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On February 19 2012 13:29 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3 My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir  <3 Actually you do, you can claim they will be very good but what you are saying they will be as good or better then MVP. Those are 2 different and no, you don't have proof since so far it didn't happened.
Umm I'd say Nestea MMA and MC are all on skill par with MVP at this point in time? and all of them were B teamers in BW....
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On February 19 2012 13:27 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 13:26 hunts wrote:On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3 My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3 Hyun sure dominated code A this season, and forgg sure domianted code S  Hyun qualified for Code A after 3 months of playing and ForGG though he lost in code S has yet to drop a map in code A... Again I have to point out. GSL titles by former BW pros-9 Non bw pros- 1-2.....
Well ofc they will be from former pro's since guess what. They have experience from being pro. This game is still to young to make silly claims like bw will always dominate the new sc2 players since so far there barely are new sc2 players (as in no bw)
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On February 19 2012 13:31 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 13:29 Assirra wrote:On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3 My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3 Actually you do, you can claim they will be very good but what you are saying they will be as good or better then MVP. Those are 2 different and no, you don't have proof since so far it didn't happened. Umm I'd say Nestea MMA and MC are all on skill par with MVP at this point in time? and all of them were B teamers in BW....
So what you're saying is that SC2 closes the skill gap between BW A and B teamers. by that logic players like flash will not be any better than BW A teamers either. Since there are also players who weren't pro in BW who are on a similar level to nestea MMA MC and MVP, this also means that BW semi-pros will be on the same level. You just proved the very thing you've been arguing against, thank you.
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On February 19 2012 13:27 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 13:26 hunts wrote:On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3 My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3 Hyun sure dominated code A this season, and forgg sure domianted code S Hyun qualified for Code A after 3 months of playing and ForGG though he lost in code S has yet to drop a map in code A... Again I have to point out. GSL titles by former BW pros-9 Non bw pros- 1-2.....
The article is saying the titles of mc, MVP and nestea are a farce as don't count because they are bad at BW. Hyun and ForGG switched and are so far outdoing Yugioh. MC, Nestea and MVP are being replaced in dominance by players with less BW programing experience.
By law of empirical evidence--the OP is wrong.
If you wish to introduce a seperate argument from the OP, go right ahead. But players in the top 100 of pro players switched over and failed to do better than last years "top level BW switchers" and last years top level BW switchers are being overtaken by players with even less BW experience.
Once again, empirical, what's in front of us, hard evidence shows that the OP is wrong.
Theorycrafting what if scenarios and pretending that the theorycrafting supersedes empirical evidence is faith based argumentation--no religion discussions on TL please.
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There's no telling how good Flash, Bisu and Jaedong will be at SC2.... IMHO. There are too many other variables at play, BW mastery will help them no doubt, but I think among the top players in any sport, the edge is slight enough that any significant change in the environment, will have chaotic affects.
This is why I fear we'll never see it, and why I respect Boxer so much for doing it. I think its a huge risk for BW legends to try SC2 with a lot of fanfare... expectations are incredibly high and the mob is not very forgiving.
Look at Boxers attempt in SC2 compared with Yellows. What if Boxer never made those first few GSL's? He might have just faded away as well.
Its a big risk, for only the most brave of champions!
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On February 19 2012 13:30 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 13:23 MONXY FIST wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... How do you know this are you just saying random things and hoping that it is true? the number maybe off but it is a large number... when/if they switch also unknown Lots of hints have been pointing to sooner then later though.... the point is they are all as good some better then MVP was at BW have amazing RTS skills and game sense, and insane work ethic... so no I am not saying random things and hoping they are true.
I understand this, i have been watching broodwar for 4 years now. I understand that they have an insane work ethic, that they are extremely talented. However MVP was also a BW progamer. In fact he was an A Teamer who did okay in proleague. So for you to suggest that B teamers and semi pros to be just as good as MVP or better really doesn't have any basis imo. Also while there is certainly a trend where the better you were at BW the better you are at SC2 but it isn't perfect. For example MKP was much worse then Killer(SangHo) was at BW and yet MKP is much better then Killer is in SC2.
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On February 19 2012 13:39 dsousa wrote:
There's no telling how good Flash, Bisu and Jaedong will be at SC2.... IMHO. There are too many other variables at play, BW mastery will help them no doubt, but I think among the top players in any sport, the edge is slight enough that any significant change in the environment, will have chaotic affects.
This is why I fear we'll never see it, and why I respect Boxer so much for doing it. I think its a huge risk for BW legends to try SC2 with a lot of fanfare... expectations are incredibly high and the mob is not very forgiving.
