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Torchlight II - Page 34

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TeamLiquid Steam Group for Torchlight 2
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 02:45:39
September 21 2012 01:54 GMT
#661
On September 21 2012 10:42 TheYango wrote:
So I did some mathcrafting on Embermage DPS (Embermage is the easiest because their damage will be 100% elemental so you can accurately assess the value of Focus % elemental damage vs. Strength's % weapon damage, and you don't get fumbles/executes). Drew some interesting conclusions, but I would like someone to check my math as well.

The basic formula:
DPS = base damage * (1+0.005*str)*(1+0.005*focus)*(1+0.005*str*0.005*(T-str-focus))
where
T = total of str + focus + dex
constrained by: str > 0, focus > 0, T >= str + focus

Not having any more advanced mathematical software installed at the moment on this computer, I used Wolfram Alpha to generate plots of DPS in relation to str and focus, for varying values of T.

For T = 100 - We notice that the constraint T >= str + focus runs pretty much along one of the contour lines. This suggests that at low levels, your DPS will be roughly similar regardless of how you split your str/focus. That is, lower levels are inherently forgiving to mis-assigning points to the two DPS stats, because your DPS does not vary significantly so long as you are assigning points to either. As expected, Dex does not matter that much at low DPS values.

For T = 200 - Here we start to see some variation in DPS based on how you assigned strength in comparison to focus. The optimum is still on the constraint T >= str + focus (which you have to imagine because I didn't plot it), but the value is very close to an even split between str and focus, and the extremes are noticeably worse.

For T = 300 - Around 300 total stats, we start to see Dexterity become significant--the optimum is not on the edge of the constraint anymore. We can roughly approximate the point of optimum DPS to around ~75 Focus, 175 Strength, 50 Dex. We note that just as Dex is starting to become important, the usefulness of Strength is starting to outpace Focus (because Strength gives Crit damage, while Execute chance is a useless stat for Embermages because their spells dont Execute).

For T = 400 - The usefulness of Focus starts to level out. Strength continues to be the most important stat, and Dex is picking up a bit. The split here seems to be about 75 Focus, 75 Dex, 250 Str.

At this point it starts to get a bit dodgy because I'm not sure how the stat caps work out (Dex obviously caps at 200, because that gives you 100% crit and 100% dodge). If we assume stats cap at 200, then the above graph should look closer to a split of 100 Dex, 100 Focus, 200 Strength.

This would suggest the following leveling strategy for Embermage offensive stats (note that you probably have to take some appropriate amount of Vitality as well, but I haven't factored that in):
- Level Strength and Focus evenly until they are both at 100 (this means your first few level ups will probably be used to boost Strength to the same level as your Focus)
- At ~100 Focus, stop leveling Focus. Prioritize Strength while pumping a little bit of Dex so that you hit 150 Str/50 Dex
- Level Strength and Dex evenly at this point, so that you hit 100 Dex and 200 Strength at this point. If Strength caps at 200, boost up your Focus and Dex toward the cap of 200. If there is no cap, then focus further on Strength, and pull up your Dex and Focus as you can.

I've done similar calculations for effective HP on the engineer.

You can reduce this to a 1D optimization problem. You can only put a max of 500 skill points into a stat and that requires level 93 (according to Torchlight Armory). Hence you can set str = x, and focus = 500 - x, sub this into your DPS formula and then vary x between 0 and 500 to see what maximizes DPS.

Also things like crit, dodge etc do not increase linearly, but you can fit a perfect quadratic curve to it: http://torchlight2armory.com/skill-calc?i=2
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 01:56:25
September 21 2012 01:55 GMT
#662
Caphe
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Vietnam10817 Posts
September 21 2012 02:07 GMT
#663
Yango, you are awesome with this kind of stuff, I'd love to verify your math but I want to progress in the game :D. I rolled an Embermage myself. I was putting points in Focus and Vit only(4 focs + 1Vit), will try your stuff out and report back!
Terran
EchelonTee
Profile Joined February 2011
United States5256 Posts
September 21 2012 02:21 GMT
#664
On September 21 2012 10:42 TheYango wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
So I did some mathcrafting on Embermage DPS (Embermage is the easiest because their damage will be 100% elemental so you can accurately assess the value of Focus % elemental damage vs. Strength's % weapon damage, and you don't get fumbles/executes). Drew some interesting conclusions, but I would like someone to check my math as well.

