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It's not a growing trend it's just following the same pattern as Western eSports has for the last 10 years, i don't see any evidence of this changing yet. Big game released, is popular, declines and gets replaced. Obviously SC2 will have some staying power because it's an appropriate game and backed by a huge dev, but reaching the mainstream audience people keep talking about is crazy. There's NOTHING to suggest it's happening outside of gamers and specifically gamers who already play the game.
Using Day9 as an example just shows how small you're thinking. It's like you have a warped view of what is infact popular because you spend time on the internet. On one hand you say 'mainstream' and mass popularity the next you mention Day9... there's a massive disconnect there.
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On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly.
Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW 
*Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW.
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On May 13 2011 03:27 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:25 Elenian wrote:
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet (the thread is 90 pages long already) but, unless we're going to seriously argue that the skill ceiling in BW is miles higher than in WC3, shouldn't we also consider Moon, Grubby, ToD? I don't think that Grubby was ever a better player (by whatever cross-game metric we can use to evaluate player skill) than is Flash, but surely he was as good or better than was IrOn. The point is, the WC3 legends actually did switch to SC2 and are conspicuously failing to dominate. Doesn't this fatally undermine the whole post? No, obviously WC3 was also a farce. Only BW master race is true e-sports here.
WC3 and SC2 are completely different. I've said this earlier in the thread but the gameplay of these games are almost nothing alike. WC3 play is centered very heavily on heroes and items, with macro taking a backseat to micro. SC2 is still very much a game based on macro like its predecessor BW. You can argue as much as you want but creative play will always be destroyed by solid macro play in SC2. Just look at TLO or even BoxeR who both try to use unorthodox strats but are demolished just be sheer numbers.
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On May 13 2011 01:53 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:42 zev318 wrote:On May 13 2011 01:40 AlBundy wrote:I don't mean to flood this interesting topic in any way; however I'd like to commend Intrigue and other members for renewing & stirring up this everlasting and substantive debate; there are now 86 pages of really interesting comments to read  Kudos which is pretty hilarious, as in any other sc1 v sc2 threads, any flame wars was met with the ban hammer (or a big ass warning on top) and somehow this one is allowed to go on. Not if they are well-planned and well-executed. Surely you can see the difference between the two.
And it's well timed with the news from the Kespa vs Blizz battle.
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On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW.
Of course, when you consider bronze league players' RTS knowledge will impact professional games.
In my opinion, I still consider boxer not knowing how to play RTS game at the time when he won his first OSL.
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On May 13 2011 03:28 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:55 Mailing wrote:On May 13 2011 02:51 Canadium wrote:
I don't know if any of the current top BW players will ever change over.... And I can't really blame them. SC2 is so easy they would be bored within the first month. Besides I don't see BW dying for quite some time (which is nice) so we're all just gonna have to live what we have for now.... This sounds so IGNORANT. Their CAREER is Starcraft. If A-teamers are soooooooo much better than "shitty mc and mvp" why not switch? They are NOT making more money. Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc may be, but they are outliers. MC has already made something like 130,000 USD just 5 months into 2011. If SC2 is so damn easy, why don't the middle-tier BW pros switch over as soon as possible while the wins are "free"? The only argument I have seen against this is "well........ they don't find sc2 fun!!!!!!1" They don't switch because SC2 in Korea is a total joke. No audiances, no fanclubs, no big sponsors, no stability, no salary, no prestige. People need to get over this idea of money. Most progamers care very little of the money, earnings usually go to the betterment of the team as a whole. That they may truly not enjoy the came is a legitimate reason to not play it.
Seriously.
Think about this for a second. What do guys want. Girls.
Look at the audience in a BW match vs the audience in a GSL match. Whats the main difference besides the discrepancy in numbers? GIRLS. Girls keep people playing BW.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On May 13 2011 03:27 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. If that's so, you can also claim that bronze league players knows how to play RTS, but what's the point of that kind of skill impact professional games. In my opinion, bronze league players do not know how to play RTS games.
Why are you talking about bronze leaguers? I was talking about the best WC2 players. Nazgul was a top WC2 player, and probably more people too. He was also a top BW player in its early days. Please educate yourself.
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Maybe compare SC2 to the first half year of BW. do it.
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On May 13 2011 03:11 LemOn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:08 Kich wrote:On May 13 2011 02:56 MiniRoman wrote:On May 13 2011 02:53 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 02:50 MiniRoman wrote:On May 13 2011 02:39 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 02:37 MiniRoman wrote:
What are pro sc2 players? like 200 including some bw spamming from the past?
