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On May 13 2011 04:09 Pandain wrote:I'm sorry Intrigue, and I know this will sound a bit gruff, and possibly even rude. But know that this is truly the only thing I think I can say that can express what I feel. How dare you. How dare you, entrusted with the first SC2 Final Edit in history, write such an OP. How dare you come to the oasis of Starcraft lore and culture, the basin of ESPORTS, and write this. And how dare you do this, not only as a valued member of the community, but as a moderator, and write a Final Edit defaming our players with cries of BW supremacy. Yes we know that Flash and Jaedong are by far the better players than anyone in SC2. Yes we know if any of them switched they would dominate within a week. But to say that our competition is a farce, to say that the knowledge that "They could be better" cheapens the game, that's just something I can't agree with. And really you of all people should know better. Did the knowledge that miles away, hundreds of superior Koreans lay hammering at their keyboards cheapen TSL 1&2? No, it didn't + Show Spoiler +(why am I so good at answering rhethorical questions.) What you say is undeniably true. This article is extremely well written with a superb layout. This article was interesting to read, and made me think for a bit. Hell, even the graphics are better than most of my threads. But how dare you say that what we watch isn't art. For a community that prides itself on the knowledge that we have all discovered something beautiful, something God must truly have influenced, this certainly stands in stark contrast. Yes we see players make mistakes. But we also see them in moments of genius. When MVP splits marines a grin creeps upon our face;when NesTea proxy spine crawlers we scream in amazement. Your post doesn't directly come out and say it, but it certainly does hint. You say your'e going to be called unpopular, that SC2 competition is a farce. Some people have said that the point of your thread is that SC2 will only get better when BW players come over. But I don't see that. All I see is a denouncement of Starcraft 2, and that truly disappoints me.
lmfao You can't be serious.
Holy. Shit.
edit: My response is a couple posts up, if you'd like a brief summary of what the article is actually about.
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On May 13 2011 04:06 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:48 OldBamboo wrote:After I read the OP, I came away understanding the author's argument as this: The best players are still in BW. If/when they switch to SC2, they'll trash the current top players, specifically because Flash/JD/etc. have a better work ethic and more straight-up talent. As I read the comments, all I see are people comparing the merits of BW, SC2 and other RTS games. To me, it seems like everyone is missing the point. The conversation has degraded into BW vs. SC2 fanboyism. Also: The h.s. football analogy was quite apt. It's a straight up "a:b :: c:d" comparison. High school football is to the national football league as oGsMC* is to Flash**just for instance; fill-in your SC2 and BW pros here as you will. That's not it though, he basically said the SC2 competition is a turd because there are 300 or so Brood War pros who could just pick up and shit all over the top SC2 players if they felt like it. It's not as simple a comparison as High School Football and the NFL because it's not the same fucking game. It's a lot more like comparing the NFL and the some emerging Pro Rugby League, sure some mediocre NFL players may join the Pro Rugby League and do well, but some mediocre and some better stat'd NFL players also joined the Pro Rugby League and did poorly. The absolute top 3-4 players of the NFL would likely wreck shit in the Pro Rugby League but not every decent player from the NFL could just walk over and trash everyone in the Pro Rugby League at Rugby. The Pro Rugby League is developing it's talent at the same, the next big thing could be coming from someone who had never even tried out for the NFL and there are already tons of people in the Pro Rugby League that never really tried out for the NFL or played Football at all. It's not the same fucking game, it just has a close set of skill requirements carrying over, there will be new skilled players born within the game.
Mmhmm, I like the correction of the football analogy. This seems to fit much better with the actual situation.
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Just because somebody COULD be better than NesTea, Boxer, etc. if they played and practice, doesn't mean they currently are, even if they are a BW legend.
It is purely conjecture to argue what BW star would be better at SC2 without having them actually play. If they play and are better, then they are better. If they don't even play, then no, they are not better. Will/could they be better? I don't know, some people claim to know, but nobody actually does KNOW. They have to actually do it to prove it. No need to be living in a fairy tale fantasy where somebody that doesn't play SC2 is already the best SC2 player.
