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On February 19 2012 08:59 Nightshade_ wrote:
Good lord this thread hasn't been locked yet?
TL;DR
BW Diehards: good people only still play BW. People who switched over are only bad because they weren't relevant pros. People who are dominating only are because relevant pros haven't switched.
So essentially BW pros are saying Boxer is an irrelevant BW pro.
SC2 Diehards: BW pros aren't going to dominate SC2 because it is a different game and harder in different ways.
Essentially SC2 players are defending the game they like using logic.
If you are going to try and represent the arguments, at least get them right.
At the time of switching, Boxer was an irrelevant BW pro, as far as skill level was concerned. Which is the argument.
Also, don't try to sum up an entire thread in 6 sentences. It won't work.
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What is the point of this thread anymore? Big surprise, the people who have competitive experience or have been pros in BW are really successful at the game's highly similar successor... No shit. Or was it the same people that said that SC2 is nothing like BW, just a pile of automated shit with no advantage for the skilled player and no competitive potential? No,no it can't be because they are saying that the players who have been practicing BW hardcore for years would tare the scene if they did the same for this game (wow who would have thought). So... so they are actually saying now that StarCraft II is exactly as good of a game as StarCraft: Brood War?! Why, thank you! Thank you very much!
In the recent two years a majority of the foreigner BW fanbase, the people who crashed TL multiple times while flooding to watch TSL2 and the triumph of Liquid'Nony (Tyler Wasieleski), embraced the long overdue sequel SC2: WOL and are the primary reason for it's rise to success. Over the last year we have seen an unprecedented collaboration between different competitive gaming communities in order to stabilize esports. As a long-time BW fan and a positive SC2 enthusiast I am baffled by the fact that nowadays the purist part of the same previously-mentioned community has been the biggest attacker against WOL.
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On February 19 2012 08:59 Nightshade_ wrote:
Good lord this thread hasn't been locked yet?
TL;DR
BW Diehards: good people only still play BW. People who switched over are only bad because they weren't relevant pros. People who are dominating only are because relevant pros haven't switched.
So essentially BW pros are saying Boxer is an irrelevant BW pro.
SC2 Diehards: BW pros aren't going to dominate SC2 because it is a different game and harder in different ways.
Essentially SC2 players are defending the game they like using logic.
Boxer was irrelevant in that he wasn't competetive anymore. And that is simply a fact. Boxer will of course never be irrelevant because he is God. People who don't understand these two points probably don't even know what it is that makes Boxer so special.
And when it comes to logic, everybody who understands logic, would of course know that the conclusion of the SC2 diehards does not follow from that premise. So perhaps they are using logic but they are not very good at it and end up being illogical.
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On February 19 2012 08:59 Nightshade_ wrote:
Good lord this thread hasn't been locked yet?
TL;DR
BW Diehards: good people only still play BW. People who switched over are only bad because they weren't relevant pros. People who are dominating only are because relevant pros haven't switched.
So essentially BW pros are saying Boxer is an irrelevant BW pro.
SC2 Diehards: BW pros aren't going to dominate SC2 because it is a different game and harder in different ways.
Essentially SC2 players are defending the game they like using logic.
At the time Boxer WAS irrelevant insofar as actually playtime, and in game use to SKT1 were concerned. Outside of map/player specific strategies he could cook up, he wasn't really bringing anything new to the game in a larger sense.
As for the rest of what you're saying, I'm not jumping on that particular dog pile 
EDIT: jeez, everyone slammed this post.
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On February 19 2012 08:59 Nightshade_ wrote:
Good lord this thread hasn't been locked yet?
.
A mod bumped this threat back when it was forgotten, there is no way this will be locked.
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On February 19 2012 09:11 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 08:59 Nightshade_ wrote:
Good lord this thread hasn't been locked yet?
. A mod bumped this threat back when it was forgotten, there is no way this will be locked.
Nice Freudian slip there kekeke XD.
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They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion.
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All the best foreigners are still former WC3 or BW players, there's not yet really a new generation of players to surpass their level of play - so much for the new generation always being better, but perhaps it will happen in a few more years. And when that happens, maybe the higher amount of exposure SC2 has compared to BW/WC3 and the greater acceptance of e-sports will let foreigners compete more with South Korea. The current Brood War pros are very good too, but I don't know if it really attracts new players still. I suppose it might, but I would still imagine it's a lot less than at its hayday. And with age a lot of the current generation of pros will retire and perhaps the influx of new talent in Korea will not be as good as the foreigner ones. Then there wouldn't really be an elephant, it'd be something that exists now, but would go away with time.
I guess it's fun to speculate, but that's all guesswork.