Look at Boxers attempt in SC2 compared with Yellows. What if Boxer never made those first few GSL's? He might have just faded away as well.
Its a big risk, for only the most brave of champions!
Boxer had nothing to lose and everything to gain for switching to SC2. It's not like he was close to being a regular A-teamer. Boxer realized he had reached the end in his BW career, and while he was still very valuable as veteran/coach of the game, he wanted to be foremost someone who could give his fans what they wanted. BW simply would never have allowed that.
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On February 19 2012 13:44 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 13:39 dsousa wrote:
There's no telling how good Flash, Bisu and Jaedong will be at SC2.... IMHO. There are too many other variables at play, BW mastery will help them no doubt, but I think among the top players in any sport, the edge is slight enough that any significant change in the environment, will have chaotic affects.
This is why I fear we'll never see it, and why I respect Boxer so much for doing it. I think its a huge risk for BW legends to try SC2 with a lot of fanfare... expectations are incredibly high and the mob is not very forgiving.
Look at Boxers attempt in SC2 compared with Yellows. What if Boxer never made those first few GSL's? He might have just faded away as well.
Its a big risk, for only the most brave of champions!
Boxer had nothing to lose and everything to gain for switching to SC2. It's not like he was close to being a regular A-teamer. Boxer realized he had reached the end in his BW career, and while he was still very valuable as veteran/coach of the game, he wanted to be foremost someone who could give his fans what they wanted. BW simply would never have allowed that.
What would people have said if he couldn't beat the early crop of SC2 players? It would have been brutal.
Every time you go on stage you risk something.... you should try it and then claim it's so easy to put yourself out there competitively.
You think Boxer's reputation isn't worth anything? It's worth MILLIONS!
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i believe the realm where players like flash and jaedong will dominate is on LARGE maps (like taldar arim) where the most optimal way to play in theory would be to have 3 well micro'ed armies on various sizes engaging different parts of the map and doing it perfectly
the amount of mechanics required to play at that level is insane im sure once the gameplay evolves to that point on those large maps you will see domination from the BW elite because their mechanics will be too superior
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On February 19 2012 13:37 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 13:27 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:26 hunts wrote:On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3 My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3 Hyun sure dominated code A this season, and forgg sure domianted code S Hyun qualified for Code A after 3 months of playing and ForGG though he lost in code S has yet to drop a map in code A... Again I have to point out. GSL titles by former BW pros-9 Non bw pros- 1-2..... The article is saying the titles of mc, MVP and nestea are a farce as don't count because they are bad at BW. Hyun and ForGG switched and are so far outdoing Yugioh. MC, Nestea and MVP are being replaced in dominance by players with less BW programing experience. By law of empirical evidence--the OP is wrong. If you wish to introduce a seperate argument from the OP, go right ahead. But players in the top 100 of pro players switched over and failed to do better than last years "top level BW switchers" and last years top level BW switchers are being overtaken by players with even less BW experience. Once again, empirical, what's in front of us, hard evidence shows that the OP is wrong. Theorycrafting what if scenarios and pretending that the theorycrafting supersedes empirical evidence is faith based argumentation--no religion discussions on TL please.
Hyun and Forgg were pretty bad at BW as well, apart from Forgg's one msl win. He faded away after that.
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On February 19 2012 14:14 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 13:37 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 13:27 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:26 hunts wrote:On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3 My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3 Hyun sure dominated code A this season, and forgg sure domianted code S Hyun qualified for Code A after 3 months of playing and ForGG though he lost in code S has yet to drop a map in code A... Again I have to point out. GSL titles by former BW pros-9 Non bw pros- 1-2..... The article is saying the titles of mc, MVP and nestea are a farce as don't count because they are bad at BW. Hyun and ForGG switched and are so far outdoing Yugioh. MC, Nestea and MVP are being replaced in dominance by players with less BW programing experience. By law of empirical evidence--the OP is wrong. If you wish to introduce a seperate argument from the OP, go right ahead. But players in the top 100 of pro players switched over and failed to do better than last years "top level BW switchers" and last years top level BW switchers are being overtaken by players with even less BW experience. Once again, empirical, what's in front of us, hard evidence shows that the OP is wrong. Theorycrafting what if scenarios and pretending that the theorycrafting supersedes empirical evidence is faith based argumentation--no religion discussions on TL please. Hyun and Forgg were pretty bad at BW as well, apart from Forgg's one msl win. He faded away after that.
Then I ask you to go on the Liquid database and count, by hand, the number of A Team players around during the time Hyun was playing. You'll see that Hyun is in the top 100 players in BW even assuming he was the absolute worse player possible imaginable amongst the A-Team players.