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They are different games. Maybe some transferable skills especially since the games are so similar. Still the same old "BW was better" elitism that always seem to pervade these forums even by members who just created an account just a month ago. Maybe to fit in? Haha. Look at sports. To me, this like fantasizing if Pacquiao would switch to MMA or Michael Phelps switching to track. It's pointless. They COULD be great at MMA or track. They COULD be a top contender. But in the end they aren't. And deriding the current pool of players/athletes just because other particular athletes don't participate in it. That's just childish and you managed to get away with it by putting it eloquently, but otherwise could be summarized in troll speak just the same (as others have done already).
Now that Kespa and Blizzard have stopped their little cat fight, maybe Kespa will allow their players to play SC2. But we might NEVER have BW top tier vs SC2 top tier. They have no reason to switch because they are doing so well in BW.
The only time a top tier BW player might switch is if prizes and sponsorships overshadow that of BW.
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On May 13 2011 04:05 tredogz wrote:http://www.sk-gaming.com/video/337221-MC_1on1_13_Flash_can_definitely_do_well_in_SC2if MC is not worried about Flash attempting to play his game... why are we worried? The best players in SC2 played the beta. There is so threat of BW players switching and being good at SC2. The only fact is that SC2 players are good at SC2... if BW players want to become SC2 players, well they have a long road ahead of them... and gl hf.
MVP didn't play in beta... and within about a month of playing SC2 he was making the RO16 of the GSL.
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On May 13 2011 04:12 Ownos wrote:
They are different games. Maybe some transferable skills especially since the games are so similar. Still the same old "BW was better" elitism that always seem to pervade these forums even by members who just created an account just a month ago. Maybe to fit in? Haha.
Maybe they are lurkers or people who have been banned but have since made new accounts. ;P
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On May 13 2011 04:09 Pandain wrote:I'm sorry Intrigue, and I know this will sound a bit gruff, and possibly even rude. But know that this is truly the only thing I think I can say that can express what I feel. How dare you. How dare you, entrusted with the first SC2 Final Edit in history, write such an OP. How dare you come to the oasis of Starcraft lore and culture, the basin of ESPORTS, and write this. And how dare you do this, not only as a valued member of the community, but as a moderator, and write a Final Edit defaming our players with cries of BW supremacy. Yes we know that Flash and Jaedong are by far the better players than anyone in SC2. Yes we know if any of them switched they would dominate within a week. But to say that our competition is a farce, to say that the knowledge that "They could be better" cheapens the game, that's just something I can't agree with. And really you of all people should know better. Did the knowledge that miles away, hundreds of superior Koreans lay hammering at their keyboards cheapen TSL 1&2? No, it didn't + Show Spoiler +(why am I so good at answering rhethorical questions.) What you say is undeniably true. This article is extremely well written with a superb layout. This article was interesting to read, and made me think for a bit. Hell, even the graphics are better than most of my threads. But how dare you say that what we watch isn't art. For a community that prides itself on the knowledge that we have all discovered something beautiful, something God must truly have influenced, this certainly stands in stark contrast. Yes we see players make mistakes. But we also see them in moments of genius. When MVP splits marines a grin creeps upon our face;when NesTea proxy spine crawlers we scream in amazement. Your post doesn't directly come out and say it, but it certainly does hint. You say your'e going to be called unpopular, that SC2 competition is a farce. Some people have said that the point of your thread is that SC2 will only get better when BW players come over. But I don't see that. All I see is a denouncement of Starcraft 2, and that truly disappoints me.
I agree with this. I don't understand the BW vs SC2 raging. Don't we all love Starcraft? Don't we all love watching tournaments of expert players commanding their troops?
Why does it matter how evolved one is over the other? Why is it a big deal if one person plays one and another plays the second? They're both highly enjoyable and are supposed to bring us together as a community of gamers, RTS fans, and viewers.
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I quite enjoyed reading this, thanks for taking the time to write it.
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On May 13 2011 03:48 Rinnegan5 wrote:
sure they can be good but you DONT know if they will succeed immediately or if they will succeed at all. SC2 is alot easier to play it is more about being at the right time at the right moment more then anything
Did you not read about how loose the practice schedules were for SC2 players? Sure skills don't directly transfer, but that's obvious given the inherent difference in units, specific macro mechanics such as chronoboost and larva inject, and unit control. What do transfer are the mindset of a bonjwa RTS player and mechanics (APM, ability to multitask, etc.).
