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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On February 04 2010 15:42 Tooplark wrote: Zilean/Heimerdinger is a lane combo rivalled only by the likes of Gangplank/Yi or Soraka/Mundo. None of those even work together that well except MAYBE soraka/mundo. Try Blitz/Rammus for epic tower grab/taunts or anyone with any sort of stun + another character. 100% guaranteed to be better than Gang/Yi or Zilean/Heimer. | ||
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jtype
England2167 Posts
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3851 Posts
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Flicky
England2676 Posts
On February 04 2010 19:27 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: None of those even work together that well except MAYBE soraka/mundo. Try Blitz/Rammus for epic tower grab/taunts or anyone with any sort of stun + another character. 100% guaranteed to be better than Gang/Yi or Zilean/Heimer. Zilean/Heimer is incredibly annoying. Continuously getting him by rockets and time bombs and there's fuck all you can do about it. Gangplank/Yi is terrible though. Not sure how you'd have trouble there. | ||
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Dubsys
Australia122 Posts
if you ever feel like playing, add me. (right now would be fine too) user: stixr | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
I would love to get some practice games of 5v5 all teamliquid players just went 5-0-2 and my team's scores were 1-3-0, 0-5-5, 0-7-1, 3-1-2. I'm so tired of getting paired with these fucking awful players. The worst part is my elo is only going down from losing every game with these shitties and the matchmaker will just keep pairing me with worse and worse allies. It's an infuriating system. | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
On February 04 2010 14:37 -orb- wrote: Ah yeahh... haemonculus got kinda miffed when the two of u had 0-9-0 and 0-6-0 lol Yah sorry I usually don't rage that easily but that was frustrating T_T;; Anyway, for anyone on TL who hasn't added me, my summoner name is Rhavanna, and I'm awesome. Plz to premade with me kthx. | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
skeeeelz | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
Blitz and anything tends to be a brutal combo, particularly stuns, because Blitz is such a dominating hero when it comes to territorial control (and burst damage). Blitz + Alistair is probably the best combo I've seen, though. Especially if the Alist runs Ghost/Flash. And it's a combo that works all the way through the game. | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
On February 04 2010 23:58 -orb- wrote: Yeah when haemonculus decides to go sivir and solo mid it's almost like an auto win as long as no one blatantly feeds skeeeelz Damn skippy. I've got a question on armor/magic penetration mechanics. There's still a lot I don't understand about this game, lol. ANYWAY: So when I play Nasus or Sivir, I usually have my marks all maxed for armor penetration. This gives me like a flat 8 armor pen or so. How does this apply? Does that mean that I reduce my opponent's armor by 8 whenever I hit them? So if they had 100 armor, whenever I hit them it would act as if they had 92 armor? That's not much of a difference. Or is it a percentage thing? Do I simply ignore 8% of their armor? Early game it's nice if it's reduction, because when an early hero has 20 armor and I ignore basically half of it, the DPS increase is noticable. When I'm up against that damned Rammus and he has 400+ armor, subtracting 8 from that is just silly and wouldn't change anything. What if I have a last whisper? I penetrate 40% of my opponents armor. But I also have 8 armor penetration. How do those interact? Finally, whenever I play Sivir, I get a starks fervor. That reduces the armor of any nearby enemies. So if I have 8 armor penetration from runes, and -20 enemy armor from Starks, how would those interact? Basically, I wanna know if my armor pen runes are worth it, or if I should switch them out for raw damage or attack speed or something? All input is much appreciated! Thanks! | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
I'm not sure the order between flat penetration and % (as brought up before), but... As far as I know rune penetration is like Black Cleaver penetration, in that it's flat #-based. So yes, if they have 100 armor and you have 8 from runes they'll act like a 82 armor. Against a strong Rammus it's hard to shred his armor - as Last Whisper's going to give you your biggest chunk of armor removal. Combination of flat reduction is additive, I believe. So you'll remove -28 with an -8 + starks. Baikin tends to run armor pen runes (which I still think are -18 total), which makes a huge difference early game as people tend to have 20-50 armor in most laning phases, and removing almost-all-to-half adds a good 20% plus to his damage. After all, I think 50 armor is close to 30-40% damage reduction, while 100 is like 50-60%, so... Then he makes a Cleaver, and if someone has a Starks, you tend to see him 3-4 shot heroes that have less than 2000 hp. In other words, armor pen runes are very much worth it, provided you're building into it, or are trying to abuse early-game. Raw damage sucks, please don't use ^^ By the way, I'm not sure how related the mechanics for this are, but... If you run Fiddlesticks (-16 passive MR) and bring Abyssal and a Sorc (20% pen), what I seem to see happening is, if someone has 100 MR: 100-16(passive)-20(MR) -> 64, then a 20% against the MR. Now obviously the difference is both Fiddle and Abyssal are an aura, so they land prior to the penetration affecting the skill damage - this is pretty common sense. My guess is (and it's a pretty pessimistic one) is that flat armor penetration hits the target first, applying their effects, and then damage is calculated AFTERwards using % armor penetration. Which of course makes Last Whisper not-very-godly, but it also makes sense, as it'd be pretty imba with flat penetration otherwise. If they have 100 armor and you have Whisper + Cleaver you'd be dropping them to negatives, which is kinda ridiculous. | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