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Poll: How many GSL would Flash have to play before he won?He'd never win (11) 41% One (10) 37% Two (3) 11% 3-5 (2) 7% 6-10 (1) 4% 27 total votes Your vote: How many GSL would Flash have to play before he won? (Vote): One
(Vote): Two
(Vote): 3-5
(Vote): 6-10
(Vote): He'd never win
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On February 19 2012 09:30 dsousa wrote:Poll: How many GSL would Flash have to play before he won?He'd never win (11) 41% One (10) 37% Two (3) 11% 3-5 (2) 7% 6-10 (1) 4% 27 total votes Your vote: How many GSL would Flash have to play before he won? (Vote): One
(Vote): Two
(Vote): 3-5
(Vote): 6-10
(Vote): He'd never win
Irrelevant poll. No mention of prior practice time.
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On February 19 2012 09:22 Grumbels wrote:
All the best foreigners are still former WC3 or BW players, there's not yet really a new generation of players to surpass their level of play - so much for the new generation always being better, but perhaps it will happen in a few more years. And when that happens, maybe the higher amount of exposure SC2 has compared to BW/WC3 and the greater acceptance of e-sports will let foreigners compete more with South Korea. The current Brood War pros are very good too, but I don't know if it really attracts new players still. I suppose it might, but I would still imagine it's a lot less than at its hayday. And with age a lot of the current generation of pros will retire and perhaps the influx of new talent in Korea will not be as good as the foreigner ones. Then there wouldn't really be an elephant, it'd be something that exists now, but would go away with time.
I guess it's fun to speculate, but that's all guesswork.
The elephant is that the current scene is dominated by BW players who weren't relevant and that therefore the competition isn't what it could be as we are missing the relevant BW players. If SC2 grows is still played in 50 years while BW dies*, I don't think anyone is going to claim that it is still not what it could be because the BW players didn't play. So yeah, the elephant indeed will go away in time.
On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion.
Yes, yes, let us ignore the fact that every GSL champion but one has been a former BW pro. I think BW experience has already made people SC2 champions. Maybe next you'll deny the existence of gravity or that the Sun will rise tomorrow?
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On February 19 2012 09:36 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:22 Grumbels wrote:
All the best foreigners are still former WC3 or BW players, there's not yet really a new generation of players to surpass their level of play - so much for the new generation always being better, but perhaps it will happen in a few more years. And when that happens, maybe the higher amount of exposure SC2 has compared to BW/WC3 and the greater acceptance of e-sports will let foreigners compete more with South Korea. The current Brood War pros are very good too, but I don't know if it really attracts new players still. I suppose it might, but I would still imagine it's a lot less than at its hayday. And with age a lot of the current generation of pros will retire and perhaps the influx of new talent in Korea will not be as good as the foreigner ones. Then there wouldn't really be an elephant, it'd be something that exists now, but would go away with time.
I guess it's fun to speculate, but that's all guesswork. The elephant is that the current scene is dominated by BW players who weren't relevant and that therefore the competition isn't what it could be as we are missing the relevant BW players. If SC2 grows is still played in 50 years while BW dies*, I don't think anyone is going to claim that it is still not what it could be because the BW players didn't play. So yeah, the elephant indeed will go away in time. Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion. Yes, yes, let us ignore the fact that every GSL champion but one has been a former BW pro. I think BW experience has already made people SC2 champions. Maybe next you'll deny the existence of gravity or that the Sun will rise tomorrow?
The difference is I don't think their BW experience made them SC2 champions. Their effort, hard work and skill in SC2 made them SC2 champions.
If their BW skill made them what they are in SC2, then we'd see a correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Maybe that correlation was there a year ago, but its getting weaker.
Note: in about a week, we'll have 2 GSL champions in a row that didn't play BW at the pro level.
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On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion.
You do realize Nestea MVP MC MMA and almost every other 'big name Korean' sc2 player came from BW right? Hyun played the game for three months and smashed through the qualifiers granted he hasn't shown any results and looks meh. but still 3 months.. thats fucking impressive! Will Relevant BW pro's dominate? probably yes... will it be as big as the op and others suggest? Meh only time will tell... But to try and outright deny that BW experience has/can make SC2 champions is just insane...
I agree this should probably be closed though...
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On February 19 2012 09:47 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion. You do realize Nestea MVP MC MMA and almost every other 'big name Korean' sc2 player came from BW right? Hyun played the game for three months and smashed through the qualifiers granted he hasn't shown any results and looks meh. but still 3 months.. thats fucking impressive! Will Relevant BW pro's dominate? probably yes... will it be as big as the op and others suggest? Meh only time will tell... But to try and outright deny that BW experience has/can make SC2 champions is just insane... I agree this should probably be closed though...
