awesome item for escaping if you can hit it right when the gank starts or if you can get some jukes off in the forest and not take damage for a few seconds)
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On October 26 2010 07:35 Rho_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 07:31 Southlight wrote:On October 26 2010 07:28 Rho_ wrote:
I can't decide. I voted no because it'll gimp some of the fun aggressive plays that can occur at early levels. Now I'm reconsidering because of the insane gank protection it offers to solo lanes. It's really a tough call.
That said, if they do go on boots, I hope they'll cost more than merc treads. Imagine how much aggressive play is nullified/not even tried because people know the other players have Flash. Yeah, that's what I meant by the "gank protection" comment. I'd really like to play a few games with it to see for sure how it plays out.
If i see them with flash i wont even bother going to the lane, its a 100% chance they'll just flash away and the play safe and you wont be able to do shit
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On October 26 2010 07:37 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 07:09 STS17 wrote:On October 26 2010 06:58 Scamp wrote:On October 26 2010 06:52 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2010 06:50 Scamp wrote:
The one thing about removing flash is that, yes, it does punish players by removing their "get out of jail free" card. But I think it'll also make it so people are LESS aggressive during the laning phase with the exception of jungler/gankers. I don't see how a less aggressive laning phase is definitively better or worse. I'd say that's a matter of preference. But punishing bad play more harshly is definitively better, IMO. Well the designers have constantly stated that they want this game to favor aggression from level 1 on. I don't consider it bad play to get caught out of position and then have to flash out. Well, not necessarily, anyway. Sometimes I like to take a risky play that I know I can escape from if I have flash, which could end up with me getting a kill if things go well. Constantly getting into bad positions is something that even flash won't save you from. So I honestly don't see the removal of flash as a punish of bad play, but moreso a stronger deterrent of early-game aggression. The thing is it gives you so many options from level one onwards, you can make some exceptionally brave plays and get out safely or use it for some crazy aggression. When playing Kat or Ezreal or Jax I often will use flash to jump a wall and escape (baiting their flash / blinks) and then use Shunpo/Arcane Shift/Leap Strike to go back over the same wall and run away freely. Plus, if they put it on boots then people will just get the flash boots and the merc treads if they really need them...that won't change anything. Putting it on boots changes a lot actually. The most obvious being that for the early game no one will have Flash. When you complete the boots will have an impact on the game. This will place a greater emphasis on ganking, and on Ghost/Exhaust as anti-ganking summoner spells.
Agreed, but removing the summoner spell better come with a look at all the other summoner spells.
For example, will Ghost + Exhaust + Flash Boots + Blink mechanic be too strong of a gank on some champions? Without flash, will the recently nerfed Ghost be powerful enough as the only escape mechanic available via summoner spells? Will there simply be more people taking ignite / exhaust along with ghost instead of ghost + flash and how will that change things?
More importantly, will many champions which rely on flash for devastating combos but perhaps still require better movespeed be hit too hard by this?
IMO there should just be abilities and counter-abilities through summoner spells, such as "Promote: Make super minion" is countered by "Smite: deals damage to minion or instantly kills a promoted minon" and Flash functioning as is but "Exhaust: Target cannot flash while exhausted" to assist in ganks and maybe "Ignite: Cannot cast summoner heal while ignited" and "Heal: Provides a short duration buff making you immune to ignite temporarily" so they can be used to prevent each other
Stuff like that would make summoner spells much more interesting when deciding which two you take and offer more in-depth decisions to the players, such as do you exhaust as you initiate the gank so they can not flash away or do you notice that the "metagame" includes a lot of players running flash so you pick exhaust to make your ganks more effective.
They are going about it the wrong way entirely and I believe something similar to the above would be much better for the game as a whole. That and buffing UP champs instead of nerfing OP champs because it punishes ignorance and forces better play much more effectively then the opposite.
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I'd rather see Flash stay in, the times where it's used skillfully outweigh the 'oh shit flash out' situations in my mind, especially when a lot of those 'oh shit flash out' times are only created because someone knows they have flash.
Flash also happens to be like the only tool in the game that creates 'jukes' whether it be in the jungle over a wall, or entering a bush->flashing behind the person chasing you.
All of this coming from a person who runs ghost/cleanse and ghost/smite on my 2 'mains.'
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I don't like your system of counters simply because it removes the punitive effect of misusing summoner spells. Right now using Heal during Ignite is a mistake 90% of the time, and being forced to put it off until Ignite ends will actually benefit the player. Similarly, if you miss hitting Ignite before an enemy hits Heal, you've already failed to counter the enemy.
But the basic principle of reexamining summoner spells is something I agree with. A number are fairly lol-worthy save in specific circumstances (Revive Pantheon is hilariously awesome).
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Yeah, I don't agree with the blanket statement that Flash rewards poor play (aka being out of position). If you know you have Flash available, I would argue that being "out of position" isn't poor play, it's just taking advantage of the abilities available to you. And if you're out of position all the time, well, one Flash every few minutes isn't going to save you.