Hyun and Forgg being "bad" and "not counting" is saying the top 300 players are "bad" and "don't count" which means the article is false and dis-proven.
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Look at ForGG's stream though, he plays faster and more precise than pretty much any other Korean that streams. I imagine Jaedong and Bisu are faster than ForGG too.
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On February 19 2012 17:49 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 14:14 Dante08 wrote:On February 19 2012 13:37 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 13:27 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:26 hunts wrote:On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3 My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3 Hyun sure dominated code A this season, and forgg sure domianted code S Hyun qualified for Code A after 3 months of playing and ForGG though he lost in code S has yet to drop a map in code A... Again I have to point out. GSL titles by former BW pros-9 Non bw pros- 1-2..... The article is saying the titles of mc, MVP and nestea are a farce as don't count because they are bad at BW. Hyun and ForGG switched and are so far outdoing Yugioh. MC, Nestea and MVP are being replaced in dominance by players with less BW programing experience. By law of empirical evidence--the OP is wrong. If you wish to introduce a seperate argument from the OP, go right ahead. But players in the top 100 of pro players switched over and failed to do better than last years "top level BW switchers" and last years top level BW switchers are being overtaken by players with even less BW experience. Once again, empirical, what's in front of us, hard evidence shows that the OP is wrong. Theorycrafting what if scenarios and pretending that the theorycrafting supersedes empirical evidence is faith based argumentation--no religion discussions on TL please. Hyun and Forgg were pretty bad at BW as well, apart from Forgg's one msl win. He faded away after that. Then I ask you to go on the Liquid database and count, by hand, the number of A Team players around during the time Hyun was playing. You'll see that Hyun is in the top 100 players in BW even assuming he was the absolute worse player possible imaginable amongst the A-Team players. Hyun and Forgg being "bad" and "not counting" is saying the top 300 players are "bad" and "don't count" which means the article is false and dis-proven.
Is this whats it's come to? nitpicking at the 300 number? I'll tell you now even at the articles conception the number was never 300 so keep on poking at the hole that isn't there, you just come off as desperate.
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On February 19 2012 13:40 MONXY FIST wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 13:30 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:23 MONXY FIST wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... How do you know this are you just saying random things and hoping that it is true? the number maybe off but it is a large number... when/if they switch also unknown Lots of hints have been pointing to sooner then later though.... the point is they are all as good some better then MVP was at BW have amazing RTS skills and game sense, and insane work ethic... so no I am not saying random things and hoping they are true. I understand this, i have been watching broodwar for 4 years now. I understand that they have an insane work ethic, that they are extremely talented. However MVP was also a BW progamer. In fact he was an A Teamer who did okay in proleague. So for you to suggest that B teamers and semi pros to be just as good as MVP or better really doesn't have any basis imo. Also while there is certainly a trend where the better you were at BW the better you are at SC2 but it isn't perfect. For example MKP was much worse then Killer(SangHo) was at BW and yet MKP is much better then Killer is in SC2.
Hmm... well, MKP isn't really a good example to prove any point. He was only a rookie at MBC when he left the team in his first year as a progamer. Drafted in 2009, left in 2010.
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On February 19 2012 18:26 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 17:49 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 14:14 Dante08 wrote:On February 19 2012 13:37 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 13:27 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:26 hunts wrote:On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3 My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3 Hyun sure dominated code A this season, and forgg sure domianted code S Hyun qualified for Code A after 3 months of playing and ForGG though he lost in code S has yet to drop a map in code A... Again I have to point out. GSL titles by former BW pros-9 Non bw pros- 1-2..... The article is saying the titles of mc, MVP and nestea are a farce as don't count because they are bad at BW. Hyun and ForGG switched and are so far outdoing Yugioh. MC, Nestea and MVP are being replaced in dominance by players with less BW programing experience. By law of empirical evidence--the OP is wrong. If you wish to introduce a seperate argument from the OP, go right ahead. But players in the top 100 of pro players switched over and failed to do better than last years "top level BW switchers" and last years top level BW switchers are being overtaken by players with even less BW experience. Once again, empirical, what's in front of us, hard evidence shows that the OP is wrong. Theorycrafting what if scenarios and pretending that the theorycrafting supersedes empirical evidence is faith based argumentation--no religion discussions on TL please. Hyun and Forgg were pretty bad at BW as well, apart from Forgg's one msl win. He faded away after that. Then I ask you to go on the Liquid database and count, by hand, the number of A Team players around during the time Hyun was playing. You'll see that Hyun is in the top 100 players in BW even assuming he was the absolute worse player possible imaginable amongst the A-Team players. Hyun and Forgg being "bad" and "not counting" is saying the top 300 players are "bad" and "don't count" which means the article is false and dis-proven. Is this whats it's come to? nitpicking at the 300 number? I'll tell you now even at the articles conception the number was never 300 so keep on poking at the hole that isn't there, you just come off as desperate.
