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On May 13 2011 03:44 Kazius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:36 infinity2k9 wrote:On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW  *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW. I played many RTS at the time and no infact they were not harder mechanically or strategically. And people DID suck at RTS at the time, just look at the early BW videos. 100+ APM could compete back then. People didn't understand the concepts of looking for 'macro builds' and trying how to do completely safe FE's, people didn't come into the game with 300 APM immediately trying to explore every option possible. No one could even play Terran properly for years cause it was difficult. The reason why BW metagame took so long to evolve was literally only because of mechanical difficultly. Defilers were not used for years because people simply did not have the multitasking to be able to handle so much at once effectively. No strategy is out of reach in Starcraft 2, for better or for worse. People can ,'access' lets say, any possibility; so inevitably things will be figured out much faster. Patching will be the main reason for changing strategies. You're not mentioning the fact that BW was heavily patched (up to and until the "nerf boxer" patch).
8 balance patch for Sc1+bw. last in 2001.
Already 13 for Sc2 with two expansions coming lol. Stop to spread bullshit please.
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Very good read, i cant say i agree with everything on it, but theres no need to so it doesnt matter.
I would like however to state my opinion on a single point of the OP, regarding the "future income" of BW players to SC2, and it is that, unless blizzard throws away the way they are handling this game right now, and practically make it from scratch, it will not happen, BW is still far away in terms of stability and appeal to the spectator, SC2 is becoming less and less intense and far less attractive with each patch they release, many people might have fun playing it, but its just not entertaining to watch, and if that doesnt change it will never become a stable big Esport, because even if amazing players are playing the game, if its not fun to watch it will never catch up, and it wont have a way of supporting itself.
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One important thing this article ignores is that the best players don't have to come from any game. There will be new players to SC2 who haven't touched ANY rts before. They will be the future face of the competitive scene, and like Flash and Jaedong eclipse anything we have yet to see.
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Aaaah yes...there is allways one of these is there....The last outcry of the "BW is better" ppl. Fact is that you will never know how good they are untill they change. Bisu/Jaedong and Flash all the heroes from BW at the moment...sure they can be good but you DONT know if they will succeed immediately or if they will succeed at all. SC2 is alot easier to play it is more about being at the right time at the right moment more then anything else.
I simply would love to see these so called BW pros on the SC2 scene because even with the best intentions I cant bring myself to watch a game of BW with these outdated graphics. For me its like starting up and old game that you have good memories from but when you install it again after a few year its so disappointing in terms of graphics and mechanics that it ruins the good memory. Therefore I say...BW rest in peace..The king's dead...Long live the king!
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The weakness of competition isn't what bothers me at this point; players aren't playing close to optimum because they aren't being punished for it yet. The thing that gets me is how all the current maps are seemingly designed to encourage 200/200 turtlefests for all three races and only have one attack path/vulnerability, etc.
Nestea verus Sc proved how much potential this game has when played out on a map where your natural is vulnerable from two angles with "bases covering bases". I wish everyone making maps (sadly maps only come from two-three sources in competitive sc2 atm.. so the problem is far more widespread) would read http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=215186.
On May 13 2011 03:15 fant0m wrote:
Comparing SC2 to high school football is pretty dumb. For one, no one older than 17 finds high school football exciting. And even then only your own school seemed exciting.
This is incorrect. In Texas 10,000+ regularly attend top-tier high school football games. Say what you will about Texas, but a fair number of those people aren't 17
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After I read the OP, I came away understanding the author's argument as this:
The best players are still in BW. If/when they switch to SC2, they'll trash the current top players, specifically because Flash/JD/etc. have a better work ethic and more straight-up talent.
As I read the comments, all I see are people comparing the merits of BW, SC2 and other RTS games.
To me, it seems like everyone is missing the point. The conversation has degraded into BW vs. SC2 fanboyism.
Also: The h.s. football analogy was quite apt. It's a straight up "a:b :: c:d" comparison.
High school football is to the national football league as oGsMC* is to Flash*
*just for instance; fill-in your SC2 and BW pros here as you will.
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On May 13 2011 03:36 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW. I played many RTS at the time and no infact they were not harder mechanically or strategically. And people DID suck at RTS at the time, just look at the early BW videos. 100+ APM could compete back then. People didn't understand the concepts of looking for 'macro builds' and trying how to do completely safe FE's, people didn't come into the game with 300 APM immediately trying to explore every option possible. No one could even play Terran properly for years cause it was difficult. The reason why BW metagame took so long to evolve was literally only because of mechanical difficultly. Defilers were not used for years because people simply did not have the multitasking to be able to handle so much at once effectively. No strategy is out of reach in Starcraft 2, for better or for worse. People can ,'access' lets say, any possibility; so inevitably things will be figured out much faster. Patching will be the main reason for changing strategies.
