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Calgary26003 Posts
On May 13 2011 04:23 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:48 Rinnegan5 wrote:
And it's not even about BW supremacy. Intrigue provides an objective argument that you guys fail to understand because of your own biases toward SC2. Take a second and think about it logically....It's a well-articulated piece that is worthy to be called the first final edit of SC2. Right, let's look at this objectively. What's your point, Intrigue? Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
What’s your point?
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
I think that's a pretty stupid conclusion. How could you ever enjoy anything in your life knowing you're not watching the absolute best?
Edit: That's not even correct. You are watching the best, but not the highest potential. That makes it even harder to enjoy anything in life. Wow that play was amazing but was it the absolute best possible play. Surely not.
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Comparing BW and SC2 and writing things like "if Flash and Jaedong played SC1 they'd be SO GOOD" is pointless. Until they start playing SC2, they are not good SC2 players.
You should try to be a fan of the actual player and what he is actually doing, not the fantasy image of some Starcraft-Superman some seem to have in their mind.
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Excellent article, intrigue sir. It is well written and informative.
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On May 13 2011 04:20 Jyvblamo wrote:
Well, you can also quote the results of players like MVP or Moon who switched to SC2 relatively late and have done way better than Grubby.
That's his whole point... that it isn't a guarantee previous RTS experience transfers over. Not that every player from another game will fail.
Edit: Also, Chill brings up a good point a few posts above. Do you only watch the Superbowl and Champions League Finals? I doubt you watch every game and think "Well if BARCA was in this game they'd be dominating."
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On May 13 2011 04:09 Pandain wrote:I'm sorry Intrigue, and I know this will sound a bit gruff, and possibly even rude. But know that this is truly the only thing I think I can say that can express what I feel. How dare you. How dare you, entrusted with the first SC2 Final Edit in history, write such an OP. How dare you come to the oasis of Starcraft lore and culture, the basin of ESPORTS, and write this. And how dare you do this, not only as a valued member of the community, but as a moderator, and write a Final Edit defaming our players with cries of BW supremacy. Yes we know that Flash and Jaedong are by far the better players than anyone in SC2. Yes we know if any of them switched they would dominate within a week. But to say that our competition is a farce, to say that the knowledge that "They could be better" cheapens the game, that's just something I can't agree with. And really you of all people should know better. Did the knowledge that miles away, hundreds of superior Koreans lay hammering at their keyboards cheapen TSL 1&2? No, it didn't + Show Spoiler +(why am I so good at answering rhethorical questions.) What you say is undeniably true. This article is extremely well written with a superb layout. This article was interesting to read, and made me think for a bit. Hell, even the graphics are better than most of my threads. But how dare you say that what we watch isn't art. For a community that prides itself on the knowledge that we have all discovered something beautiful, something God must truly have influenced, this certainly stands in stark contrast. Yes we see players make mistakes. But we also see them in moments of genius. When MVP splits marines a grin creeps upon our face;when NesTea proxy spine crawlers we scream in amazement. Your post doesn't directly come out and say it, but it certainly does hint. You say your'e going to be called unpopular, that SC2 competition is a farce. Some people have said that the point of your thread is that SC2 will only get better when BW players come over. But I don't see that. All I see is a denouncement of Starcraft 2, and that truly disappoints me.
Thank you, i was sitting a long time trying to find a good way to respond so i started reading the rest of the replies. but this underscores my exact sentiments regarding the OP.
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thank you for reposting that Chill. Intrigue's point was dumber than i thought. Nevertheless it should be intersting to see BW pros come into SC2
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On May 13 2011 03:15 fant0m wrote:
Comparing SC2 to high school football is pretty dumb. For one, no one older than 17 finds high school football exciting. And even then only your own school seemed exciting.
I would compare SC2 to CS: source, where SC1 is CS 1.6. There's a rabid fan base that considers source (SC2) to be noobish and not as competitive as what came before. However, the masses will speak up and the tournaments and prize money will dwindle. SC1 may limp on for years like CS has done, but the rest of the world will move on.
