EPTTouhou Discussion Thread - Page 300
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
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Rizare
Canada592 Posts
Seriously, I just found out about Foreground Eclipse few days ago. Beside the scream itself, I like them. Credits to those from osu for the discovery. + Show Spoiler [I Bet You'll Forget That Even If…] + + Show Spoiler [Flames Within These Black Feathers (wi…] + Like the others too, but I'll stop here for now. I had an occasion to buy physical copies of Demetori at an anime con, but they were too expensive  | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10346 Posts
On September 03 2014 08:59 Rizare wrote: Thread active again? Why not? Seriously, I just found out about Foreground Eclipse few days ago. Beside the scream itself, I like them. Credits to those from osu for the discovery. + Show Spoiler [I Bet You'll Forget That Even If…] + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4tCFee8esk + Show Spoiler [Flames Within These Black Feathers (wi…] + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASmN8x6sPjc Like the others too, but I'll stop here for now. I had an occasion to buy physical copies of Demetori at an anime con, but they were too expensive The first one sounds really familiar, maybe I heard it before? Is there a PV for this or something? Or maybe it just sounds similar to some jpop song. | ||
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Anopob
Canada39 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10346 Posts
I think i remember pointing out i liked that one | ||
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Reaper9
United States1724 Posts
Undead corp being hella awesome as usual! + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Reaper9
United States1724 Posts
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JSH
United States4109 Posts
YEAHHHHH Another one if you enjoyed it :3 + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10346 Posts
@Caller Do you remember any info about that one sakuya arrange I really liked? It was light and funny and it told a story and it was about cake or something. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10346 Posts
A NEW TOUHOU ANIME is being made and supposed to release THIS NOVEMBER SET YOUR EXPECTATIONS HIGH Like, close to memories of phantasm or even better possibly. This one is made by chinese fans but looks great! http://kyotofantasytroupe.net/ You can find some background art (very detailed), some character design sheets, some key animations, and also a 37 second PV. The animation looks ambitious! Having high expectations. Waiting warmly now ~ | ||
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JSH
United States4109 Posts
That's pretty cool Also ded threat = ded thread Yoshi you should come join IRC | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10346 Posts
Foreword Although many were afraid Blizzard may have been too quick to act in hitting hellbats with the nerf hammer, hellbat drops made a quick return thanks to Sound and have been gaining much increased popularity as exploration with hellbat drops continue to prove extremely rewarding. While hellbat drop openings are still not the most standard, many strong, innovative Terrans like Lucifron, Bunny, ForGG, and Flash frequently showcase the power of the not-fully-figured-out hellbat drops and reveal the countless advantages hellbat drops have over MM drops, with players like Bunny sticking to hellbat drops in TvT almost stubbornly while players like Thorzain dabble with hellbat drops in TvP. Seven truths of hellbat drops are that they are hard to scout, require elaborate defenses simply to survive against, are everything with medivacs and nothing without, make the poor poorer, destroy MM drops, profitable for patient, persistent players, and are still being explored. TL Strategy Presents Presented to you is an overview of the ever increasingly popular hellbat drops, not only highlighting a range of openings and documenting games from the past month, but also observing specific uses, strengths, and weaknesses of hellbat drops in varying situations. This overview's goal is to increase the reading player or spectator's knowledge of hellbat drops and thus enhance the reader's understanding and/or appreciation of hellbat drops by sharing the successes and failures of hellbat drops -- ever since their return in popularity following the hellbat nerfs -- by examining their evolution through different players up to the current metagame. Hard to Scout http://www.gomtv.net/2013gstls1/vod/72094 Set 3 Sound vs Salvation Not many Terrans take advantage of the limited reliability of scans in TvT by spreading their buildings to different corners of their base, but that's what Sound did to Salvation. As a result, Salvation's scan lacked the necessary information for him to confirm what, if anything, was coming. In the dark, Salvation had to account for all possible threats and decide how much of his economic lead he should sacrifice for extra defenses. The SCV scout was denied by Sound's widow mines, right before two fresh hellbats pop out. While it is true that it's often hard to tell exactly what your opponent is doing early on in TvT, especially with a little building hiding, the one-base