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On April 10 2010 02:18 Southlight wrote:
And when I play with a Sivir that rushes Chalice the lack of survivability/damage comes to haunt us at the level 8-10 teamfight when she doesn't actually do anything, except use her ult, boomerang once, and then run away.
I'm not sure why you consider this bad. If your Sivir is solo mid she'll be at the high end of the level range, which means max BB. If you time it right, throwing a single max BB into a teamfight can be a huge swing. Her ult is also pretty important, depending on team composition (both for adding DPS and helping wounded chars escape). I also find an early teamfight also involves two BB, not one.
On the other hand...what would you suggest? If that 900 is spent on something else, she might have a little more HP/damage, but her range is so low she can't teamfight using her autoattack (this becomes less true with bloodthirster, last whisper, and ricochet, but you have none of those at L9-10). Plus, without chalice, she can't lane as hard -> less xp/cash. Doubly true if you don't lead meki (which I'm guessing you wouldn't).
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If a team I'm on sends Sivir solo mid we'll end up with like a level 10 Trist/Nid/Ez/Ashe and a level 5 Sivir, no joke. After about 10 straight games with a solo Sivir on my team quad/penta-queue I've developed an intense hatred of Sivirs-on-my-team, after that range nerf. Rawr.
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Can anyone suggest a good build for Kennen ? An generally speaking how should Kennen be played ? He's squishy and doesn't do much damage in the mid/lategame.
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On April 08 2010 11:20 Brees wrote:
kennen is absurdly good but requires a lot of finesse to play. Think Nidalee + TF combo. great mobility, stuns, close range combos (nidalee), benefits greatly from atk speed (TF), and makes a good ranged carry with autoattack. I think many people will build kennen AP and fail hard. I will be going mallet/rageblade/last whisper something like that. E ---> W early to farm like crazy. 1 point in Q and ignore it. only good for the mark it adds.
Is Brees' take. Personally I've not really seen a Kennen take over a game yet, one way or other. He's always seemed a bit invisible so far. Largely because he's so new that no one really knows how to play him yet.
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From what I can tell, he's a post-initiation mass stunner. I think the idea with him is to wait in teamfights for your tank to initiate and get some disables going on, then you burst in there with your ball lightning shit, then you activate the thing that puts another lightning mark on everyone and then you activate your ult and stun like 2 or 3 of them. I have no idea how to build, but I think you're supposed to just do what you can with AP items where you aren't wasting money on anything mana related (I think Rylai's is probably the first big item you should get, after like, I dunno, Mejais and sorc boots or something). Haven't had a chance to play him yet, but I played vs. one decent one and he was doing something along those lines.
EDIT: I just don't see how Kennen's abilities work out with something along Brees's lines. It just seems like the only auto-attack related ability he has is pretty forgettable (extra damage and a mark every 5 attacks just sounds like a shitty version of TF's passive that you can then spend all your energy and skills on turning into a stun... ok, why not just use TF and trigger your passive more frequently and pick gold cards instead?). I dunno, maybe I'm missing something.
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Well, the tough thing I found with Kennen is that while Q is great for harassing/etc, at most you can only place one Mark with it on one character, and it's a skillshot so you HAVE to land it. R only applies marks at random, so it's unreliable. That means you rely on E for marking as many people as you can, then W to apply a second mark (it only affects people that already have a mark on them). The difficult thing then is to apply one or two marks on as many people as possible with Q E R, and then finish with W, and either hope you have 2 marks at W or your ult applies a 3rd mark (but it's random).
Rylai sounds good. Seishi mentioned to me yesterday that you should be building Hybrid, so I was thinking more like Brees' Rageblade idea.
Edit:
It's because you use all your skills to mass stun ONCE... for a grand total of one second (ish). nd your mass stun hardly does any damage. So you can either be an invisible stun, or you can do damage, which would require actual, like, autoattack damage, lol.