What people have been saying is that there isn't a trend where the better you are at BW the better you are at SC2, otherwise people like MVP, Hyun and ForGG would be winning everything, which they most definitely aren't right now.
I'm sure there's a lot of things all the GSL champs have done like played football or iceskate since it's popular there, doesn't mean there's a correlation.
And really, no one should care about what Hyun has done so far until he's shown real results. Like it's super sweet he was able to qualify for Code A so soon but how do you know other people haven't done the same? Hyun is about the only Code A player that has gotten hype for just qualifying and its ridiculous.
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On February 19 2012 09:51 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:47 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion. You do realize Nestea MVP MC MMA and almost every other 'big name Korean' sc2 player came from BW right? Hyun played the game for three months and smashed through the qualifiers granted he hasn't shown any results and looks meh. but still 3 months.. thats fucking impressive! Will Relevant BW pro's dominate? probably yes... will it be as big as the op and others suggest? Meh only time will tell... But to try and outright deny that BW experience has/can make SC2 champions is just insane... I agree this should probably be closed though... What people have been saying is that there isn't a trend where the better you are at BW the better you are at SC2, otherwise people like MVP, Hyun and ForGG would be winning everything, which they most definitely aren't right now. I'm sure there's a lot of things all the GSL champs have done like played football or iceskate since it's popular there, doesn't mean there's a correlation. And really, no one should care about what Hyun has done so far until he's shown real results. Like it's super sweet he was able to qualify for Code A so soon but how do you know other people haven't done the same? Hyun is about the only Code A player that has gotten hype for just qualifying and its ridiculous.
Well to be fair... MC, Nestea, MMA, and MVP have pretty much been winning every GSL...... ForGG and Hyun have just switched over.... Yea ForGG was playing lots of ladder before, but its silly to think playing Ladder games is the same thing as training with a team.
People hyped Hyun up so much because of how quickly he was able to make it through the qualifiers, not just because he did. They're are players who have been playing since Beta, with teams that can't make it through the qualifiers and he picked the game up in three months and got through. IMO that deserves a bit of hype, I agree it was way over blown. Give him and ForGG 2-3 more GSL seasons and if they aren't stomping nerds, THEN you can make your arguments against them.
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On February 19 2012 09:59 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:51 fraktoasters wrote:On February 19 2012 09:47 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion. You do realize Nestea MVP MC MMA and almost every other 'big name Korean' sc2 player came from BW right? Hyun played the game for three months and smashed through the qualifiers granted he hasn't shown any results and looks meh. but still 3 months.. thats fucking impressive! Will Relevant BW pro's dominate? probably yes... will it be as big as the op and others suggest? Meh only time will tell... But to try and outright deny that BW experience has/can make SC2 champions is just insane... I agree this should probably be closed though... What people have been saying is that there isn't a trend where the better you are at BW the better you are at SC2, otherwise people like MVP, Hyun and ForGG would be winning everything, which they most definitely aren't right now. I'm sure there's a lot of things all the GSL champs have done like played football or iceskate since it's popular there, doesn't mean there's a correlation. And really, no one should care about what Hyun has done so far until he's shown real results. Like it's super sweet he was able to qualify for Code A so soon but how do you know other people haven't done the same? Hyun is about the only Code A player that has gotten hype for just qualifying and its ridiculous. Well to be fair... MC, Nestea, MMA, and MVP have pretty much been winning every GSL...... ForGG and Hyun have just switched over.... Yea ForGG was playing lots of ladder before, but its silly to think playing Ladder games is the same thing as training with a team. People hyped Hyun up so much because of how quickly he was able to make it through the qualifiers, not just because he did. They're are players who have been playing since Beta, with teams that can't make it through the qualifiers and he picked the game up in three months and got through. IMO that deserves a bit of hype, I agree it was way over blown. Give him and ForGG 2-3 more GSL seasons and if they aren't stomping nerds, THEN you can make your arguments against them.
Jakji, MMA, Polt, and Gumiho/Alive/DRG/Genius (whoever wins this current GSL).
And yes I get that there are a lot of bad players but that doesn't make Hyun good at SC2.
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why is this always bumped?