double hellbat drop benefited greatly from Salvation's unsuccessful scan because it countered the common, flexible, and relatively safe mix of marine/hellion that Terrans default to after a Reactor Marine Expand. Without being able to confirm what – if anything – was coming, deviating from his build by making more defenses “just in case” wasn't very appealing. Marking the re-introduction of hellbat drops openings and sparking a new wave of interest in them, this game remains a strong testament to not only the importance of hiding as much information as possible, but also the strength of using new or uncommon builds that force your opponent onto unfamiliar ground. Require Elaborate Defenses to Simply Survive Against + Show Spoiler + Lucifron vs Center A few days after news after news of Sound's build spread around, Lucifron won four consecutive games all with various hellbat drop builds, stopping one set short of all-killing Quantic in the Acer Teamstory Cup 2013. He plowed through Hyun, Apocolypse, Center, and Hyun again. Although his opponents were adapting after each defeat, it wasn't enough to stop him. Against Center, Lucifron was merciless to his opponents who, despite making large commitments to defense, received game ending punishment for small mistakes. Knowing Lucifron was using a one-base variant, Center was allowed to sacrifice economy for safety. To deny the hellbat drops their greatest strength – mobility -- he kept everything in his main. Without the defenses being spread over two bases, Lucifron wouldn't be able to hop between bases to outrun defenses. Instead of stubbornly sticking to the default marine/hellion, Center created a defense untargetable by hellbats; bunkered marines, widow mines, and vikings. Simultaneously, Center smartly accumulated a sizable army that could punish and contain Lucifron. When the drop was cleared and only two SCVs were lost, he knew his plan worked. But he thought wrong. ![[image loading]](http://i.minus.com/i9WFybFP7z9SX.png) Center found a way to fight the hellbat drops without losing units. Center made one tiny misjudgment that immediately set his foot in the grave. Center excitedly sprung out of defensive position, taking his natural, salvaging his bunker, and sending his widow mines on a drop, but was caught off guard by the next drop. Center, having exposed himself, allowed Lucifron to trade his hellbats for the army that he was so carefully building up. Even worse, Center lost over twenty workers in the chaos. ![[image loading]](http://i.minus.com/icfS0NWcfom6u.png) Even the observer had trouble keeping up, missing the death of fifteen stacked SCVs – whose last remains are the gray pile of burnt metal just to the left of the workers killed scoreboard. Everything with Medviacs, and Nothing Without + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPgDZoG2Jfk Center beautifully repelled the initial aggression but shortly fell apart. Although he was on the right track to stopping Lucifron's killing spree, his teammate Hyun unfortunately went for a different approach to defending the hellbat drops in the next game. Sadly, he didn't prioritize shutting down medivacs. After having being slaughtered in the first set with speedlings against hellbats wedged between mineral patches, Hyun chose roach tech in the fourth set. Although Hyun played much safer, investing more in tech and army -- specifically delaying his third and getting earlier gas for the meaty roaches – Hyun's new approach still failed to address the medivacs. Lucifron went for lighter aggression with single hellbat drops, but still allowing him to keep tabs on Hyun's army position, drone count, and tech. Meanwhile, the constant threat discouraged Hyun from attacking, which would not only mean he'd have less defense at home but also that he wouldn't be able pay as much attention to the deadly drops as he'd like. Regrettably, Hyun's defeat was carved from the start; his play neglected the ability of medivacs to load and unload hellbats to dodge roach projectiles or outright outrun them. He tried to pressure Lucifron with his roaches but that only made it easier for Lucifron. With only a single spore crawler until 13:00, the double medivac drops were too much, allowing Lucifron to match Hyun's worker count. His medivacs are able to roam almost freely, forcing defenses in one area only to load up and drop a different base instead. Lucifron's scouting via medivacs allowed him to avoid surprises. In this way, Lucifron was able to safely commit to a final attack. In the end, Lucifron showed how frequent hellbat drops are a very real threat if the medivacs are left untouched, a strong way to open with mech by gaining valuable scouting information, and a great gift for being able to end a game sooner with more confidence. Make the Poor Poorer http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_europe/c/2195508 Forge vs Bunny Lucifron's constant hellbat drops is not dissimilar to bio players' constant MM drops, but unlike the latter, hellbat can create annoying situations where neither player can stabalize after suffering economic damage. From the midgame onwards, both players kept up constant hellbat drops, keeping each other's economies low. With both of their armies out in the center, denying each other from