The basic formula:
DPS = base damage * (1+0.005*str)*(1+0.005*focus)*(1+0.005*str*0.005*(T-str-focus))
where
T = total of str + focus + dex
constrained by: str > 0, focus > 0, T >= str + focus

Not having any more advanced mathematical software installed at the moment on this computer, I used Wolfram Alpha to generate plots of DPS in relation to str and focus, for varying values of T.

For T = 100 - We notice that the constraint T >= str + focus runs pretty much along one of the contour lines. This suggests that at low levels, your DPS will be roughly similar regardless of how you split your str/focus. That is, lower levels are inherently forgiving to mis-assigning points to the two DPS stats, because your DPS does not vary significantly so long as you are assigning points to either. As expected, Dex does not matter that much at low DPS values.

For T = 200 - Here we start to see some variation in DPS based on how you assigned strength in comparison to focus. The optimum is still on the constraint T >= str + focus (which you have to imagine because I didn't plot it), but the value is very close to an even split between str and focus, and the extremes are noticeably worse.

For T = 300 - Around 300 total stats, we start to see Dexterity become significant--the optimum is not on the edge of the constraint anymore. We can roughly approximate the point of optimum DPS to around ~75 Focus, 175 Strength, 50 Dex. We note that just as Dex is starting to become important, the usefulness of Strength is starting to outpace Focus (because Strength gives Crit damage, while Execute chance is a useless stat for Embermages because their spells dont Execute).

For T = 400 - The usefulness of Focus starts to level out. Strength continues to be the most important stat, and Dex is picking up a bit. The split here seems to be about 75 Focus, 75 Dex, 250 Str.

At this point it starts to get a bit dodgy because I'm not sure how the stat caps work out (Dex obviously caps at 200, because that gives you 100% crit and 100% dodge). If we assume stats cap at 200, then the above graph should look closer to a split of 100 Dex, 100 Focus, 200 Strength.

This would suggest the following leveling strategy for Embermage offensive stats (note that you probably have to take some appropriate amount of Vitality as well, but I haven't factored that in):
- Level Strength and Focus evenly until they are both at 100 (this means your first few level ups will probably be used to boost Strength to the same level as your Focus)
- At ~100 Focus, stop leveling Focus. Prioritize Strength while pumping a little bit of Dex so that you hit 150 Str/50 Dex
- Level Strength and Dex evenly at this point, so that you hit 100 Dex and 200 Strength at this point. If Strength caps at 200, boost up your Focus and Dex toward the cap of 200. If there is no cap, then focus further on Strength, and pull up your Dex and Focus as you can.

That's very very intriguing... completely throws out what I was thinking about how stats worked, based off of my limited TL1 experience. I wonder if this extends to other classes similarly; if utilizing spell damage, is some even leveling of dex/str/focus needed? I interpreted the spell descriptions for classes like Zerker and Engineer as meaning that you could copmletely forgo Focus, but now I'm not sure.
aka "neophyte". learn lots. dont judge. laugh for no reason. be nice. seek happiness. -D[9]
Pufftrees
Profile Joined March 2009
2449 Posts
September 21 2012 02:22 GMT
#665
Just starting, gunslinging/magic wielding Outlander is the class I chose.

All I can say is good music so far! Come check it out if you like.

http://www.twitch.tv/pufftrees
Chance favors the prepared mind.
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
September 21 2012 02:36 GMT
#666
Totally can't log in right now, but holy shit is the log-in music straight from Diablo 2? I'm not complaining or anything, I fucking love it.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 02:44:51
September 21 2012 02:39 GMT
#667
edit: nm
Moderator
DaCruise
Profile Joined July 2010
Denmark2457 Posts
September 21 2012 02:43 GMT
#668
Love it so far. Just reached act 2 and its bed time for me now. My only real complaint so far are the cheap cinematics that an amateur with a few days off could easily triumf.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
September 21 2012 02:44 GMT
#669
On September 21 2012 10:54 paralleluniverse wrote:
x
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 10:42 TheYango wrote:
So I did some mathcrafting on Embermage DPS (Embermage is the easiest because their damage will be 100% elemental so you can accurately assess the value of Focus % elemental damage vs. Strength's % weapon damage, and you don't get fumbles/executes). Drew some interesting conclusions, but I would like someone to check my math as well.