On February 05 2010 00:42 Southlight wrote: I thought Armor Pen runes are 2 each, for a total of 18 from Marks? [...](more awesome stuff)[...] Haha, yes. Sorry. It's early and I can't do math from school computers and I forgot how much and SHUTUP I HATE YOU! So I have 9x greater marks of armor pen, so however much that comes out to. So you think they basically reduce enemy armor by that amount? Awesome, ^.^; I especially like them for Nasus because Spirit Fire reduces their armor already, and during the laning phase I can always land one or two hits while they're fleeing from my purple haze of doom. So Spirit Fire + armorpen runes = awesome. Yay! | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
And I also think Wither reduces armor? I seem to remember thinking it was like Exhaust minus the blind. Edit again: I'd point out Starks, being an aura, would have priority in removing armor, for obvious reasons. As I suspect with other armor removal, Last Whisper diminishes Starks' effect to 60% of its full effect. If my math is right... @_@ | ||
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Brees
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
rhavanna, twinsendude, some others. its not always fun playing on inept now, so tryhard! | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
Zilean is filthy now - that (much needed) Time Bomb range buff makes him insane. The problem with him before was that his range sucked, so you couldn't really harass without being hit back, but I think now he outranges pretty much everything (I think his auto-attack is also higher range than everyone except Trist), and with his speed buff that makes him dominating in the laning phase >_< | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
On February 04 2010 19:27 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: None of those even work together that well except MAYBE soraka/mundo. Try Blitz/Rammus for epic tower grab/taunts or anyone with any sort of stun + another character. 100% guaranteed to be better than Gang/Yi or Zilean/Heimer. That was my point lol. Zilean's abilities don't really help Heimer very much, and vice versa. Soraka/Mundo is... not bad, but Mundo is probably the worst lane partner for Soraka. I was rolling last night as Mundo. I used to hate Teemo, but now that I pack cleanse I can usually kill him as soon as I hit lv.3. | ||
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Yiruru
Canada690 Posts
It's Armor/MR Reduction -> % Penetration -> Penetration | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On February 05 2010 01:42 Tooplark wrote: That was my point lol. Zilean's abilities don't really help Heimer very much, and vice versa. I disagree. Zilean + Heimer can nuke people out of the lane pretty quickly, and with the extreme burst damage potential, Zilean can speed up -> snare, and with the snare it becomes much easier for Heimer to land a stunshot with his grenade, if he even needs to, because double bomb + rocket + grenade is a tremendous amount of damage. Also if you know you're going to be laning together, one of them can get Mana Manipulator, as both heroes can use Soul Shroud anyways (probably the Zil, so the Heimer can focus on AP earlier). Couple that with the fact that both of them have crazy range (though Heimer's range got nerfed), and at level 6 they get a Guardian Angel... It's not a sexy skill-chain lane but the sheer burst damage output with range at early-mid game is unparalleled in the game. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On February 05 2010 02:37 Yiruru wrote: Your armor formulas are wrong. It's Armor/MR Reduction -> % Penetration -> Penetration ? Wait, how does the flat penetration work, then... I always thought it was the same as reduction? Found off LoL forums: Trying to clarify things here with a base example of someone with 185 armor. 185 - 85 (The Black Cleaver + Stark's Fervor) = 100 100 - 40 (Last Whisper) = 60 60 - 40 (25 armor penetration from runes and The Brutalizer) = 20 Is that roughly how it works? If so, I'm thinking that you can skip The Black Cleaver and Stark's Fervor entirely unless you specifically need Stark's aura. 185 - 74 (Last Whisper) = 111 111 - 40 (25 armor penetration from runes and The Brutalizer) = 71 Not bad considering you saved over 5k gold for a difference of 51 armor. Instead, you can use that money to get something like Infinity Edge and/or The Bloodthirster. Okay so flat penetration works godly with Last Whisper, whereas reduc doesn't. That's very, very interesting to know, as I didn't realize the runes/brutalize penetration trumped reduc when in conjunction with Whisper... O_O | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
1. Spear throw is good for early harass. Getting the mana regen amulet + 2 health potions lets you harass like crazy vs. melee opponents early. 2. His ult mostly blows. It's funny when it works, but the whole "here's a big green circle showing where you shouldn't be in 2 seconds" coupled with the 6 second channeling time make it pretty useless aside from being a teleport. 3. His passive is neato and lets you tower dive more than you usually can (chase after 4 attacks, block first tower shot, shield bash, block second tower shot) 4. Shield bash is OK, but coupling it with heartseeker strike usually doesn't work out very well as opponents can get a decent headstart after the stun wears off. Also, 1 second stun isn't enough. 5. Heartseeker is pretty forgettable. The passive is nice to have for last hitting and fighting tougher neutral creeps, but I've found the active ability to be too clunky to merit putting points into this skill after the first. It's nice enough for dealing AoE to creeps, but you don't need the extra damage vs. creep waves. 6. Late game, Pantheon just feels too damn squishy to me and I feel like his damage output isn't even on par with Jax or Yi, so it seems to me that he's just a bad melee dps. The blocking passive helps, but it's not enough to merit the dropoff in offensive output IMO. Anyone have suggestions for a pantheon item build? I only had a couple games with him, so I was doing sorta generic stuff like: meki pendant (I went to philosopher's stone one game for gold and skipped malady for last whisper, but late game you need life steal anyway so I'm sorta up in the air on this one...) boots of swiftness/mercury treads malady black cleaver phage -> frozen mallet (trying to get some survivability) so I feel like part of my perception of him as a mediocre dps might have something to do with having a mediocre item build... | ||
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