And one day BW is going to be left with nothing, while everyone else is enjoying the updated graphics and mechanics of SC2.
So long as I enjoy what I'm watching, I don't really care if Mvp and NesTea sucked at 12 unit groups and individual building selection.
That's a terrible analogy. 1.6 has continued growing bigger while source never had much of a fanbase in the first place.
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On May 13 2011 04:28 Artimo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 04:09 Pandain wrote:I'm sorry Intrigue, and I know this will sound a bit gruff, and possibly even rude. But know that this is truly the only thing I think I can say that can express what I feel. How dare you. How dare you, entrusted with the first SC2 Final Edit in history, write such an OP. How dare you come to the oasis of Starcraft lore and culture, the basin of ESPORTS, and write this. And how dare you do this, not only as a valued member of the community, but as a moderator, and write a Final Edit defaming our players with cries of BW supremacy. Yes we know that Flash and Jaedong are by far the better players than anyone in SC2. Yes we know if any of them switched they would dominate within a week. But to say that our competition is a farce, to say that the knowledge that "They could be better" cheapens the game, that's just something I can't agree with. And really you of all people should know better. Did the knowledge that miles away, hundreds of superior Koreans lay hammering at their keyboards cheapen TSL 1&2? No, it didn't + Show Spoiler +(why am I so good at answering rhethorical questions.) What you say is undeniably true. This article is extremely well written with a superb layout. This article was interesting to read, and made me think for a bit. Hell, even the graphics are better than most of my threads. But how dare you say that what we watch isn't art. For a community that prides itself on the knowledge that we have all discovered something beautiful, something God must truly have influenced, this certainly stands in stark contrast. Yes we see players make mistakes. But we also see them in moments of genius. When MVP splits marines a grin creeps upon our face;when NesTea proxy spine crawlers we scream in amazement. Your post doesn't directly come out and say it, but it certainly does hint. You say your'e going to be called unpopular, that SC2 competition is a farce. Some people have said that the point of your thread is that SC2 will only get better when BW players come over. But I don't see that. All I see is a denouncement of Starcraft 2, and that truly disappoints me. Thank you, i was sitting a long time trying to find a good way to respond so i started reading the rest of the replies. but this underscores my exact sentiments regarding the OP.
You guys gotta be trolling. Show me where he says that SC2 isn't an art?
Isn't it a compliment to say that Flash and Jaedong would own face at SC2 because there is so much more left to be done, and their immense skills would shine in the game? He didn't say the game is trash or something and that skill doesn't matter.
I fail to understand how so many people could completely misinterpret the article.
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On May 13 2011 04:25 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 04:23 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On May 13 2011 03:48 Rinnegan5 wrote:
And it's not even about BW supremacy. Intrigue provides an objective argument that you guys fail to understand because of your own biases toward SC2. Take a second and think about it logically....It's a well-articulated piece that is worthy to be called the first final edit of SC2. Right, let's look at this objectively. What's your point, Intrigue? On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
What’s your point?
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
I think that's a pretty stupid conclusion. How could you ever enjoy anything in your life knowing you're not watching the absolute best?
Not to be cliche and just agree with Chill, but yeah, he's right. I enjoy the heck out of SC2. Could Flash and JD come over and dominate? Yeah, without a doubt. Does that make any match right now less enjoyable? Not by a long shot. I mean heck, I watch TotalBiscut play, and I find myself screaming at the screen when he plays bad, but he's fun as crap to watch.
Point being, enjoy things because you enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it, don't tell other people they're dumb for enjoying it themselves. It makes you elitist and condescending, and you don't want to be that guy, especially when you're put on the front page of a well-respected site like TL.
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Netherlands642 Posts
A real nice read although i see a little bit of a elitist point of view. This is the current situation we have in the game, and maybe we can predict the future a little bit by previous achievements, however this remains invalid until proven otherwise.
If they are so immense, godly, let them show us!
