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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On May 13 2011 03:56 Sandrosuperstar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:55 Synwave wrote:On May 13 2011 03:52 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:46 Boblion wrote:On May 13 2011 03:44 Kazius wrote:On May 13 2011 03:36 infinity2k9 wrote:On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:
[quote]
Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW  *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW. I played many RTS at the time and no infact they were not harder mechanically or strategically. And people DID suck at RTS at the time, just look at the early BW videos. 100+ APM could compete back then. People didn't understand the concepts of looking for 'macro builds' and trying how to do completely safe FE's, people didn't come into the game with 300 APM immediately trying to explore every option possible. No one could even play Terran properly for years cause it was difficult. The reason why BW metagame took so long to evolve was literally only because of mechanical difficultly. Defilers were not used for years because people simply did not have the multitasking to be able to handle so much at once effectively. No strategy is out of reach in Starcraft 2, for better or for worse. People can ,'access' lets say, any possibility; so inevitably things will be figured out much faster. Patching will be the main reason for changing strategies. You're not mentioning the fact that BW was heavily patched (up to and until the "nerf boxer" patch). 8 balance patch for Sc1+bw. last in 2001. Already 13 for Sc2 with two expansions coming lol. Stop to spread bullshit please. The number of balance patches is irrelevant, its about the number of changes. Go look at the patch log for BW. They tweaked MUCH more units and abilities per patch than in SC2. But my words are probably wasted on someone with "bw4life" in their sig :p And it still required outside map makers to make it even slightly balanced racially, don't forget that part. why is it bad to patch a game a lot?
its not, which is why im confused at Boblion's post.
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On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard.
This makes no sense to my understanding. To play at a high level you need to understand timing, know where to cut corners, and so forth. Therefore it's impossible to master until those timings have themselves been perfected. It doesn't matter how much experience you have in connex games, so long as these matchups haven't been refined yet.
You can see this in Brood War still. Hive tech ZvZ still plays at an anachronistic level because players haven't had years to play Hive tech ZvZ. This despite the fact that they've mastered ZvT, ZvP, and pre-Hive ZvZ. If your rule doesn't apply even within the scope of the same game, why do you think it should apply to a different game?
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Really well written article. I think some great points were made, but I feel like it's a bit of an invalid point that because there are people out there that could be better at this game, that the current competition is in any way less intense. If any of them switch over, great, but I'll wait for that to happen before I consider the possibility detrimental to my enjoyment whatsoever. And honestly, the last thing I want is a real bonjwa. SC2 is more exciting without knowing who's going to be in the top four or even top eight of the next GSL.
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On May 13 2011 03:57 hmmm... wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:48 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 13 2011 02:43 I)etox wrote:On May 13 2011 02:40 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 13 2011 02:38 stratmatt wrote:
as somebody who never followed the bw scene and only bothered to check it out after watching lots of sc2.... i hav to say that bw is BORING. its only appealing to people who have been following it since it was the only thing around. the truth is that the graphics are terrible, the units look dinky, and the micro looks redundant and tedious. sc2 is way more entertaining to newcomers and pretty much just more fun to watch through and through. seriously, bw graphics are SO BAD. imo posts like this are much worse than the OP Yep. But man he's got a point, I really like collosus micro as opposed to dropship + reaver micro. Watching collosus move back and forth is way more exciting. O_O I am amazed,but your argument is slightly better than this,but....... i'm fairly sure he was being sarcastic. lol
I was 
I replied but I guess it got buried in there. Here it is.
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On May 13 2011 03:50 Maliris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:36 infinity2k9 wrote:On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW. I played many RTS at the time and no infact they were not harder mechanically or strategically. And people DID suck at RTS at the time, just look at the early BW videos. 100+ APM could compete back then. People didn't understand the concepts of looking for 'macro builds' and trying how to do completely safe FE's This right here shows you don't understand why macro builds were poor back then. Just look at the maps. Try FEing on pre-Luna maps. There is a lot of ignorance being displayed right here. Amazing how people have the audacity to say some of the first progamers were scrubs and clueless when they don't even understand the gameplay at a fundamental level  And WC2 was definitely mechanically harder. No rally points, no controlgroups, just mass clicking.