The basic formula:
DPS = base damage * (1+0.005*str)*(1+0.005*focus)*(1+0.005*str*0.005*(T-str-focus))
where
T = total of str + focus + dex
constrained by: str > 0, focus > 0, T >= str + focus

Not having any more advanced mathematical software installed at the moment on this computer, I used Wolfram Alpha to generate plots of DPS in relation to str and focus, for varying values of T.

For T = 100 - We notice that the constraint T >= str + focus runs pretty much along one of the contour lines. This suggests that at low levels, your DPS will be roughly similar regardless of how you split your str/focus. That is, lower levels are inherently forgiving to mis-assigning points to the two DPS stats, because your DPS does not vary significantly so long as you are assigning points to either. As expected, Dex does not matter that much at low DPS values.

For T = 200 - Here we start to see some variation in DPS based on how you assigned strength in comparison to focus. The optimum is still on the constraint T >= str + focus (which you have to imagine because I didn't plot it), but the value is very close to an even split between str and focus, and the extremes are noticeably worse.

For T = 300 - Around 300 total stats, we start to see Dexterity become significant--the optimum is not on the edge of the constraint anymore. We can roughly approximate the point of optimum DPS to around ~75 Focus, 175 Strength, 50 Dex. We note that just as Dex is starting to become important, the usefulness of Strength is starting to outpace Focus (because Strength gives Crit damage, while Execute chance is a useless stat for Embermages because their spells dont Execute).

For T = 400 - The usefulness of Focus starts to level out. Strength continues to be the most important stat, and Dex is picking up a bit. The split here seems to be about 75 Focus, 75 Dex, 250 Str.

At this point it starts to get a bit dodgy because I'm not sure how the stat caps work out (Dex obviously caps at 200, because that gives you 100% crit and 100% dodge). If we assume stats cap at 200, then the above graph should look closer to a split of 100 Dex, 100 Focus, 200 Strength.

This would suggest the following leveling strategy for Embermage offensive stats (note that you probably have to take some appropriate amount of Vitality as well, but I haven't factored that in):
- Level Strength and Focus evenly until they are both at 100 (this means your first few level ups will probably be used to boost Strength to the same level as your Focus)
- At ~100 Focus, stop leveling Focus. Prioritize Strength while pumping a little bit of Dex so that you hit 150 Str/50 Dex
- Level Strength and Dex evenly at this point, so that you hit 100 Dex and 200 Strength at this point. If Strength caps at 200, boost up your Focus and Dex toward the cap of 200. If there is no cap, then focus further on Strength, and pull up your Dex and Focus as you can.

I've done similar calculations for effective HP on the engineer.

You can reduce this to a 1D optimization problem. You can only put a max of 500 skill points into a stat and that requires level 93 (according to Torchlight Armory). Hence you can set str = x, and focus = 500 - x, sub this into your DPS formula and then vary x between 0 and 500 to see what maximizes DPS.

Also things like crit, dodge etc do not increase linearly, but you can fit a perfect quadratic curve to it: http://torchlight2armory.com/skill-calc?i=2

Ok, so basically Dex is way worse than I thought it was.