The problem is that unfortunately none of his skills really give him damage output, but stunning won't accomplish much either - you're better off attempting to do that with Amumu or some shit, who'll do it easier, have actual tanking power, has a stun that lasts longer, and does more innate damage. Thus Kennen, despite his "mass stun" potential, is actually better as a single-target stun-and-kill, which would require damage output, and not via AP.
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On April 10 2010 02:37 Mogwai wrote:
From what I can tell, he's a post-initiation mass stunner. I think the idea with him is to wait in teamfights for your tank to initiate and get some disables going on, then you burst in there with your ball lightning shit, then you activate the thing that puts another lightning mark on everyone and then you activate your ult and stun like 2 or 3 of them. I have no idea how to build, but I think you're supposed to just do what you can with AP items where you aren't wasting money on anything mana related (I think Rylai's is probably the first big item you should get, after like, I dunno, Mejais and sorc boots or something). Haven't had a chance to play him yet, but I played vs. one decent one and he was doing something along those lines.
EDIT: I just don't see how Kennen's abilities work out with something along Brees's lines. It just seems like the only auto-attack related ability he has is pretty forgettable (extra damage and a mark every 5 attacks just sounds like a shitty version of TF's passive that you can then spend all your energy and skills on turning into a stun... ok, why not just use TF and trigger your passive more frequently and pick gold cards instead?). I dunno, maybe I'm missing something.
This sounds about right, but I don't get the AP emphasis. Why not go AD, or at least tank items, so after your disables you can do something useful? The strength of his skills is the stun, not the damage...
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I dunno, I really haven't had time to check out his AP ratios and shit, but again, I just don't see what about him scales well with autoattack...
EDIT: ok, so I see now that his passive triggers scale with AD, interesting... well, now I just have no idea, he seems like such a hodgepodge of things that aren't terribly well related and don't ultimately do much. I guess I just need to play him and figure stuff out.
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On April 10 2010 02:26 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 02:18 Southlight wrote:
And when I play with a Sivir that rushes Chalice the lack of survivability/damage comes to haunt us at the level 8-10 teamfight when she doesn't actually do anything, except use her ult, boomerang once, and then run away. I'm not sure why you consider this bad. If your Sivir is solo mid she'll be at the high end of the level range, which means max BB. If you time it right, throwing a single max BB into a teamfight can be a huge swing. Her ult is also pretty important, depending on team composition (both for adding DPS and helping wounded chars escape). I also find an early teamfight also involves two BB, not one. On the other hand...what would you suggest? If that 900 is spent on something else, she might have a little more HP/damage, but her range is so low she can't teamfight using her autoattack (this becomes less true with bloodthirster, last whisper, and ricochet, but you have none of those at L9-10). Plus, without chalice, she can't lane as hard -> less xp/cash. Doubly true if you don't lead meki (which I'm guessing you wouldn't). sivir going meki first just dies during early laning. seriously her low level boomerang hits like a wet paper towel. i've mentioned this before but sivir SUCKS solo mid. she has no CC, no real burst, has a super dodgeable harass, and her auto attack sucks early 1v1. and she's not true carry so sending her mid is sort of a waste but sending her to the sides is even worse because her laning partners just gold starve.
aka sivir sucks.
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His autoattack doesn't scale well, it's just a matter of doing SOMEthing useful. His closest parallel IMO is Ashe. Both of them are great at disabling, usually a single target - both have a skill that has the possibility of irritating a glob of enemies but it's not something you can rely on.
Q - mark on one person <-- skillshot
W - mark and damage on everyone who already has a mark, passive is to add 40% of your attack damage to an attack every 5 times?
E - mark on everyone you walk through <-- with no durability this is tough to pull off
R - mark on random people near you every 0.5 seconds up to X times (X based on ult level, starts at 6, dun remember 11/16), up to 3 times per person
passive - stuns everyone with 3 marks
This means realistically you cannot rely on your skills to stun multiple people, as you would not only have to be in extreme proximity to them, but you simply don't have enough marks to go around to apply 3 to multiple people. What you're more likely to see happen is you Q someone, R, then W to stun, then R will apply two more marks (hopefully), at which point you can either Q or E them again. In the meantime you have to be doing SOMEthing, and that SOMEthing is hopefully damaging, which is more easily accomplished by getting damage and/or attackspeed.