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On February 19 2012 10:02 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:59 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 09:51 fraktoasters wrote:On February 19 2012 09:47 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion. You do realize Nestea MVP MC MMA and almost every other 'big name Korean' sc2 player came from BW right? Hyun played the game for three months and smashed through the qualifiers granted he hasn't shown any results and looks meh. but still 3 months.. thats fucking impressive! Will Relevant BW pro's dominate? probably yes... will it be as big as the op and others suggest? Meh only time will tell... But to try and outright deny that BW experience has/can make SC2 champions is just insane... I agree this should probably be closed though... What people have been saying is that there isn't a trend where the better you are at BW the better you are at SC2, otherwise people like MVP, Hyun and ForGG would be winning everything, which they most definitely aren't right now. I'm sure there's a lot of things all the GSL champs have done like played football or iceskate since it's popular there, doesn't mean there's a correlation. And really, no one should care about what Hyun has done so far until he's shown real results. Like it's super sweet he was able to qualify for Code A so soon but how do you know other people haven't done the same? Hyun is about the only Code A player that has gotten hype for just qualifying and its ridiculous. Well to be fair... MC, Nestea, MMA, and MVP have pretty much been winning every GSL...... ForGG and Hyun have just switched over.... Yea ForGG was playing lots of ladder before, but its silly to think playing Ladder games is the same thing as training with a team. People hyped Hyun up so much because of how quickly he was able to make it through the qualifiers, not just because he did. They're are players who have been playing since Beta, with teams that can't make it through the qualifiers and he picked the game up in three months and got through. IMO that deserves a bit of hype, I agree it was way over blown. Give him and ForGG 2-3 more GSL seasons and if they aren't stomping nerds, THEN you can make your arguments against them. Jakji, MMA, Polt, and Gumiho/Alive/DRG/Genius (whoever wins this current GSL). And yes I get that there are a lot of bad players but that doesn't make Hyun good at SC2.
MMA is from BW...... So you have atleast 9 GSL titles held by former BW pros to 2-3 from non BW players....
And actually a lot of good players are in Code B... Code A qualifiers are extremely difficult to get through. I never said he was amazing at Sc2... just saying for the time he has been playing he is good and shows A LOT of potential.
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So we're bumping this now even when nobody plays? Seriously?
Can't you guys just make a blog post about how awful bw/sc2 is or at least take it to pm's.
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On February 19 2012 09:43 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:36 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 09:22 Grumbels wrote:
All the best foreigners are still former WC3 or BW players, there's not yet really a new generation of players to surpass their level of play - so much for the new generation always being better, but perhaps it will happen in a few more years. And when that happens, maybe the higher amount of exposure SC2 has compared to BW/WC3 and the greater acceptance of e-sports will let foreigners compete more with South Korea. The current Brood War pros are very good too, but I don't know if it really attracts new players still. I suppose it might, but I would still imagine it's a lot less than at its hayday. And with age a lot of the current generation of pros will retire and perhaps the influx of new talent in Korea will not be as good as the foreigner ones. Then there wouldn't really be an elephant, it'd be something that exists now, but would go away with time.
I guess it's fun to speculate, but that's all guesswork. The elephant is that the current scene is dominated by BW players who weren't relevant and that therefore the competition isn't what it could be as we are missing the relevant BW players. If SC2 grows is still played in 50 years while BW dies*, I don't think anyone is going to claim that it is still not what it could be because the BW players didn't play. So yeah, the elephant indeed will go away in time. On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion. Yes, yes, let us ignore the fact that every GSL champion but one has been a former BW pro. I think BW experience has already made people SC2 champions. Maybe next you'll deny the existence of gravity or that the Sun will rise tomorrow? The difference is I don't think their BW experience made them SC2 champions. Their effort, hard work and skill in SC2 made them SC2 champions. If their BW skill made them what they are in SC2, then we'd see a correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Maybe that correlation was there a year ago, but its getting weaker. Note: in about a week, we'll have 2 GSL champions in a row that didn't play BW at the pro level.
I don't think their BW experience in and of itself made them champions either. Do you think that is what people have been arguing? If so, you have been lost. We are arguing that BW is a very competetive scene. If you were good in that scene, you had to have talent. It is that talent that makes people champions. We are also arguing that if you were very good in BW, A-class and above, you had way more talent. And therefore chances are you will do well in SC2. And so far it has been BW players, either B-teamers or top amateurs, who have dominated the scene, it is reasonable to think that A-teamers and S-class would do even better as they crushed the B-teamers and top amateurs.
It is not their BW skill but their skill. BW did not make them good but the fact that they were good in BW. Just like I mentioned before. They just weren't good enough to be at the top in BW because the level of competition in there is higher.
And of course over time the dominance of former BW players will grow weaker over time. New talent will come in, nobody denies that. I mean it's not like Flash played BW in his mother's womb. He too was a new talent at one some point. But the facts are that the best players in SC2 are BW players. And that the very best have almost all been in proteams and even those who weren't, were very good amateurs. There is a good reason to think that if the A-teamers would switch, they would wreak havoc.
Jjakji was a BW amateur though. And out of the current four finalists at least Genius was in BW proteam. Two were at least amateurs. Gumiho I don't know of. You should make sure you have your facts correct.
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EPT