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Even though I'm a BW fanboy and I agree with the article for the most part, there is something I want to state in defense of the former-BW progamers who've switched to SC2. I think a big factor, apart from skill, is having the determination to put in the hard work that is needed and the mental fortitude to win at the big stage when they finally get the chance. B-teamers have to go through months and months of brutal training and practice, giving up everything else in the process, just in the hope that maybe, one day, they'll get a chance to play in the proleague. Imagine you finally get the chance and you're matched up against Flash or Jaedong who proceed to destroy you in the most humiliating and demoralizing fashion possible. This is enough to crush most people's spirits. A complete lack of success can have a very negative impact on a player's determination and confidence and consequently, their ability to put in the hard work that is necessary to rise back up. On the other hand, a few good performance can do wonders to a player's confidence and suddenly, he might start practicing and improving like never before. It is very like that the success that players like MC and MVP have had in SC2 has had a hugely positive influence in restoring their self-belief compared to their largely disappointing and discouraging BW career. In that regard, I think that even if Flash or Jaedong switched, these former BW-players would no longer have that psychological disadvantage and that can make a big difference in their performance.
Although I still don't think it's going to be enough to overcome the sheer skill, game sense and work ethics of an S-class BW progamer. 
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On May 13 2011 04:28 Faveokatro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 04:20 Jyvblamo wrote:
Well, you can also quote the results of players like MVP or Moon who switched to SC2 relatively late and have done way better than Grubby. That's his whole point... that it isn't a guarantee previous RTS experience transfers over. Not that every player from another game will fail.
I thought this was his point:
The reason he's been doing so poorly, in my opinion, is that he hasn't been playing the game as long as people who are taking down these tournaments. As for the longevity of SC2, top BW pros will probably outstrip the current tip-top players, but this won't happen for a long time.
He's saying that it takes a long time for someone to get to the top level of SC2, even if they were previously a top player from a different game.
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Great article, but I must be missing something. Who cares if these guys come over to SC2 and are godlike. Thats great for all viewers. If its also true that the SC2 teams are not really training hard, like some SC1 people are saying, then just imagine the games that we are going to see when the teams start working hard.
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This whole argument is fucking pointless, and needlessly brought up in this fashion.
Do viewers enjoy SC2 as much, or more, than BW? We can ask people, take polls, and count viewers and see what he answer is and then report. As for whether or not SC2 competition is a "farce" or not, who the fuck cares what will be happening in 12 months-2 years or whatever as long as we don't think the game is dying (and it isn't).
SC2 is headed in the right direction, and that is all that matters. This stupid idea that it isn't far enough along the trajectory or being socially accepted and a recipient of all of the incumbent advantages that BW now possesses after 12 years is stupid.
Imagine if I started berating the cell phone in the 90's for not having the crystal clear connection of a land lines (a 100 year old technology) , it seems like a good argument then but a decade later (or rather, in 1/10th the time) cell phones VASTLY outnumber land lines and add a whole new level of functionality and accessibility than a land line could ever have been even imagined to fulfill.
Why the unnecessary drawing of lines in the sand, when it isn't like SC2 fans are bashing or even denying that BW players are amazing. We're enjoying (or not) the current state of the game, and the realm of SC2 esports is growing exponentially. Why cant that just make you happy instead of creating a 10,000 word post about how much everyone's time is wasted watching SC2 at this stage in its development? I certainly get plenty out of it, and I know the vast majority of users here do also.
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On May 13 2011 04:24 OldBamboo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 04:06 Mordiford wrote:
That's not it though, he basically said the SC2 competition is a turd because there are 300 or so Brood War pros who could just pick up and shit all over the top SC2 players if they felt like it. Yeah. After a few months latency for the BW players to adjust to SC2 and because the top BW players have a better work ethic than the top SC2 players. The OP is comparing people, not games. So it's not apples to oranges. Especially when he can compare the performance of all those people in BW. I re-read the OP, and I think I missed the point of the high school football analogy. (a:b::c:d) skill of high school football players : skill of NFL players :: current SC2 pro-gaming events : hypothetical SC2 pro-gaming matches with top BW players(I know he doesn't mention the NFL, so maybe I'm inferring too much.) Basically, you can dress up the GSL SC2 players and make them out to be the best gamers ever to pick up a mouse, but they're actually just high school football players compared to the NFL-level skills of the BW pros. FWIW, I never followed the BW pro leagues and have never seen a Flash or JaeDong game. I'm only trying to make a point about the argument(s) being had, and their relevancy to the OP.