taking more than the first four bases, their economies dwindled as the unattended SCVs became almost extinct. Although the interactivity resulting from the constant harass gave more chances for the better player to gain small advantages, the damage was so devastating that they were hard pressed to stabilize their economies. ![[image loading]](http://i4.minus.com/iRlf7V7lAKHZx.png ) The two worker kills that may have been insignificant in any other game became vital as their worker counts reached as low as five. Because medivacs can unload a pair of high-HP hellbats at the same speed as two marines and one shot SCV, hellbat drops are much more dangerous than MM drops in situations where armies are small and therefore can't burst them down the hellbats before the damage is dealt. Even though most of the hellbat drops' effectiveness in the midgame would have been drastically reduced if they simply built turrets, the strength of hellbat drops in low-econ situations (where turrets can't be easily afforded) poses a potential gameplay problem with having harassment options as reliable and strong as hellbat drops. Hellbat Drops Destroy MM Drops http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs1/vod/80085 Match 2 Set 1 Flash vs Innovation Almost a month after Sound displayed his build, hellbat drops were still popular and Flash's choice of opening in his Bo3 against Innovation, one of the strongest Terrans, in the WCS Season 1 Ro16 Group B “Group of Death”. Innovation's not so innovative MM drops stood no chance against Flash's flashy use of hellbat drops. While we've seen hellbat drops excel at both harassing and scouting, we will now see their defensive capabilities as well. To appreciate the beauty of Flash's hellbat drops, we must first establish a context in which we can juxtapose them to. In WoL, mech players often had to rely on hellions to defend MM drops. They were expendable, but weak and demanded much micro to make them do much. Meanwhile, the bio player didn't have to pay nearly as much attention. With the new Ignite Afterburners, mech players have been having a lot of trouble against MM drops -- turret rings, which were already expensive, became less effective. But on that night, Flash showcased how disgustingly easy it was to deal with MM drops. He defended Innovation's drops by chasing them with his own medivacs loaded with hellbats. The three advantages of Flash's heavy hellbat play over Innovation's MMM tank were as follows: 1) Rendering parts of Innovation's defenses useless by unloading hellbats on top of his sieged tanks. 2) Loading and unloading two to four times as fast as Innovation's MM drops and thus allowing him to pick off workers extremely faster, and allowing his hellbats to get a big head start fighting Innovation's as the MM are still unloading. 3) Tossing the burden of micro on Innovation to kite the shorter ranged but tougher hellbats in order to trade beneficially. Profitable for Persistent, Patient Players http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs1/vod/80085 Match 2 Set 3 Flash vs Innovation Innovation's adaptations in game three denied Flash the match victory, but Flash simultaneously affirmed that not even Innovation – many of whom believe to be the best SC2 player – would be able to stop hellbat drops from paying off. In other words, hellbat drops don't work well just at lower levels but even among the absolute best. Despite much time having passed since hellbat drops began gaining popularity, and players learning new ways to use or play against hellbat drops, Flash was still able to make his hellbat drops successful. Innovation knew a way to beat Flash's build: strike first. He dropped two widow mines and four marines, forcing Flash to halt mining, burn scans, and delay his production. Despite Flash already having two turrets, the cloak banshee followup further forced Flash to build a viking, thus delaying his medivacs. Meanwhile, Innovation's third CC was finished, 1/1 and stim were being researched, and units cranked out undisturbed. He had static defense in the form of bunkers and turrets. Innovation made Flash miss the golden window for hellbat drops. Innovation's high marine number easily repelled Flash's late drop But as we've seen time and time again, hellbat drops cannot be so easily shrugged off. By keeping his medivacs alive, Flash kept the opportunity of returning with a bigger drop of three medivacs, which would pass through Innovation's well positioned but spread defense. Hitting right after Innovation stretched himself out even more as he took his third, he eventually killed fourteen workers for the cost of three medivacs and six hellbats, discouraging Innovation from moving out again while also gaining a worker lead of nine. Flash's medivacs fly past Innovation's well placed vikings Still Being Explored Thorzain vs Titan + Show Spoiler + From humble beginnings to being spotlighted on the biggest, toughest, most hypest GSL Group ever, hellbat drops received much attention in TvT and TvZ. The same could not be said for TvP, until now... Thankfully, Thorzain stepped up to the challenge, reminding us how much room hellbat drops still have to grow. Thorzain's build opened with hellbat drops, but didn't focus on harassing -- in fact, Thorzain killed a