I think I'm just going to split Str/Focus evenly, favoring Strength once I start finding % crit items. Dex doesn't feel worth it as a DPS stat.
Moderator
Silidons
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2813 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 02:50:04
September 21 2012 02:45 GMT
#670
this game....is downright awesome. this is worth $60 imo

i'm a zerker, lv 14 right now playing elite mode. just killed general grell or whatever, but i love the skills.

i'm doing a 3str/2vit per lvl, and i'm using stormclaw with autoattacks as my main DPS, and it annihilates. using wolfshade as well for the healing. it's very fun.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon Bonaparte
RuskiPanda
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2906 Posts
September 21 2012 02:45 GMT
#671
Engineer with Blast Cannon+ Fire and Spark passive maxing Strength makes elite mode seem like a joke tbh. As long as your cannon weapon remains relatively up to your current level I've had no trouble with any boss/area so far. Maxing heal bot for utility means at worst you just have to pot spam in sticky situations but at level 22 I've only wiped 5 times (and all to being lazy about using a potion xD). Maybe it will change in higher levels when my neglect of Vitality will catch up with me but it seems doubtful so far.
eluv
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1251 Posts
September 21 2012 02:57 GMT
#672
On September 21 2012 11:36 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
Totally can't log in right now, but holy shit is the log-in music straight from Diablo 2? I'm not complaining or anything, I fucking love it.


Matt Uelman, D2 Composer, also did the TL 2 score - and what I learned is that he can write about 5 very, very good songs, but that's about it. Not complaining, those songs are awesome, but if you compare the soundtracks, they might as well have just used the same score.
"Yes I fucked my way to the GSL partnership" - Sundance
Infernal_dream
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2359 Posts
September 21 2012 03:01 GMT
#673
On September 21 2012 11:57 eluv wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 11:36 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
Totally can't log in right now, but holy shit is the log-in music straight from Diablo 2? I'm not complaining or anything, I fucking love it.


Matt Uelman, D2 Composer, also did the TL 2 score - and what I learned is that he can write about 5 very, very good songs, but that's about it. Not complaining, those songs are awesome, but if you compare the soundtracks, they might as well have just used the same score.


I noticed the same thing. Sounded almost exactly alike with a few notes here and there changed.
epik640x
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1134 Posts
September 21 2012 03:14 GMT
#674
On September 21 2012 12:01 Infernal_dream wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 11:57 eluv wrote:
On September 21 2012 11:36 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
Totally can't log in right now, but holy shit is the log-in music straight from Diablo 2? I'm not complaining or anything, I fucking love it.


Matt Uelman, D2 Composer, also did the TL 2 score - and what I learned is that he can write about 5 very, very good songs, but that's about it. Not complaining, those songs are awesome, but if you compare the soundtracks, they might as well have just used the same score.


I noticed the same thing. Sounded almost exactly alike with a few notes here and there changed.


An evolution rather than a revolution. I'll allow it.

Hey, anyone got an effective stat writeup for the outlander?
Rotodyne
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United States2263 Posts
September 21 2012 03:20 GMT
#675
Played for five hours today, very fun. Using Berserker in veteran and trying to use a lot of skills and items that get me life steal and regen. Like everyone else said, way better than that other game that we don't talk about anymore
I can only play starcraft when I am shit canned. IPXZERG is a god.
GreyMasta
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada197 Posts
September 21 2012 03:40 GMT
#676
Playing Elite as a Berserker.

To survive through the 2nd floor of the 1st dungeon I already had to resort to some nasty Hit and Run tactics in order to fill the Charge gauge and go berserk to lifesteal/ kill them like crazy during those precious 5-6 seconds of Critical hits fest. That was intense. :D

I recommend playing it at above than normal difficulties, definitely more fun and tactical.
Caphe
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Vietnam10817 Posts
September 21 2012 03:46 GMT
#677
Are you able to trade items once you are playing on Internet?
Terran
Silidons
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2813 Posts
September 21 2012 03:47 GMT
#678
jesus the archers in emberscratch mines rape face - melee classes beware on elite
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon Bonaparte
village_idiot
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
2436 Posts
September 21 2012 03:50 GMT
#679
Seems like you can't play as a summoner in this game. Too bad.
Silidons
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2813 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 04:12:49
September 21 2012 04:05 GMT
#680
jesus christ i think i'm underleveled lol - i'm getting item drops from this place that are lv 23 and i'm 16 >.>

king pogg dead lol...strategy = run in, eviscerate, run the fuck away. rinse repeat.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon Bonaparte
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