I am not arguing that people didn't suck at RTSs back then. I am arguing that there is a small possibility that not all RTS knowledge that we have now stems from BW? Of course we think that RTS games were figured out, and I am pretty sure people thought that back then, hell people are still figuring out stuff in BW(whether the Queen play against mech will be stable or not is yet to be seen).
I do think that Warcraft 2 and 1 were much harder to play from a mechanical standpoint, but if you think that wasn't the case, well you are entitled to your opinion.
And lets not argue about how harder mechanics evolve the metagame or strategies because that is false, the competition is what makes the strategies evolve.And yeah I agree that SC2 will be figured out much faster the thing I disagree with is in how fast it will get figured out as some people seem to think that in just 1 year everything has been explored.
And yes, back then when the idea of a proscene for videogames was silly, yeah playing the game for fun(or rather for fun competition) was what gave insight to players on RTS concepts. I am done arguing about this, but the thing about people being 100% ignorant of RTS mechanics before SC1 and BW came out is just silly.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On May 13 2011 03:36 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW. I played many RTS at the time and no infact they were not harder mechanically or strategically. And people DID suck at RTS at the time, just look at the early BW videos. 100+ APM could compete back then. People didn't understand the concepts of looking for 'macro builds' and trying how to do completely safe FE's
This right here shows you don't understand why macro builds were poor back then. Just look at the maps. Try FEing on pre-Luna maps. There is a lot of ignorance being displayed right here. Amazing how people have the audacity to say some of the first progamers were scrubs and clueless when they don't even understand the gameplay at a fundamental level 
And WC2 was definitely mechanically harder. No rally points, no controlgroups, just mass clicking.
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To be fair. Someone should write a similar article regarding SC2 so we can see both side of the story. Any takers?
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On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet.
is, "as it is in bw yet"
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On May 13 2011 03:46 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:44 Kazius wrote:On May 13 2011 03:36 infinity2k9 wrote:On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW. I played many RTS at the time and no infact they were not harder mechanically or strategically. And people DID suck at RTS at the time, just look at the early BW videos. 100+ APM could compete back then. People didn't understand the concepts of looking for 'macro builds' and trying how to do completely safe FE's, people didn't come into the game with 300 APM immediately trying to explore every option possible. No one could even play Terran properly for years cause it was difficult. The reason why BW metagame took so long to evolve was literally only because of mechanical difficultly. Defilers were not used for years because people simply did not have the multitasking to be able to handle so much at once effectively. No strategy is out of reach in Starcraft 2, for better or for worse. People can ,'access' lets say, any possibility; so inevitably things will be figured out much faster. Patching will be the main reason for changing strategies. You're not mentioning the fact that BW was heavily patched (up to and until the "nerf boxer" patch). 8 balance patch for Sc1+bw. last in 2001. Already 13 for Sc2 with two expansions coming lol. Stop to spread bullshit please.
The number of balance patches is irrelevant, its about the number of changes. Go look at the patch log for BW. They tweaked MUCH more units and abilities per patch than in SC2. But my words are probably wasted on someone with "bw4life" in their sig :p
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On May 13 2011 03:51 mmdmmd wrote:
To be fair. Someone should write a similar article regarding SC2 so we can see both side of the story. Any takers?
the article is unbiased actually, people are reading too much into this. All they are doing is stating facts.
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On May 13 2011 03:51 mmdmmd wrote:
To be fair. Someone should write a similar article regarding SC2 so we can see both side of the story. Any takers?
No one would be so insane as to suggest that sc2 players would smash if they went back to BW
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On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard.
True, but there are different units, different buildings, different spellcasters, different game engine and different mentality. SC2 is designed to be much faster paced. That is why right now, during the transition from the mentality of "Imallin" to "Letmemacro" has still not completed. We see some players expand all around in Tal'darim Altar, then macro to 200/200 and engage (Nightend v. Boxer in TSL3) and also see great harrass and fighting all over the place such as Boxer v. Sen in Metalopolis, even though that map is so smaller compared to TA. Some concepts and fundamentals will transfer to SC2, but not the overall game pace and strategy.
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On May 13 2011 03:52 Maliris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:46 Boblion wrote:On May 13 2011 03:44 Kazius wrote:On May 13 2011 03:36 infinity2k9 wrote:On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:
[quote]
You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players.
On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW. I played many RTS at the time and no infact they were not harder mechanically or strategically. And people DID suck at RTS at the time, just look at the early BW videos. 100+ APM could compete back then. People didn't understand the concepts of looking for 'macro builds' and trying how to do completely safe FE's, people didn't come into the game with 300 APM immediately trying to explore every option possible. No one could even play Terran properly for years cause it was difficult. The reason why BW metagame took so long to evolve was literally only because of mechanical difficultly. Defilers were not used for years because people simply did not have the multitasking to be able to handle so much at once effectively. No strategy is out of reach in Starcraft 2, for better or for worse. People can ,'access' lets say, any possibility; so inevitably things will be figured out much faster. Patching will be the main reason for changing strategies. You're not mentioning the fact that BW was heavily patched (up to and until the "nerf boxer" patch). 8 balance patch for Sc1+bw. last in 2001. Already 13 for Sc2 with two expansions coming lol. Stop to spread bullshit please. The number of balance patches is irrelevant, its about the number of changes. Go look at the patch log for BW. They tweaked MUCH more units and abilities per patch than in SC2. But my words are probably wasted on someone with "bw4life" in their sig :p
And it still required outside map makers to make it even slightly balanced racially, don't forget that part.