Competition in SC2 isn't that much of a farce if the number was 30 instead of 300, eh?
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On February 19 2012 18:26 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 17:49 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 14:14 Dante08 wrote:On February 19 2012 13:37 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 13:27 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:26 hunts wrote:On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3 My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3 Hyun sure dominated code A this season, and forgg sure domianted code S Hyun qualified for Code A after 3 months of playing and ForGG though he lost in code S has yet to drop a map in code A... Again I have to point out. GSL titles by former BW pros-9 Non bw pros- 1-2..... The article is saying the titles of mc, MVP and nestea are a farce as don't count because they are bad at BW. Hyun and ForGG switched and are so far outdoing Yugioh. MC, Nestea and MVP are being replaced in dominance by players with less BW programing experience. By law of empirical evidence--the OP is wrong. If you wish to introduce a seperate argument from the OP, go right ahead. But players in the top 100 of pro players switched over and failed to do better than last years "top level BW switchers" and last years top level BW switchers are being overtaken by players with even less BW experience. Once again, empirical, what's in front of us, hard evidence shows that the OP is wrong. Theorycrafting what if scenarios and pretending that the theorycrafting supersedes empirical evidence is faith based argumentation--no religion discussions on TL please. Hyun and Forgg were pretty bad at BW as well, apart from Forgg's one msl win. He faded away after that. Then I ask you to go on the Liquid database and count, by hand, the number of A Team players around during the time Hyun was playing. You'll see that Hyun is in the top 100 players in BW even assuming he was the absolute worse player possible imaginable amongst the A-Team players. Hyun and Forgg being "bad" and "not counting" is saying the top 300 players are "bad" and "don't count" which means the article is false and dis-proven. Is this whats it's come to? nitpicking at the 300 number? I'll tell you now even at the articles conception the number was never 300 so keep on poking at the hole that isn't there, you just come off as desperate.
Sorry that I am sticking to what the article says--I didn't know staying on topic was prohibited in forum discourse.
What number do you consider is valid for discussion?
Top 100 of BW?
Top 50 of BW?
Top 25 of BW?
How small must the number get before you are happy?
Stick with facts--not theorycraft.
The article assumed SC2 was a farce because any random BW player could switch over and dominate. We now know that even top 100 A class players are only guaranteed to beat B class SC2 players--and not even consistently. Which means low level A Teamers are as good as low level SC2 players in playing SC2.
So far, what the facts show is that there is no correlation between success in BW with success in SC2. We do see a correlation between having past RTS experience being important in one's success in SC2--but there's a reason Supernova is below Leenock and DRG, why Genius is doing better than MC, why MMA is doing better than MVP. They are doing better because they're working hard and have the relevant talent necessary to play the game. Out there hidden in the wings--whether it be Flash or some kid in a PC Bang--is a player with the potential to dominate and redefine the game as we know it. There will always be that "person" out there in the ether of society who has the potential to dominate.
Pre-Flash BW is not a farce just because Flash wasn't there yet. Much like post-Flash BW will not be a farce if Flash decides to call it quits one day. When you only revolve around the top high end players of a genre--then you're simply devolving into a "my game is better than your game" argument--which is silly.
For example.
Tom Brady is really good at throwing a football. Does that mean that he will become the best Baseball player ever if he decided to pitch in Baseball instead of pass in football.
Bolt is a really good sprinter--does that mean he could become the best running back ever?
If Brady did switch to Baseball and became the best pitcher to have ever played the game--ever--then does that mean baseball, during the 100 or so year history that its been around, was a farce? Or does it simply mean that Brady is talented in being both a quarterback and a pitcher and neither game hinges on the fact that Brady plays in said game.
There is a reason that a CJ trained foreigner is not dominating the foreign scene as much as a warcraft 3 zerg who doesn't practice that much. The same reason why a CJ trained toss is less dominating than a company of heroes toss.
No more faith based arguments please--stick to facts.