total of zero probes, and still achieved a dominating victory. He didn't transition into mech, but instead a very strong MMMH bio ball that hit at 10:25, before the first colossus was even done. Nightend, meanwhile, opened with the old 1 Gate Expand into Colossi. With his stalkers and MSC, he forced both of Thorzain's drops to stay far away. However, Thorzain's timing took advantage of the large sink in the double forge, robotics bay, colossus, unarmed observers, and thus also useless robotics facility. Pulling about ten SCVs with his push, he effortlessly brushed off the nexus canon and dismantled Nightend with ease with a build that countered a longtime, standard staple of Protosses. ![[image loading]](http://i5.minus.com/iQ44pzASXusXD.png) Nightend tried to go up his ramp but is beat there by Thorzain's hellbat drop, which cut off his escape. Thorzain would continue to use similar builds in WCS EU with success. Maybe this kind of MMMH timing attack might see use in the other match ups too. Or maybe we'll see a TvP mech style centered around hellbat drops. While we can't be sure what new uses will be found next, what's certain is that more and more players are experimenting with hellbat drops and that we'll continue to see them used and blocked in new ways. Hellbats, the Savior of Mech? Unlike the latter turtling days of WoL, Blizzard's HotS direction of providing more low risk, high reward harass options – in hopes of greatly rewarding good micro and multitasking – such as in the form of hellbat drops has and continues to offer more player-to-player interactivity in place of passivity. It is true that static defense can be effective against hellbats as with any other kinds of drops, and some openings can be map dependent, but good micro of the swift hellbat drops can easily circumvent or even almost completely nullify defenses. Because of this, there are many action packed, back and forth games revolving around constant – if not frantic – harass and counter attacks. The addition of hellbats and Ignite Afterburners results in a new hope for mech players as well. Blizzard has mentioned many times their goal in making mech more viable and that the amount of games involving mech can be brought closer to even with the amount of games involving bio. However, near the beta's end, they said that they may no longer be able to fulfill that promise, and more recently, have expressed concerns over whether mech play should even be promoted and whether mech play is fun enough to spectate. In WoL, many progamers explained in interviews why they preferred bio over mech, giving the same answers; bio was more aggressive, less map dependent, and more flexible. There weren't as many ways or chances to punish opponents' mistakes or greed and, as it is generally easier to engage a mech in SC2 than in BW, desperately needed a way to harass and thus create more chances to gain advantages over the opponent. With the trusty hellbat drop, which can be used throughout the entire duration of a game, and the increasing popularity of mech especially in TvT, mech may have the tools it needs to become more attractive. As we've seen, hellbat drops continue to be used successfully in securing Terran a good position in the midgame and especially mech Terrans, smoothing out the abundant vulnerabilities in the beginning stages of the game while providing a more active experience for both players and spectators. However, the strength of hellbat drops can lead to stale or redundant situations where, like in Bunny vs ForGG, players are unable to stabilize and regrow their economy in low econ situations or become less of an exciting surprise tactic and more of a forced chore.[/spoiler] + Show Spoiler + On October 01 2014 06:05 JSH wrote: So Maribel and Renko as main characters? That's pretty cool Also ded threat = ded thread Yoshi you should come join IRC How do I make/join IRC? ;O | ||
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dkpl
Canada1485 Posts
join channel #tl_soku someone in there can help u set up a real client | ||
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Ame
United States246 Posts
On October 02 2014 01:52 dkpl wrote: join channel #tl_soku You'd think they'd soku, but all they do is T I L E S and talk about some strange waifu game. :/ | ||
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dkpl
Canada1485 Posts
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insitelol
845 Posts
On September 02 2014 17:18 Kaneh wrote: I actually like 3 of the songs from ENS's originals album http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px7rkRds3ss Oh god it's gorgeous. | ||
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JSH
United States4109 Posts
But plenty of A C H I G A LET'S GO Also I think that ENS song is kinda meh I feel there isn't enough content to it Or maybe I'm kinda starting to dislike the genre for whatever reason I listen to a whole lot less electronic stuff | ||
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Reaper9
United States1724 Posts
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dkpl
Canada1485 Posts
maybe u shud make a real touhou mah-jong game | ||
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Reaper9
United States1724 Posts
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