I tend to think along the lines of WC2 -> SC -> SC2 -> as a bell curve of skill, with SC being the apex of it. There is simply way more "skillful" things you can do with the inclusion of control groups and other mechanics that created more a lot of challenging ways to play the game.
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On May 13 2011 03:58 Maliris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:56 Sandrosuperstar wrote:On May 13 2011 03:55 Synwave wrote:On May 13 2011 03:52 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:46 Boblion wrote:On May 13 2011 03:44 Kazius wrote:On May 13 2011 03:36 infinity2k9 wrote:On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:
[quote]
Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW. I played many RTS at the time and no infact they were not harder mechanically or strategically. And people DID suck at RTS at the time, just look at the early BW videos. 100+ APM could compete back then. People didn't understand the concepts of looking for 'macro builds' and trying how to do completely safe FE's, people didn't come into the game with 300 APM immediately trying to explore every option possible. No one could even play Terran properly for years cause it was difficult. The reason why BW metagame took so long to evolve was literally only because of mechanical difficultly. Defilers were not used for years because people simply did not have the multitasking to be able to handle so much at once effectively. No strategy is out of reach in Starcraft 2, for better or for worse. People can ,'access' lets say, any possibility; so inevitably things will be figured out much faster. Patching will be the main reason for changing strategies. You're not mentioning the fact that BW was heavily patched (up to and until the "nerf boxer" patch). 8 balance patch for Sc1+bw. last in 2001. Already 13 for Sc2 with two expansions coming lol. Stop to spread bullshit please. The number of balance patches is irrelevant, its about the number of changes. Go look at the patch log for BW. They tweaked MUCH more units and abilities per patch than in SC2. But my words are probably wasted on someone with "bw4life" in their sig :p And it still required outside map makers to make it even slightly balanced racially, don't forget that part. why is it bad to patch a game a lot? its not, which is why im confused at Boblion's post.
You focused on patching
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Times have changed though over 10 years the internet has grown with twitter youtube all these other social media sites help even out the playing field for foreigners as well in my opinion. There is a lot more information for everyone to get a hold of and much more interest in SC2 than there was for SC1 i think. In the end I still think work ethic has lots to do with how good someone can be. Talent obviously is a factor as well.
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A question to anyone who knows anything about this:
Do non S-Class BW players receive more or less money than the non- S-Class players in SC2?
Are the salaries for your average B-teamers and lower level team mates more or less than those offered to the lower tier sc2 players?
I'm just tired of reading that the less-skilled BW players receive next to nothing in pay, as if thats an argument for why SC2 players should have a more dedicated practice regiment. If thats the situation for the established pro game in Korea, I don't know for sure, but I'd bet my mustache that its worse off for sc2 players.
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I totally agree with this article, even though it is partly irrelevant.
The game is still evolving, just like every other game that's still fairly new. You can't blame the 'best' players to not play a perfect game. How can a player like MC get any better when there's nobody that pushes him passed his current limits?
If Flash switches to SC2 he won't have his same perfect play either. I do believe he will triumph in this game as well and be one of the most fearful opponents to play, but he's not going to be an unbeatable monster.
A great example was last weeks Thorzain vs Kas. The two best foreign Terrans out there right now, and definitely with the top 10 of the world. Their games were awesome and so exciting with the games going back and forth a lot... The main reason for the games going back and forth however was because both players have their flaws. A couple micro mistakes, sloppy macro, a few not so smart decisions, etc.
This will all improve with age. Will foreigners be at the short end of the stick once again? I don't think so. There are a lot of foreigners with the same talent the top koreans have, and with the current development of eSports they have the opportunity to grow with the game at the same pace the Korean community does.
When 2 players have an equal amount of talent, it'll come down to who has the best discipline, who has the best practice environment, who has the best training attitude, etc. Foreigners have the opportunity to be a real successful progamer in SC2, which they never really had in SC1.