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On February 19 2012 19:20 lorkac wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 19 2012 18:26 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 17:49 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 14:14 Dante08 wrote:On February 19 2012 13:37 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 13:27 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:26 hunts wrote:On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3 My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3 Hyun sure dominated code A this season, and forgg sure domianted code S Hyun qualified for Code A after 3 months of playing and ForGG though he lost in code S has yet to drop a map in code A... Again I have to point out. GSL titles by former BW pros-9 Non bw pros- 1-2..... The article is saying the titles of mc, MVP and nestea are a farce as don't count because they are bad at BW. Hyun and ForGG switched and are so far outdoing Yugioh. MC, Nestea and MVP are being replaced in dominance by players with less BW programing experience. By law of empirical evidence--the OP is wrong. If you wish to introduce a seperate argument from the OP, go right ahead. But players in the top 100 of pro players switched over and failed to do better than last years "top level BW switchers" and last years top level BW switchers are being overtaken by players with even less BW experience. Once again, empirical, what's in front of us, hard evidence shows that the OP is wrong. Theorycrafting what if scenarios and pretending that the theorycrafting supersedes empirical evidence is faith based argumentation--no religion discussions on TL please. Hyun and Forgg were pretty bad at BW as well, apart from Forgg's one msl win. He faded away after that. Then I ask you to go on the Liquid database and count, by hand, the number of A Team players around during the time Hyun was playing. You'll see that Hyun is in the top 100 players in BW even assuming he was the absolute worse player possible imaginable amongst the A-Team players. Hyun and Forgg being "bad" and "not counting" is saying the top 300 players are "bad" and "don't count" which means the article is false and dis-proven. Is this whats it's come to? nitpicking at the 300 number? I'll tell you now even at the articles conception the number was never 300 so keep on poking at the hole that isn't there, you just come off as desperate. Sorry that I am sticking to what the article says--I didn't know staying on topic was prohibited in forum discourse. What number do you consider is valid for discussion? Top 100 of BW? Top 50 of BW? Top 25 of BW? How small must the number get before you are happy? Stick with facts--not theorycraft. The article assumed SC2 was a farce because any random BW player could switch over and dominate. We now know that even top 100 A class players are only guaranteed to beat B class SC2 players--and not even consistently. Which means low level A Teamers are as good as low level SC2 players in playing SC2. So far, what the facts show is that there is no correlation between success in BW with success in SC2. We do see a correlation between having past RTS experience being important in one's success in SC2--but there's a reason Supernova is below Leenock and DRG, why Genius is doing better than MC, why MMA is doing better than MVP. They are doing better because they're working hard and have the relevant talent necessary to play the game. Out there hidden in the wings--whether it be Flash or some kid in a PC Bang--is a player with the potential to dominate and redefine the game as we know it. There will always be that "person" out there in the ether of society who has the potential to dominate. Pre-Flash BW is not a farce just because Flash wasn't there yet. Much like post-Flash BW will not be a farce if Flash decides to call it quits one day. When you only revolve around the top high end players of a genre--then you're simply devolving into a "my game is better than your game" argument--which is silly. For example. Tom Brady is really good at throwing a football. Does that mean that he will become the best Baseball player ever if he decided to pitch in Baseball instead of pass in football. Bolt is a really good sprinter--does that mean he could become the best running back ever? If Brady did switch to Baseball and became the best pitcher to have ever played the game--ever--then does that mean baseball, during the 100 or so year history that its been around, was a farce? Or does it simply mean that Brady is talented in being both a quarterback and a pitcher and neither game hinges on the fact that Brady plays in said game. There is a reason that a CJ trained foreigner is not dominating the foreign scene as much as a warcraft 3 zerg who doesn't practice that much. The same reason why a CJ trained toss is less dominating than a company of heroes toss. No more faith based arguments please--stick to facts.
I don't advocate making the number smaller i was just calling you out on trying to fit the hyperbole in the article with statistical evidence.
You tell me to stick to facts but your post is just full of horrid false analogies and mental gymnastics in order to support your view. Really now? Football and Baseball? Please be rational. The parallels your are trying to draw are so absurd i hope your just being facetious.
Also the strong BW -> SC2 correlation does not break down if "aaa" rank 145 in BW is higher ranked in SC2 than "bbb" whos is ranked 144 in BW. However if you continue to insist as such then may as well end the conversation there as you have a severe misunderstand of what is and isn't statistic evidence.
On February 19 2012 18:35 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 18:26 ShadeR wrote:On February 19 2012 17:49 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 14:14 Dante08 wrote:On February 19 2012 13:37 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 13:27 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:26 hunts wrote:On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:
[quote]
No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious?
Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3 My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3 Hyun sure dominated code A this season, and forgg sure domianted code S Hyun qualified for Code A after 3 months of playing and ForGG though he lost in code S has yet to drop a map in code A... Again I have to point out. GSL titles by former BW pros-9 Non bw pros- 1-2..... The article is saying the titles of mc, MVP and nestea are a farce as don't count because they are bad at BW. Hyun and ForGG switched and are so far outdoing Yugioh. MC, Nestea and MVP are being replaced in dominance by players with less BW programing experience. By law of empirical evidence--the OP is wrong. If you wish to introduce a seperate argument from the OP, go right ahead. But players in the top 100 of pro players switched over and failed to do better than last years "top level BW switchers" and last years top level BW switchers are being overtaken by players with even less BW experience. Once again, empirical, what's in front of us, hard evidence shows that the OP is wrong. Theorycrafting what if scenarios and pretending that the theorycrafting supersedes empirical evidence is faith based argumentation--no religion discussions on TL please. Hyun and Forgg were pretty bad at BW as well, apart from Forgg's one msl win. He faded away after that. Then I ask you to go on the Liquid database and count, by hand, the number of A Team players around during the time Hyun was playing. You'll see that Hyun is in the top 100 players in BW even assuming he was the absolute worse player possible imaginable amongst the A-Team players. Hyun and Forgg being "bad" and "not counting" is saying the top 300 players are "bad" and "don't count" which means the article is false and dis-proven. Is this whats it's come to? nitpicking at the 300 number? I'll tell you now even at the articles conception the number was never 300 so keep on poking at the hole that isn't there, you just come off as desperate. Competition in SC2 isn't that much of a farce if the number was 30 instead of 300, eh?
Nope more like. 150.
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On February 19 2012 20:28 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 19:20 lorkac wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 19 2012 18:26 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 17:49 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 14:14 Dante08 wrote:On February 19 2012 13:37 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 13:27 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:26 hunts wrote:On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3 My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3 Hyun sure dominated code A this season, and forgg sure domianted code S Hyun qualified for Code A after 3 months of playing and ForGG though he lost in code S has yet to drop a map in code A... Again I have to point out. GSL titles by former BW pros-9 Non bw pros- 1-2..... The article is saying the titles of mc, MVP and nestea are a farce as don't count because they are bad at BW. Hyun and ForGG switched and are so far outdoing Yugioh. MC, Nestea and MVP are being replaced in dominance by players with less BW programing experience. By law of empirical evidence--the OP is wrong. If you wish to introduce a seperate argument from the OP, go right ahead. But players in the top 100 of pro players switched over and failed to do better than last years "top level BW switchers" and last years top level BW switchers are being overtaken by players with even less BW experience. Once again, empirical, what's in front of us, hard evidence shows that the OP is wrong. Theorycrafting what if scenarios and pretending that the theorycrafting supersedes empirical evidence is faith based argumentation--no religion discussions on TL please. Hyun and Forgg were pretty bad at BW as well, apart from Forgg's one msl win. He faded away after that. Then I ask you to go on the Liquid database and count, by hand, the number of A Team players around during the time Hyun was playing. You'll see that Hyun is in the top 100 players in BW even assuming he was the absolute worse player possible imaginable amongst the A-Team players. Hyun and Forgg being "bad" and "not counting" is saying the top 300 players are "bad" and "don't count" which means the article is false and dis-proven. Is this whats it's come to? nitpicking at the 300 number? I'll tell you now even at the articles conception the number was never 300 so keep on poking at the hole that isn't there, you just come off as desperate. Sorry that I am sticking to what the article says--I didn't know staying on topic was prohibited in forum discourse. What number do you consider is valid for discussion? Top 100 of BW? Top 50 of BW? Top 25 of BW? How small must the number get before you are happy? Stick with facts--not theorycraft. The article assumed SC2 was a farce because any random BW player could switch over and dominate. We now know that even top 100 A class players are only guaranteed to beat B class SC2 players--and not even consistently. Which means low level A Teamers are as good as low level SC2 players in playing SC2. So far, what the facts show is that there is no correlation between success in BW with success in SC2. We do see a correlation between having past RTS experience being important in one's success in SC2--but there's a reason Supernova is below Leenock and DRG, why Genius is doing better than MC, why MMA is doing better than MVP. They are doing better because they're working hard and have the relevant talent necessary to play the game. Out there hidden in the wings--whether it be Flash or some kid in a PC Bang--is a player with the potential to dominate and redefine the game as we know it. There will always be that "person" out there in the ether of society who has the potential to dominate. Pre-Flash BW is not a farce just because Flash wasn't there yet. Much like post-Flash BW will