But there was a disparity between BW pros already in terms of skill, some players are just genuinely more skilled at the game. I'm not understanding your point... That BW pros would destroy the SC2 pros because they approach the game more seriously? That's just insulting to the SC2 players once more, I don't see where this is going...
The current SC2 players have widely varying levels of practice, but clearly the ones who try hard are the ones who are still doing well, it's not like the top players in SC2 have terrible practice but are doing well because everyone is bad. Everyone is growing, people will have to put in more practice as the next generation emerges within SC2 and starts giving them a run for their money just like Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu etc did for BW.
This doesn't mean that the players from BW would just come over and shit all over the SC2 pros.
The comparison doesn't work regardless because it's saying that the game is irrelevant because the players were better and that's what's being compared, well we don't really know what the work ethic for SC2 is like at the top, but there are pro houses and practice hours are said to be fairly high, so I don't see where this assumption is even coming from.
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He is complimenting Starcraft 2 as a game, and making a point about the player pool. HENCE- the unrealized potential of the game.
You. Damn. Fools.
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On May 13 2011 04:31 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 04:25 Chill wrote:On May 13 2011 04:23 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On May 13 2011 03:48 Rinnegan5 wrote:
And it's not even about BW supremacy. Intrigue provides an objective argument that you guys fail to understand because of your own biases toward SC2. Take a second and think about it logically....It's a well-articulated piece that is worthy to be called the first final edit of SC2. Right, let's look at this objectively. What's your point, Intrigue? On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
What’s your point?
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
I think that's a pretty stupid conclusion. How could you ever enjoy anything in your life knowing you're not watching the absolute best? Not to be cliche and just agree with Chill, but yeah, he's right. I enjoy the heck out of SC2. Could Flash and JD come over and dominate? Yeah, without a doubt. Does that make any match right now less enjoyable? Not by a long shot. I mean heck, I watch TotalBiscut play, and I find myself screaming at the screen when he plays bad, but he's fun as crap to watch. Point being, enjoy things because you enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it, don't tell other people they're dumb for enjoying it themselves. It makes you elitist and condescending, and you don't want to be that guy, especially when you're put on the front page of a well-respected site like TL.
Glad to know Im not the only one that yells at TB when he plays and has a total blast doing it.
I have no problem with the articles points and agree with most of them (except the biased statistics bit) its just the tone is rude in the extreme. If he doesn't want to watch anything less than the world cup/olympics/SC:BW thats fine with me, to each his own! However I don't see the need to write an article defending that position of spectatorship specifically in a elitist inflammatory way.