With all that being said, I can't wait for Flash & Jaedong to move on to SC2! + Show Spoiler +& SaviOr too lol - no hatin' !
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http://www.sk-gaming.com/video/337221-MC_1on1_13_Flash_can_definitely_do_well_in_SC2
if MC is not worried about Flash attempting to play his game... why are we worried? The best players in SC2 played the beta. There is so threat of BW players switching and being good at SC2. The only fact is that SC2 players are good at SC2... if BW players want to become SC2 players, well they have a long road ahead of them... and gl hf.
But there is no farce in the current level of SC2 competition, what a miss in understanding. The best SC2 players are the best SC2 players! BW players are not SC2 players or they would play both or they would be SC2 players... but they aren't. And wont be anytime soon... invite them lol, I would love to see Idra and MC destroy Bisu and Flash!
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The only worthwhile point from that article was that SC2 doesn't have any real "Bonjwa/Code S" players yet. So what? How could Intrigue expect the game to already be solved, so to speak? SC2 has a much longer life-span in store than that. Saying that most of the top SC2 players couldn't make it in Brood War proves nothing other than that you're bad at making comparisons. Just speak in a bombastic tone and you'll get mindless hordes to agree with you.
Flash and JaeDong do have a spark of immense talent. But that Bonjwavity can't be so dominating in SC2 when it's a much more open field with everyone learning the game!
Peewee leagues, SC2 is not. If you feel that way, then I suggest you stick to BW.
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Wow, great read. I had no idea, really made me see things differently.
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On May 13 2011 03:48 OldBamboo wrote:After I read the OP, I came away understanding the author's argument as this: Show nested quote +The best players are still in BW. If/when they switch to SC2, they'll trash the current top players, specifically because Flash/JD/etc. have a better work ethic and more straight-up talent. As I read the comments, all I see are people comparing the merits of BW, SC2 and other RTS games. To me, it seems like everyone is missing the point. The conversation has degraded into BW vs. SC2 fanboyism. Also: The h.s. football analogy was quite apt. It's a straight up "a:b :: c:d" comparison. High school football is to the national football league as oGsMC* is to Flash**just for instance; fill-in your SC2 and BW pros here as you will.
That's not it though, he basically said the SC2 competition is a turd because there are 300 or so Brood War pros who could just pick up and shit all over the top SC2 players if they felt like it.
It's not as simple a comparison as High School Football and the NFL because it's not the same fucking game. It's a lot more like comparing the NFL and the some emerging Pro Rugby League, sure some mediocre NFL players may join the Pro Rugby League and do well, but some mediocre and some better stat'd NFL players also joined the Pro Rugby League and did poorly. The absolute top 3-4 players of the NFL would likely wreck shit in the Pro Rugby League but not every decent player from the NFL could just walk over and trash everyone in the Pro Rugby League at Rugby. The Pro Rugby League is developing it's talent at the same, the next big thing could be coming from someone who had never even tried out for the NFL and there are already tons of people in the Pro Rugby League that never really tried out for the NFL or played Football at all.
It's not the same fucking game, it just has a close set of skill requirements carrying over, there will be new skilled players born within the game.
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I find this pretty funny. The OP is great, and true. And the funny thing is, hes talking about where players are, how much they practiced, where the money is at etc...
The OP is NOT about how SC2 sucks. Wow. In fact, it is a compliment to SC2 that Flash, Jaedong, Kal, Hydra would dominate SC2!!!! That is saying that it's similar enough to BroodWar to allow the skills to translate easily.
Think about it, if he was arguing that SC2 was a bad game or some shit, he would say that Flash's skills wouldn't matter- and some shit about MBS and Automine evening out the top tier skill dynamic. Making it so that someone like Cruncher would be able to go 3-4 with Flash almost all the time.
What he is saying is that the multitasking edge will help, the game DOES have a very deep skill dynamic, and that it will allow very talented players to continue to raise the bar.