not be a farce if Flash decides to call it quits one day. When you only revolve around the top high end players of a genre--then you're simply devolving into a "my game is better than your game" argument--which is silly. For example. Tom Brady is really good at throwing a football. Does that mean that he will become the best Baseball player ever if he decided to pitch in Baseball instead of pass in football. Bolt is a really good sprinter--does that mean he could become the best running back ever? If Brady did switch to Baseball and became the best pitcher to have ever played the game--ever--then does that mean baseball, during the 100 or so year history that its been around, was a farce? Or does it simply mean that Brady is talented in being both a quarterback and a pitcher and neither game hinges on the fact that Brady plays in said game. There is a reason that a CJ trained foreigner is not dominating the foreign scene as much as a warcraft 3 zerg who doesn't practice that much. The same reason why a CJ trained toss is less dominating than a company of heroes toss. No more faith based arguments please--stick to facts. I don't advocate making the number smaller i was just calling you out on trying to fit the hyperbole in the article with statistical evidence. You tell me to stick to facts but your post is just full of horrid false analogies and mental gymnastics in order to support your view. Really now? Football and Baseball? Please be rational. The parallels your are trying to draw are so absurd i hope your just being facetious. Also the strong BW -> SC2 correlation does not break down if "aaa" rank 145 in BW is higher ranked in SC2 than "bbb" whos is ranked 144 in BW. However if you continue to insist as such then may as well end the conversation there as you have a severe misunderstand of what is and isn't statistic evidence. Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 18:35 Zdrastochye wrote:On February 19 2012 18:26 ShadeR wrote:On February 19 2012 17:49 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 14:14 Dante08 wrote:On February 19 2012 13:37 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 13:27 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:26 hunts wrote:On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:
[quote]
Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement.
I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3
My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3 Hyun sure dominated code A this season, and forgg sure domianted code S Hyun qualified for Code A after 3 months of playing and ForGG though he lost in code S has yet to drop a map in code A... Again I have to point out. GSL titles by former BW pros-9 Non bw pros- 1-2..... The article is saying the titles of mc, MVP and nestea are a farce as don't count because they are bad at BW. Hyun and ForGG switched and are so far outdoing Yugioh. MC, Nestea and MVP are being replaced in dominance by players with less BW programing experience. By law of empirical evidence--the OP is wrong. If you wish to introduce a seperate argument from the OP, go right ahead. But players in the top 100 of pro players switched over and failed to do better than last years "top level BW switchers" and last years top level BW switchers are being overtaken by players with even less BW experience. Once again, empirical, what's in front of us, hard evidence shows that the OP is wrong. Theorycrafting what if scenarios and pretending that the theorycrafting supersedes empirical evidence is faith based argumentation--no religion discussions on TL please. Hyun and Forgg were pretty bad at BW as well, apart from Forgg's one msl win. He faded away after that. Then I ask you to go on the Liquid database and count, by hand, the number of A Team players around during the time Hyun was playing. You'll see that Hyun is in the top 100 players in BW even assuming he was the absolute worse player possible imaginable amongst the A-Team players. Hyun and Forgg being "bad" and "not counting" is saying the top 300 players are "bad" and "don't count" which means the article is false and dis-proven. Is this whats it's come to? nitpicking at the 300 number? I'll tell you now even at the articles conception the number was never 300 so keep on poking at the hole that isn't there, you just come off as desperate. Competition in SC2 isn't that much of a farce if the number was 30 instead of 300, eh? Nope more like. 150.
I noticed it too that it is rather pointless to argue with Lorkac and a few others when they don't understand basic concepts such as correlation. But that does not stop them from claiming it does not exist. And the constant strawmans like that pre-Flash BW claim. And the idea that time does not exist. It really seems to be the case that they just don't understand the argument. In fact, I'll go even further and claim they don't understand argument.
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No BW champion has switched and won a GSL, Boxer, Nada, July, ForGG, none of them. (any others I forget?) Every time one switches they are hyped.. and then when they're knocked out in code A, this out of date flame bait of a thread gets bumped and everyone who 2 weeks before was claiming ex BW progamer XXX is the greatest thing to every grace the scene, was trash at BW anyway and was a nobody. It seems unless your name is Flash, Jaedong or Bisu everyone at BW is trash if you listen to the hate that gets spewed in these threads. If you were pro at BW, you weren't trash you were in the top 99% of the world. So to have people say they were trash just proves they are only looking for arguments to debase SC2.
At this point I don't honestly care if the rest switch. Yes I'd love to see Flash and JD in GSL, and yes they'd do well, but if they don't... is it really going to make a difference? The next Flash or the next JD will likely be playing SC2, we'll wait for our own players thanks, rather than waiting for them second hand.