Flash, Bisu, Jaedong all have it. They are able to succeed at a level unmatchable by others because they put so much into the game. The days and days of practice have given them a sixth sense for playing games. They understand timings, builds, and their opponents on levels that no one else can achieve. If anything, they would only dominate more because their practice schedules, mechanics, and overall dedication to the game are so much greater than anyone else on the scene. With the new replay UI that provides much more information and the lack of bonjwa-level competition--if anything--they would reign over SC2 completely uncontested.
Nothing has to do with timing as you say. Sure, Rain or BitbyBit had their stints in the GSL, but that by no means make them good players. They are narrowly focused on one element of the game (aggressive early-game play) that can be easily defended once they build a reputation indicative of cheese. They are taking the shorter, easier path with gratification that comes much sooner.
Edit:
And it's not even about BW supremacy. Intrigue provides an objective argument that you guys fail to understand because of your own biases toward SC2. Take a second and think about it logically....It's a well-articulated piece that is worthy to be called the first final edit of SC2.
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What I think is wonderful about StarCraft II is that it's hit the "reset" button on the competition in and outside of South Korea. Look at the TSL, look at the StarsWar 6. In both tournaments there are between 0 and 1 Korean (StarsWar in Ro8 atm). The people who presently play StarCraft II, yes, may be less successful than the tip-top BW players, but that's exactly why the "reset" button has been pushed. When FlaSh begins playing StarCraft II, think of how long it will take him to adjust to the point where he can start winning tournaments again. The community is ever-developing, and the former BW players at the top of SC2 right now will be even better when the current top BW pros make the switch.
As a case study, let's look at Grubby. Grubby was arguably (and in my opinion, flat out) the best WCIII player in the world. He switched to SC2 around January, only about 6 months after retail. He even played a little in the beta. His tournament results since he's started have been lackluster, even mediocre (a couple silver or bronze finishes in small, European tournaments), and he's 0-4 in the NASL (he plays Artosis tonight, I think). The reason he's been doing so poorly, in my opinion, is that he hasn't been playing the game as long as people who are taking down these tournaments. As for the longevity of SC2, top BW pros will probably outstrip the current tip-top players, but this won't happen for a long time.
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So you're saying people with years of top level competitive RTS experience/talent will beat people with less experience/talent. Ok?
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On May 13 2011 04:15 6d.Leek wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:48 Rinnegan5 wrote:
sure they can be good but you DONT know if they will succeed immediately or if they will succeed at all. SC2 is alot easier to play it is more about being at the right time at the right moment more then anything Edit: And it's not even about BW supremacy. Intrigue provides an objective argument that you guys fail to understand because of your own biases toward SC2. Take a second and think about it logically....It's a well-articulated piece that is worthy to be called the first final edit of SC2.
He could've written a 1 sentence OP then: SC2 pros should practice more to make sure they're playing at an even higher level.
Quite frankly, not only is that obvious, but it's also meaningless.
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On May 13 2011 04:16 mbr2321 wrote:
As a case study, let's look at Grubby. Grubby was arguably (and in my opinion, flat out) the best WCIII player in the world. He switched to SC2 around January, only about 6 months after retail. He even played a little in the beta. His tournament results since he's started have been lackluster, even mediocre (a couple silver or bronze finishes in small, European tournaments), and he's 0-4 in the NASL (he plays Artosis tonight, I think). The reason he's been doing so poorly, in my opinion, is that he hasn't been playing the game as long as people who are taking down these tournaments. As for the longevity of SC2, top BW pros will probably outstrip the current tip-top players, but this won't happen for a long time.
Well, you can also quote the results of players like MVP or Moon who switched to SC2 relatively late and have done way better than Grubby.
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ahhhh articles like this brighten my day... and I didn't even have to search the BW section. Thanks Intrigue!