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On May 13 2011 03:53 Sandrosuperstar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:51 mmdmmd wrote:
To be fair. Someone should write a similar article regarding SC2 so we can see both side of the story. Any takers? the article is unbiased actually, people are reading too much into this. All they are doing is stating facts.
It's fact that the top 300 bw players could all easily destroy every top sc2 player at sc2? Yeah clearly that's fact.
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On May 13 2011 03:55 Synwave wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:52 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:46 Boblion wrote:On May 13 2011 03:44 Kazius wrote:On May 13 2011 03:36 infinity2k9 wrote:On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:
[quote]
This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW. I played many RTS at the time and no infact they were not harder mechanically or strategically. And people DID suck at RTS at the time, just look at the early BW videos. 100+ APM could compete back then. People didn't understand the concepts of looking for 'macro builds' and trying how to do completely safe FE's, people didn't come into the game with 300 APM immediately trying to explore every option possible. No one could even play Terran properly for years cause it was difficult. The reason why BW metagame took so long to evolve was literally only because of mechanical difficultly. Defilers were not used for years because people simply did not have the multitasking to be able to handle so much at once effectively. No strategy is out of reach in Starcraft 2, for better or for worse. People can ,'access' lets say, any possibility; so inevitably things will be figured out much faster. Patching will be the main reason for changing strategies. You're not mentioning the fact that BW was heavily patched (up to and until the "nerf boxer" patch). 8 balance patch for Sc1+bw. last in 2001. Already 13 for Sc2 with two expansions coming lol. Stop to spread bullshit please. The number of balance patches is irrelevant, its about the number of changes. Go look at the patch log for BW. They tweaked MUCH more units and abilities per patch than in SC2. But my words are probably wasted on someone with "bw4life" in their sig :p And it still required outside map makers to make it even slightly balanced racially, don't forget that part.
why is it bad to patch a game a lot?
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On May 13 2011 03:52 Maliris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:46 Boblion wrote:On May 13 2011 03:44 Kazius wrote:On May 13 2011 03:36 infinity2k9 wrote:On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:
[quote]
You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players.
On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW. I played many RTS at the time and no infact they were not harder mechanically or strategically. And people DID suck at RTS at the time, just look at the early BW videos. 100+ APM could compete back then. People didn't understand the concepts of looking for 'macro builds' and trying how to do completely safe FE's, people didn't come into the game with 300 APM immediately trying to explore every option possible. No one could even play Terran properly for years cause it was difficult. The reason why BW metagame took so long to evolve was literally only because of mechanical difficultly. Defilers were not used for years because people simply did not have the multitasking to be able to handle so much at once effectively. No strategy is out of reach in Starcraft 2, for better or for worse. People can ,'access' lets say, any possibility; so inevitably things will be figured out much faster. Patching will be the main reason for changing strategies. You're not mentioning the fact that BW was heavily patched (up to and until the "nerf boxer" patch). 8 balance patch for Sc1+bw. last in 2001. Already 13 for Sc2 with two expansions coming lol. Stop to spread bullshit please. The number of balance patches is irrelevant, its about the number of changes. Go look at the patch log for BW. They tweaked MUCH more units and abilities per patch than in SC2. But my words are probably wasted on someone with "bw4life" in their sig :p
That's pretty true, many SC balance patches had like 10-20 unit changes, by comparison to SC2s randomly adjusting the build time of bunkers every patch they were significant.
But then most if not all were made before mention of there ever being a 'meta game'
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On May 13 2011 02:48 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:43 I)etox wrote:On May 13 2011 02:40 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 13 2011 02:38 stratmatt wrote:
as somebody who never followed the bw scene and only bothered to check it out after watching lots of sc2.... i hav to say that bw is BORING. its only appealing to people who have been following it since it was the only thing around. the truth is that the graphics are terrible, the units look dinky, and the micro looks redundant and tedious. sc2 is way more entertaining to newcomers and pretty much just more fun to watch through and through. seriously, bw graphics are SO BAD. imo posts like this are much worse than the OP Yep. But man he's got a point, I really like collosus micro as opposed to dropship + reaver micro. Watching collosus move back and forth is way more exciting. O_O I am amazed,but your argument is slightly better than this,but.......
i'm fairly sure he was being sarcastic. lol
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100 pages in half a day... gogo TL
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EPT