300-400. Whaaa? Proof? All of them are 300-400? Un-fucking-likely They show the APM tab during games sometime in GSLs. I've seen one instance of san having 150 APM at that point in the game (and a flamewar resulted in the LR thread because Nestea had 300 at that point), but he was averaging 300. 300ish is common, and 400 isn't unheard of (Nada). And that's Actions-Per-Blizzard-Minute Hope jc got some royalties on inventing APM~ Leave it to Blizzard to fuck it up. I don't watch enough sc2 to know why they need that many actions. Most games I see contain like 10-20 units for either player and thats about it "Man, I don't know enough about a topic to get a legitimate response to it, but that won't stop me from shitting all over it." Select, a terran player, has had games where his average APM in SC2 was 450. Translate that into Brood War APM. The games are just different, that's it. (SC2 players are more prone to reaching max food just given the nature of the game, I'm curious to see the games you've watched, were they bronze league?) apm means shit, in both games. Broodway has EAPM which is a lot more accurate, the top players are at 200-240 usually, I seriously can't see how that would be needed in SC2.
I know it was a typo but I'm kind of feeling the broodway.
make drones, the broodway
proxy pylon, the broodway
storm hydras, the broodway
seige tanks, the broodway
fast expand, the broodway
Nah, but I think apm is actually fairly important if each of the actions are actually used for something important rather than just spamming. It would be nice to believe mechanics aren't important and its just a 100% mental strategy game but apm has a lot to do with it. I agree though, a very high apm wouldn't be such a requirement in SC2 as it is in bw but I guess time will tell. The skill ceiling in sc2 definitely hasnt been reached yet imo.
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On May 13 2011 03:27 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. If that's so, you can also claim that bronze league players knows how to play RTS, but what's the point of that kind of skill impact professional games.
Just like there are less then stellar players in every game in the world, not sure what you are trying to get at here. There have always, are always, and will always be better player then others. Being professional has nothing to do with it. Making it professional just gives added incentive to preform even better.
I think you can also agree that a bronze league player will probably ROFL stomp someone who has NEVER touched RTS in their life before.
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On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW.
I played many RTS at the time and no infact they were not harder mechanically or strategically. And people DID suck at RTS at the time, just look at the early BW videos. 100+ APM could compete back then. People didn't understand the concepts of looking for 'macro builds' and trying how to do completely safe FE's, people didn't come into the game with 300 APM immediately trying to explore every option possible. No one could even play Terran properly for years cause it was difficult.
The reason why BW metagame took so long to evolve was literally only because of mechanical difficultly. Defilers were not used for years because people simply did not have the multitasking to be able to handle so much at once effectively. No strategy is out of reach in Starcraft 2, for better or for worse. People can ,'access' lets say, any possibility; so inevitably things will be figured out much faster. Patching will be the main reason for changing strategies.
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On May 13 2011 03:32 Maliris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:27 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. If that's so, you can also claim that bronze league players knows how to play RTS, but what's the point of that kind of skill impact professional games. In my opinion, bronze league players do not know how to play RTS games. Why are you talking about bronze leaguers? I was talking about the best WC2 players. Nazgul was a top WC2 player, and probably more people too. He was also a top BW player in its early days. Please educate yourself.
Even boxer from 9 years ago, I will consider him not knowing how to play RTS game, and you expect me to consider Nazgul.
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On May 13 2011 03:32 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW. Of course, when you consider bronze league players' RTS knowledge will impact professional games.
You seem to think that SC had a professional scene set up when it was launched.. you are wrong. All competitive scenes BW included came to be because of hardcore play. ANd WTH does Bronze league has to do with anything? Or are you calling all people who played RTS games before SC came out bronzies?
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As a fan of both games, to me the article came off as nothing more than a puff piece for BW's (supposed?) superiority. It's obvious that a fair amount of thought went into it but that doesn't change what it is at its core. I still watch both games but I actually enjoy the SC2 games more. There's more variety and unexpected situations. I like that the whole game hasn't been totally figured out yet. I like that no one that has distinguished themselves enough yet to always be an autovote in liquibet. I like that the metagame is in a constant state of flux.
I don't doubt that people like JD or Flash would be very good if they were to switch over. They've both got a good work ethic and are very talented at RTSes in general. Would they dominate? They'd be somewhere in the top tier but they wouldn't be untouchable... Lots of other games' pros have switched over and shown that their skills do carry over to at least be competitive with the top. On the other side of the coin, several others, such as Grubby or Moon, switched over when they were at the peak of their game to only become one of the general masses of pros, which is essentially a step down for them.
That said, whether or not the pros in BW are more dedicated or not in SC2 absolutely doesn't matter to my enjoyment of SC2. The whole article seems predicated on that point and it's just not logical whatsoever. The BW pros' dedication only matters to my enjoyment of BW. Go figure. If they want to switch over, they're more than welcome to test their mettle against the current players. No need for snootiness in either direction.
The part that gets me is that this editorial was made into a Final Edit. Really?! I thought TL looked down upon randomly instigating fanbase wars... particularly when there doesn't seem to be a point to it at all other than to stick your nose up at a different game's players & fans.