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yeah summoner spell counters is silly. spells are already counters to things. ghost counters champs who are faster than you (and flash to an extent), ignite counters heal and mundo, exhaust counters dps champs, rally counters towers at level 1 (jkjk but srsly), clairvoyance counters junglers and gankers, fortify counters pushes, teleport counters pushes... they all have uses as a counter to something right now. hell revive counters focusing someone down cause they'll just come back
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Currently 7 sign-ups
OK guys, with the demise of Gozey, I'm going to (try to?) run a TL inhouse. Unlike Gozey, I'm going to try to mix things up a bit to keep things fun, since TL has a pretty diverse skill range. Sign up by November 12th, tournament on November 14th, 17:00 GMT (+00:00) 19:00 GMT (+00:00) (note: this will be after daylight savings ends, so it'll be 2pm eastern time; TL's time tag may currently imply 3pm eastern) (second note: moved 2 hours later so west coasters can play). Here are the rules:
Signups are individual. I will cut off at multiples of five. If I get 27 signups, the last two people to sign up will be dropped.
PM me to sign up.
Teams will be auto-generated based on ELO to keep things even.
Series will be three games.
Game 1: Teams will draft from the week's free champions (10 free champs means no bans). You are drafting for the OTHER TEAM. In other words, you want to pick the worst, weakest, most unbalanced composition possible. Standard 1-2-2-2-2-1 pick order.
Game 2: Teams will take turns banning from the free champions, 1-2-1-1, with the team that lost game 1 going second (and getting 3 bans). This will leave 5 free champions remaining. Both teams will consist of these champions (mirror match).
Game 3: ARAM!
I'd like to use more than the free champs, but not everyone has everything, and keeping lists of who you can legally ban/force the other team to use based on who has what is too much of a hassle.
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On October 26 2010 08:23 Jaksiel wrote:
Yeah, I don't agree with the blanket statement that Flash rewards poor play (aka being out of position). If you know you have Flash available, I would argue that being "out of position" isn't poor play, it's just taking advantage of the abilities available to you. And if you're out of position all the time, well, one Flash every few minutes isn't going to save you.
Well, yeah, it is.
Actually.
It's going to save you once every few minutes, that's the point. It adds up.
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Responding to the Trynd discussion:
(approx 2700 gold) Ghostblade: 30 AD, 15% crit chance, 20 ArPen, 15% cdr (Active: 20% move speed, 50% attack speed for 4 (probably 8) seconds)
(approx 2400 gold) Two Zeals : 40% AS, 20% crit chance 16% move speed (this is assuming that all percentage stats are based off of your base movespeed/attack speed, I'm not actually sure how they function in-game)
By this comparison, ghostblade completely blows two zeals out of the water. for an extra 300 gold you get essentially 30 AD, 20 armor pen,15% cdr, 4% more movespeed and 5% less crit chance when your active is going. Realistically if you aren't going to kill someone in 8 seconds you probably won't kill them at all in League of Legends... Chasing someone for more than 8 seconds against a competent team = lose.
I've started playing Trynd a bit (on my smurf I have quite a bit of games played), and honestly ghostblade into IE is way better than zeal into IE imo. Also, I really wouldn't jungle with Trynd, he needs farm to be effective, and jungling doesn't really give you too much farm compared to a solo lane.
This is what I do with Trynd:
23 - 6 - 1 masteries, taking cleanse and ghost as summoners
ArPen reds/Quints, Armor yellows/ Magic Resist blues
start out doran shield and pot, build order is:
D-Shield
lvl1 boots into beserkers after ghostblade
Ghostblade (after ghostblade try to keep yourself green potted while teamfighting)
IE
some form of lifesteal (starks works)
Last Whisper
Guardian Angel
-Take a solo lane against a champion that you know will not shut me down. This is the most important aspect of playing Trynd. If you put yourself against someone who can just destroy you in lane, you might as well duo, and duoing with Trynd is a terrible idea. He needs to level up his bloodlust so he's half decent in lane, and duoing means he levels twice as slow and gets shit on twice as hard as in solo lane. Champions that shut Trynd down include pretty much any champion with a strong lvl 1 or a champ that is ranged dps and utilizes armor pen runes. Just use your best judgment on whether or not you think a champion will beat you (and don't just think you'll outplay them... If you want to get better at this game you cannot assume that the people you're playing against are terrible).
-Treat Trynd as an assassin type champion. He has great CC and damage reduction with W, and he most importantly, HE CAN GO THROUGH WALLS. Jump on their carry, and rape them. I dare say no champion can beat a farmed Trynd in a fight, period. This is an inside joke with people in my house, but we tend to agree that people that can go through walls have a huge advantage over those that can't (if flash gets removed the difference will be even more noticeable =/ )
-Ulting: Ulting too soon is WAY better than ulting too late... =) Think about the burst potential on their team and whether or not their burst champions have used their moves or not. If they haven't you can usually ult at lower life and get away with it. When first trying Trynd,
always ult early. Nothing is worse than getting blown up in a teamfight without ulting as Trynd.
-Critting: Use his passive. It is very, very good. While laning, if people use their moves on you (and you have a significant amount of bloodlust stacks), be aggressive at low life. At 1/3 life Trynd gets 33% crit chance, if their moves are down and all they can do is auto attack, it's likely you'll at least get 1 crit on them. One Trynd crit @ low life can be huge in helping you stay in the lane.
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:o
very interesting, i still wouldnt say to throw out duoing with trynd tho, depending on the partner. Some1 like sona/janna/taric with trynd is fantastic, simply because of how well these heroes can zone/babysit trynd during those early levels, and they typically dont steal too much from his farm down there.
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EPT