Anyone who thinks this is about SC2 being far inferior to BW obviously didn't read the whole thing and get the context. Different games, but similar enough- especially in terms of skill dynamic.
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I lilke your response nefarious agree 100%.
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On May 13 2011 03:52 Maliris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:46 Boblion wrote:On May 13 2011 03:44 Kazius wrote:On May 13 2011 03:36 infinity2k9 wrote:On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:
[quote]
You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players.
On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW. I played many RTS at the time and no infact they were not harder mechanically or strategically. And people DID suck at RTS at the time, just look at the early BW videos. 100+ APM could compete back then. People didn't understand the concepts of looking for 'macro builds' and trying how to do completely safe FE's, people didn't come into the game with 300 APM immediately trying to explore every option possible. No one could even play Terran properly for years cause it was difficult. The reason why BW metagame took so long to evolve was literally only because of mechanical difficultly. Defilers were not used for years because people simply did not have the multitasking to be able to handle so much at once effectively. No strategy is out of reach in Starcraft 2, for better or for worse. People can ,'access' lets say, any possibility; so inevitably things will be figured out much faster. Patching will be the main reason for changing strategies. You're not mentioning the fact that BW was heavily patched (up to and until the "nerf boxer" patch). 8 balance patch for Sc1+bw. last in 2001. Already 13 for Sc2 with two expansions coming lol. Stop to spread bullshit please. The number of balance patches is irrelevant, its about the number of changes. Go look at the patch log for BW. They tweaked MUCH more units and abilities per patch than in SC2. But my words are probably wasted on someone with "bw4life" in their sig :p
You are the one missing the point. What i mean is that Blizzard will be constantly changing the balance of the game ( something really bad ) whereas in broodwar it was over after a couple of patches and the balance hasn't changed since, only the maps.
Also Sc2 had already some HUGE tweaks too. No rax first before supply ? Reaper nerf ? Double warp gate nerf ? Should i also mention the numerous roach changes ?
Thing is for Sc1 it was over after 8 patches. With Sc2 it will last at least until the release of legacy of the void.
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W00t it's passed 100 pages, ah joy!
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amazing article and i completely agree with the author
It really doesnt matter that Flash and Jaedong have broodwar experience what matters is that their mindset and ability to play that many games and learn from them is much different from each and every "sc2 pro gamer".
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I'm sorry Intrigue, and I know this will sound a bit gruff, and possibly even rude. But know that this is truly the only thing I think I can say that can express what I feel.
How dare you.
How dare you, entrusted with the first SC2 Final Edit in history, write such an OP.
How dare you come to the oasis of Starcraft lore and culture, the basin of ESPORTS, and write this.
And how dare you do this, not only as a valued member of the community, but as a moderator, and write a Final Edit defaming our players with cries of BW supremacy.
Yes we know that Flash and Jaedong are by far the better players than anyone in SC2. Yes we know if any of them switched they would dominate within a week. But to say that our competition is a farce, to say that the knowledge that "They could be better" cheapens the game, that's just something I can't agree with. And really you of all people should know better.
Did the knowledge that miles away, hundreds of superior Koreans lay hammering at their keyboards cheapen TSL 1&2? No, it didn't+ Show Spoiler +(why am I so good at answering rhethorical questions.)
What you say is undeniably true. This article is extremely well written with a superb layout. This article was interesting to read, and made me think for a bit. Hell, even the graphics are better than most of my threads.
But how dare you say that what we watch isn't art. For a community that prides itself on the knowledge that we have all discovered something beautiful, something God must truly have influenced, this certainly stands in stark contrast. Yes we see players make mistakes. But we also see them in moments of genius. When MVP splits marines a grin creeps upon our face;when NesTea proxy spine crawlers we scream in amazement.
Your post doesn't directly come out and say it, but it certainly does hint. You say your'e going to be called unpopular, that SC2 competition is a farce. Some people have said that the point of your thread is that SC2 will only get better when BW players come over.
But I don't see that. All I see is a denouncement of Starcraft 2, and that truly disappoints me.
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EPT