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On May 13 2011 03:33 taishiro wrote:
Maybe compare SC2 to the first half year of BW. do it.
Because BW clearly had 12 years of previous RTS community to... oh wait.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On May 13 2011 03:36 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:32 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:27 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. If that's so, you can also claim that bronze league players knows how to play RTS, but what's the point of that kind of skill impact professional games. In my opinion, bronze league players do not know how to play RTS games. Why are you talking about bronze leaguers? I was talking about the best WC2 players. Nazgul was a top WC2 player, and probably more people too. He was also a top BW player in its early days. Please educate yourself. Even boxer from 9 years ago, I will consider him not knowing how to play RTS game, and you expect me to consider Nazgul.
Sorry but he definitely had a clue of how to play RTS games. Boxer wasn't al;ways a legend, you know boxer used to play Protoss when reavers were op ? 2002 (9 years ago, as you said) isn't when BW first had tournaments. Just shows you don't know what you are talking about. BW was released in 1998, and you're talking about 2002? Where did those 4 years go?
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On May 13 2011 03:37 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:32 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW. Of course, when you consider bronze league players' RTS knowledge will impact professional games. You seem to think that SC had a professional scene set up when it was launched.. you are wrong. All competitive scenes BW included came to be because of hardcore play. ANd WTH does Bronze league has to do with anything? Or are you calling all people who played RTS games before SC came out bronzies?
Yes, I am calling them bronzies, from skill and strategy wise at that time, compared to today.
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On May 13 2011 03:29 infinity2k9 wrote:
It's not a growing trend it's just following the same pattern as Western eSports has for the last 10 years, i don't see any evidence of this changing yet. Big game released, is popular, declines and gets replaced. Obviously SC2 will have some staying power because it's an appropriate game and backed by a huge dev, but reaching the mainstream audience people keep talking about is crazy. There's NOTHING to suggest it's happening outside of gamers and specifically gamers who already play the game.
Using Day9 as an example just shows how small you're thinking. It's like you have a warped view of what is infact popular because you spend time on the internet. On one hand you say 'mainstream' and mass popularity the next you mention Day9... there's a massive disconnect there.
Why am I the one thinking small? Yes, maybe Day9 isn't the best example. But he's been one of the biggest proponents for the Starcraft community for years now. I know he's gotten several of my friends to play SC2 with me, just because they enjoy watching him and he makes them think about the game. Don't discount it.
Many games don't have staying power, true. But those aren't games that are developed to be competitive. You always see new, generic shooters or some new fighting game shown around at MLG or whatever, even though those games are purely made for fun and aren't, on the whole, balanced. Games like SC2 are designed to be balanced. They're designed to be competitive, to have commentators/observers, and to be featured in the e-sports world. We're going to see more of these types of games, more likely than not.
I'd say you're thinking too small. You're thinking of how the world is right now, and what trends are the "big thing", and that games will never fit into that category.
Look, think of it this way. If you went back 15 years or more and told people that, in 2010, the most popular shows on TV would be bad reality shows about rich people, that comic book movies would make more gross revenue than many "mainstream" titles, that the biggest movie in years would be 90% CGI and feature blue aliens riding dinosaurs, and that video games will be considered an art form by the US government, people would think you insane. But those are all true. Don't write off the future as lost.
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On May 13 2011 03:41 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:37 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 03:32 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW. Of course, when you consider bronze league players' RTS knowledge will impact professional games. You seem to think that SC had a professional scene set up when it was launched.. you are wrong. All competitive scenes BW included came to be because of hardcore play. ANd WTH does Bronze league has to do with anything? Or are you calling all people who played RTS games before SC came out bronzies? Yes, I am calling them bronzies, from skill and strategy wise at that time.
Compared to now yes, back then they were Grand Masters. Games grow as genres do, that is why the average skill level to even begin to play SC2 is higher then it was at the start of SC1/BW. This does not mean the end of the games meta game or anything like that is anywhere close to done.
Basic Skill, not overall skill. You can't except to top the ladder having never played RTS before like you could in BW at the very beginning.
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On May 13 2011 03:36 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW. I played many RTS at the time and no infact they were not harder mechanically or strategically. And people DID suck at RTS at the time, just look at the early BW videos. 100+ APM could compete back then. People didn't understand the concepts of looking for 'macro builds' and trying how to do completely safe FE's, people didn't come into the game with 300 APM immediately trying to explore every option possible. No one could even play Terran properly for years cause it was difficult. The reason why BW metagame took so long to evolve was literally only because of mechanical difficultly. Defilers were not used for years because people simply did not have the multitasking to be able to handle so much at once effectively. No strategy is out of reach in Starcraft 2, for better or for worse. People can ,'access' lets say, any possibility; so inevitably things will be figured out much faster. Patching will be the main reason for changing strategies.
You're not mentioning the fact that BW was heavily patched (up to and until the "nerf boxer" patch).
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EPT