Seishi said he saw a lot of hybrid getting a bit of AP and stacking attack speed - basically what you remarked early on.
Edit:
hear hear, redtooth o/
Edit2:
During laning phase I saw my lane partner just spam Q W Q W Q W to harass enemies. There were no stuns, obviously because he simply did not have a means of applying a third mark. Unless he got back to Q before the two marks wore off. He's an interesting hero, and I think he's cool, but going AP is kinda stupid on him 
Edit3:
Incidentally he, like Nidalee, is able to maintain 8 stacks on Rageblade for free, as Q recharges in like 3 seconds, and is, of course, free.
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I should play with you guys this weekend to convince you that Sivir can solo mid and hard carry =[
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Can you still do it, even after the range nerf? She was already wrecked by Ashe/Nid/Ez before the range nerf, and now I feel like the amount of wreckage laid by those three as well as the addition of numerous heroes that can overwhelm her has destroyed her solo viability o_O
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has anybody seen kennen built like the old new TF? like when TF was JUST remade people were going nashors, grb, and triforce on him. i guess he has no steroid skill so it might be a bit odd to go AS+AP but that passive stun (the one that adds marks with auto attack) might be awesome with 2.5 aspd.
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On April 10 2010 02:58 Yiruru wrote:
I should play with you guys this weekend to convince you that Sivir can solo mid and hard carry =[ well i'm sure you can solo mid and hard dps carry with fucking alistar if you wanted to. that's not really a fair matchup lol.
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Wait, so does this mean that Sivir fell from godlike to "don't use her"? Wow, i should totally give more time to LoL instead of playing SC2 most of the time
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I dunno if it's Nashors but Seishi (top 300-500 player) remarked most people were going something like GRB LW for attack speed. The new Nashor might be good; dunno if it's worth the cost, especially considering you'd be wasting its mana regen though :d
Edit:
On April 10 2010 03:02 Kaniol wrote:
Wait, so does this mean that Sivir fell from godlike to "don't use her"? Wow, i should totally give more time to LoL instead of playing SC2 most of the time
She's definitely a lot more tricky to use. I've seen one person destroy us with Sivir even after the nerf solo mid, but our Ashe that game happened to suck and not know that he can beat Sivir, so it's hard to gauge whether that was more an inept Ashe or a good Sivir. Penta-queued with a Sivir though, we'd always run into a Trist/Ashe/TF/Ez that would simply stand there in front of the creep and prevent Sivir from getting any exp.
Yiruru is good enough that he might be able to pull it off. Like redtooth said, he probably could do that whatever the fuck he wants though LOL. I don't know if she's a "don't use her" sort of tier but her laning presence is pretty much gone.
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ok maybe not nashors (in hindsight the mana regen is pretty stupid) and but AS+AP hybrid. GRB+LW makes sense. maybe madreds? i've seen some games with kennen and he seems really useless as of now.
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Well people just don't know how to play him; he's tricky, and it's tempting to play him as a mass stunner. Like Brees said, he requires finesse. You have to be able to count marks, as well as your own attack counter, and his ult's randomness kinda bites when trying to set up a stun-on-call.
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I've never really had problems soloing with Sivir against the usual solo heroes. If you're getting pressured, the general trick is to just stay in exp range, and neutral between waves. If they play aggressive, the lane pushes naturally and it makes them far more vulnerable to Boomerang.
I do agree however, that laning with someone like Alistar generally gives players much easier farm, no matter how bad they are. For my playstyle, I sometimes do feel soloing mid is wasted, since I almost always hit 18 before anyone else on my team even when I start in a duo lane.
The goal of soloing is to keep your opponent in the lane, outfarm them by creeping neutrals between waves, and accessing Golem/Lizard early on.
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I think his point was that you could take Alistar solo mid and wreck people :D
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EPT