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On May 13 2011 04:11 cursor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 04:09 Pandain wrote:I'm sorry Intrigue, and I know this will sound a bit gruff, and possibly even rude. But know that this is truly the only thing I think I can say that can express what I feel. How dare you. How dare you, entrusted with the first SC2 Final Edit in history, write such an OP. How dare you come to the oasis of Starcraft lore and culture, the basin of ESPORTS, and write this. And how dare you do this, not only as a valued member of the community, but as a moderator, and write a Final Edit defaming our players with cries of BW supremacy. Yes we know that Flash and Jaedong are by far the better players than anyone in SC2. Yes we know if any of them switched they would dominate within a week. But to say that our competition is a farce, to say that the knowledge that "They could be better" cheapens the game, that's just something I can't agree with. And really you of all people should know better. Did the knowledge that miles away, hundreds of superior Koreans lay hammering at their keyboards cheapen TSL 1&2? No, it didn't + Show Spoiler +(why am I so good at answering rhethorical questions.) What you say is undeniably true. This article is extremely well written with a superb layout. This article was interesting to read, and made me think for a bit. Hell, even the graphics are better than most of my threads. But how dare you say that what we watch isn't art. For a community that prides itself on the knowledge that we have all discovered something beautiful, something God must truly have influenced, this certainly stands in stark contrast. Yes we see players make mistakes. But we also see them in moments of genius. When MVP splits marines a grin creeps upon our face;when NesTea proxy spine crawlers we scream in amazement. Your post doesn't directly come out and say it, but it certainly does hint. You say your'e going to be called unpopular, that SC2 competition is a farce. Some people have said that the point of your thread is that SC2 will only get better when BW players come over. But I don't see that. All I see is a denouncement of Starcraft 2, and that truly disappoints me. lmfao You can't be serious. Holy. Shit. edit: My response is a couple posts up, if you'd like a brief summary of what the article is actually about.
Here, I'll respond to that.
On May 13 2011 04:07 cursor wrote:
I find this pretty funny. The OP is great, and true. And the funny thing is, hes talking about where players are, how much they practiced, where the money is at etc...
The OP is NOT about how SC2 sucks. Wow. In fact, it is a compliment to SC2 that Flash, Jaedong, Kal, Hydra would dominate SC2!!!! That is saying that it's similar enough to BroodWar to allow the skills to translate easily.
Think about it, if he was arguing that SC2 was a bad game or some shit, he would say that Flash's skills wouldn't matter- and some shit about MBS and Automine evening out the top tier skill dynamic. Making it so that someone like Cruncher would be able to go 3-4 with Flash almost all the time.
What he is saying is that the multitasking edge will help, the game DOES have a very deep skill dynamic, and that it will allow very talented players to continue to raise the bar.
Anyone who thinks this is about SC2 being far inferior to BW obviously didn't read the whole thing and get the context. Different games, but similar enough- especially in terms of skill dynamic.
He's talking about the competition, not the games itself. Obviously he's not commenting on balance, or of a skill cap. He's not talking about Multiple building selection or the 1 a syndrome that is plaguing SC2.
But he is comparing SC2 and BW, in saying that BW players are better, and that knowledge causes him to feel that SC2 is just...not as good.
On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
He calls SC2 competition a farce, and says that it's simply not as "good" as BW. Not comparing games, but the competition.
My problem is exactly that. The best games aren't always between those at the top. We can enjoy a game and still see mistakes people make. Take Hiya vs.(free?). Neither of them are S-Class players, but that game was one of the most epic BW games of all time. And Intrigue saying that SC2, as a whole, is simply not as good as BW disappoints me.
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On May 13 2011 03:48 Rinnegan5 wrote:
And it's not even about BW supremacy. Intrigue provides an objective argument that you guys fail to understand because of your own biases toward SC2. Take a second and think about it logically....It's a well-articulated piece that is worthy to be called the first final edit of SC2.
Right, let's look at this objectively. What's your point, Intrigue?
On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
What’s your point?
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
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And honestly, though this might get me flamed, I think it's good that there isn't a bonjwa level of players right now in SC2.
Personally, I like seeing lots of different players from around the world with wildly different playstyles. For the most part, White-Ra doesn't play anything like Adel-Scott who plays differently from Cruncher who isn't the same as MC. Respective skill levels non-withstanding, they all have insanely different styles and it's interesting to see different games within the same matchup.
I know "solved" games indeed become a measure of skill, which is technically more balanced, but there are times where those "solved" games become repetitive. Yes, it's indiciative of skill that you can perform the same build perfectly 10 times in a row and fend off another player doing the same build perfectly 10 times in a row, but at that point the games start to blend together.