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On May 13 2011 03:46 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 03:44 Kazius wrote:On May 13 2011 03:36 infinity2k9 wrote:On May 13 2011 03:29 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 03:26 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:24 Vendor wrote:On May 13 2011 03:21 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:18 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 03:15 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 03:09 Dakorok wrote:
It's an interesting take, but I maintain that SC2 is a fresh, new game. The metagame is nowhere near as defined as it was in Brood War yet. You can't compare the development stage of SC2 to BW. When BW just came out, nobody knows how to play RTS. Even Boxer did not have a good idea about how to play RTS compared to today's players. On the other hand, the people who plays SC2 now knows everything about RTS, they should be able to play SC2 to the current BW level within one year if there were no patches from Blizzard. This is very ignorant. Some of the best BW players were WC2 players back in the day. Back when BW was a fresh new game. Geez, you think I do not know those games? Ages of Empires, red alert, WC2, I played all of them 10 years ago. they were never professional games. How can you compare? Because playing those games even for fun gives you a fundamental idea of how to play RTS at even the most basic level. You don't need to do something professionally to get good at it. This goes in to saying no one knew how to play RTS games before BW which is false. Indeed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW was not always this hardcore RTS for god's of gaming. Saying no one knew how to play RTS when BW was released is silly. Shhh don't tell them that RTSs existed before BW. They might find out that those games were even harder mechanically than BW  *Not bashing on BW players, but I am getting tired of the argument that all RTS knowledge originated from BW. I played many RTS at the time and no infact they were not harder mechanically or strategically. And people DID suck at RTS at the time, just look at the early BW videos. 100+ APM could compete back then. People didn't understand the concepts of looking for 'macro builds' and trying how to do completely safe FE's, people didn't come into the game with 300 APM immediately trying to explore every option possible. No one could even play Terran properly for years cause it was difficult. The reason why BW metagame took so long to evolve was literally only because of mechanical difficultly. Defilers were not used for years because people simply did not have the multitasking to be able to handle so much at once effectively. No strategy is out of reach in Starcraft 2, for better or for worse. People can ,'access' lets say, any possibility; so inevitably things will be figured out much faster. Patching will be the main reason for changing strategies. You're not mentioning the fact that BW was heavily patched (up to and until the "nerf boxer" patch). 8 balance patch for Sc1+bw. last in 2001. Already 13 for Sc2 with two expansions coming lol. Stop to spread bullshit please.
Not comparable in numbers, SC1 patches were WAY bigger than SC2 ones, and SC2 has more of them.
The game was "patched" through maps after 2001, too. Luna was a nerf to Nada
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On May 13 2011 04:28 Artimo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 04:09 Pandain wrote:I'm sorry Intrigue, and I know this will sound a bit gruff, and possibly even rude. But know that this is truly the only thing I think I can say that can express what I feel. How dare you. How dare you, entrusted with the first SC2 Final Edit in history, write such an OP. How dare you come to the oasis of Starcraft lore and culture, the basin of ESPORTS, and write this. And how dare you do this, not only as a valued member of the community, but as a moderator, and write a Final Edit defaming our players with cries of BW supremacy. Yes we know that Flash and Jaedong are by far the better players than anyone in SC2. Yes we know if any of them switched they would dominate within a week. But to say that our competition is a farce, to say that the knowledge that "They could be better" cheapens the game, that's just something I can't agree with. And really you of all people should know better. Did the knowledge that miles away, hundreds of superior Koreans lay hammering at their keyboards cheapen TSL 1&2? No, it didn't + Show Spoiler +(why am I so good at answering rhethorical questions.) What you say is undeniably true. This article is extremely well written with a superb layout. This article was interesting to read, and made me think for a bit. Hell, even the graphics are better than most of my threads. But how dare you say that what we watch isn't art. For a community that prides itself on the knowledge that we have all discovered something beautiful, something God must truly have influenced, this certainly stands in stark contrast. Yes we see players make mistakes. But we also see them in moments of genius. When MVP splits marines a grin creeps upon our face;when NesTea proxy spine crawlers we scream in amazement. Your post doesn't directly come out and say it, but it certainly does hint. You say your'e going to be called unpopular, that SC2 competition is a farce. Some people have said that the point of your thread is that SC2 will only get better when BW players come over. But I don't see that. All I see is a denouncement of Starcraft 2, and that truly disappoints me. Thank you, i was sitting a long time trying to find a good way to respond so i started reading the rest of the replies. but this underscores my exact sentiments regarding the OP.
Just throwing in my support for Pandain here. I was pretty disappointed in this article. There wasn't even an elephant in the room. An elephant would imply people don't throw this information around in almost every debate thread. We know top bw players have a level of skill unseen. Would it transfer to SC2? Yes, but we don't really know to what degree. Most people switching from bw said sc2 isn't as demanding and doesn't reward the same skills. So now what?
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