Not saying BW is like this, but I'm just saying that I like how almost every SC2 match feels unique and different.
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On May 13 2011 04:06 Mordiford wrote:
That's not it though, he basically said the SC2 competition is a turd because there are 300 or so Brood War pros who could just pick up and shit all over the top SC2 players if they felt like it.
Yeah. After a few months latency for the BW players to adjust to SC2 and because the top BW players have a better work ethic than the top SC2 players.
The OP is comparing people, not games. So it's not apples to oranges. Especially when he can compare the performance of all those people in BW.
I re-read the OP, and I think I missed the point of the high school football analogy. (a:b::c:d)
skill of high school football players : skill of NFL players :: current SC2 pro-gaming events : hypothetical SC2 pro-gaming matches with top BW players
(I know he doesn't mention the NFL, so maybe I'm inferring too much.)
Basically, you can dress up the GSL SC2 players and make them out to be the best gamers ever to pick up a mouse, but they're actually just high school football players compared to the NFL-level skills of the BW pros.
FWIW, I never followed the BW pro leagues and have never seen a Flash or JaeDong game. I'm only trying to make a point about the argument(s) being had, and their relevancy to the OP.
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On May 13 2011 04:09 Pandain wrote:I'm sorry Intrigue, and I know this will sound a bit gruff, and possibly even rude. But know that this is truly the only thing I think I can say that can express what I feel. How dare you. How dare you, entrusted with the first SC2 Final Edit in history, write such an OP. How dare you come to the oasis of Starcraft lore and culture, the basin of ESPORTS, and write this. And how dare you do this, not only as a valued member of the community, but as a moderator, and write a Final Edit defaming our players with cries of BW supremacy. Yes we know that Flash and Jaedong are by far the better players than anyone in SC2. Yes we know if any of them switched they would dominate within a week. But to say that our competition is a farce, to say that the knowledge that "They could be better" cheapens the game, that's just something I can't agree with. And really you of all people should know better. Did the knowledge that miles away, hundreds of superior Koreans lay hammering at their keyboards cheapen TSL 1&2? No, it didn't + Show Spoiler +(why am I so good at answering rhethorical questions.) What you say is undeniably true. This article is extremely well written with a superb layout. This article was interesting to read, and made me think for a bit. Hell, even the graphics are better than most of my threads. But how dare you say that what we watch isn't art. For a community that prides itself on the knowledge that we have all discovered something beautiful, something God must truly have influenced, this certainly stands in stark contrast. Yes we see players make mistakes. But we also see them in moments of genius. When MVP splits marines a grin creeps upon our face;when NesTea proxy spine crawlers we scream in amazement. Your post doesn't directly come out and say it, but it certainly does hint. You say your'e going to be called unpopular, that SC2 competition is a farce. Some people have said that the point of your thread is that SC2 will only get better when BW players come over. But I don't see that. All I see is a denouncement of Starcraft 2, and that truly disappoints me.
It's not a denoucement of SC2 its a reality check for players and watchers of the real monster players that are waiting in the shadows to come and stomp and show you just where the current Top Korean's in SC2 stand in skill; they are the rejects of BW. The real monsters of BW will eventually start to come along and show you the pedistools you put current pro's on are just cardboard boxes, wet ones at that, but there are players who stand mountains above these players in every way.
The OP is also a call to arms.
The chance to get to the top and stay there with the advantage of playing a year shouldn't mean progress should stop.
Forgetting to creep spread, ovie spread, inject, scout even for a second? There are players who will do everything you know you should do but they will do it every time, even in every ladder game.
Your bunker rush works so often? What are you going to do when a hundred real pro's start laddering and are immune to every harass you can think off, all the while they are impecable with there macro/micro.
What are you going to do when your 150-250 apm stands against 300-400+ apm; every ladder game?
This OP is a call to arms, the false heros of today are made of glass, you know deep down they are beatable by so many players so badly and that they won't be remembered in another year or two's time, if ever again.
So get on ladder and start making clans and practice groups because 'they' 'are' coming and you got to improve a hell of a lot if you don't want to be crushed by them when they come.
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The skillcap of scbw are clearly higher than the sc2 one, so of course their pro are better, how ? sc2 pro will have harder time to go scbw i guess :p
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EPT