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On February 19 2012 23:17 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 20:28 ShadeR wrote:On February 19 2012 19:20 lorkac wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 19 2012 18:26 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 17:49 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 14:14 Dante08 wrote:On February 19 2012 13:37 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 13:27 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:26 hunts wrote:On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3 My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3 Hyun sure dominated code A this season, and forgg sure domianted code S Hyun qualified for Code A after 3 months of playing and ForGG though he lost in code S has yet to drop a map in code A... Again I have to point out. GSL titles by former BW pros-9 Non bw pros- 1-2..... The article is saying the titles of mc, MVP and nestea are a farce as don't count because they are bad at BW. Hyun and ForGG switched and are so far outdoing Yugioh. MC, Nestea and MVP are being replaced in dominance by players with less BW programing experience. By law of empirical evidence--the OP is wrong. If you wish to introduce a seperate argument from the OP, go right ahead. But players in the top 100 of pro players switched over and failed to do better than last years "top level BW switchers" and last years top level BW switchers are being overtaken by players with even less BW experience. Once again, empirical, what's in front of us, hard evidence shows that the OP is wrong. Theorycrafting what if scenarios and pretending that the theorycrafting supersedes empirical evidence is faith based argumentation--no religion discussions on TL please. Hyun and Forgg were pretty bad at BW as well, apart from Forgg's one msl win. He faded away after that. Then I ask you to go on the Liquid database and count, by hand, the number of A Team players around during the time Hyun was playing. You'll see that Hyun is in the top 100 players in BW even assuming he was the absolute worse player possible imaginable amongst the A-Team players. Hyun and Forgg being "bad" and "not counting" is saying the top 300 players are "bad" and "don't count" which means the article is false and dis-proven. Is this whats it's come to? nitpicking at the 300 number? I'll tell you now even at the articles conception the number was never 300 so keep on poking at the hole that isn't there, you just come off as desperate. Sorry that I am sticking to what the article says--I didn't know staying on topic was prohibited in forum discourse. What number do you consider is valid for discussion? Top 100 of BW? Top 50 of BW? Top 25 of BW? How small must the number get before you are happy? Stick with facts--not theorycraft. The article assumed SC2 was a farce because any random BW player could switch over and dominate. We now know that even top 100 A class players are only guaranteed to beat B class SC2 players--and not even consistently. Which means low level A Teamers are as good as low level SC2 players in playing SC2. So far, what the facts show is that there is no correlation between success in BW with success in SC2. We do see a correlation between having past RTS experience being important in one's success in SC2--but there's a reason Supernova is below Leenock and DRG, why Genius is doing better than MC, why MMA is doing better than MVP. They are doing better because they're working hard and have the relevant talent necessary to play the game. Out there hidden in the wings--whether it be Flash or some kid in a PC Bang--is a player with the potential to dominate and redefine the game as we know it. There will always be that "person" out there in the ether of society who has the potential to dominate. Pre-Flash BW is not a farce just because Flash wasn't there yet. Much like post-Flash BW will not be a farce if Flash decides to call it quits one day. When you only revolve around the top high end players of a genre--then you're simply devolving into a "my game is better than your game" argument--which is silly. For example. Tom Brady is really good at throwing a football. Does that mean that he will become the best Baseball player ever if he decided to pitch in Baseball instead of pass in football. Bolt is a really good sprinter--does that mean he could become the best running back ever? If Brady did switch to Baseball and became the best pitcher to have ever played the game--ever--then does that mean baseball, during the 100 or so year history that its been around, was a farce? Or does it simply mean that Brady is talented in being both a quarterback and a pitcher and neither game hinges on the fact that Brady plays in said game. There is a reason that a CJ trained foreigner is not dominating the foreign scene as much as a warcraft 3 zerg who doesn't practice that much. The same reason why a CJ trained toss is less dominating than a company of heroes toss. No more faith based arguments please--stick to facts. I don't advocate making the number smaller i was just calling you out on trying to fit the hyperbole in the article with statistical evidence. You tell me to stick to facts but your post is just full of horrid false analogies and mental gymnastics in order to support your view. Really now? Football and Baseball? Please be rational. The parallels your are trying to draw are so absurd i hope your just being facetious. Also the strong BW -> SC2 correlation does not break down if "aaa" rank 145 in BW is higher ranked in SC2 than "bbb" whos is ranked 144 in BW. However if you continue to insist as such then may as well end the conversation there as you have a severe misunderstand of what is and isn't statistic evidence. On February 19 2012 18:35 Zdrastochye wrote:On February 19 2012 18:26 ShadeR wrote:On February 19 2012 17:49 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 14:14 Dante08 wrote:On February 19 2012 13:37 lorkac wrote:On February 19 2012 13:27 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:26 hunts wrote:On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:[quote] My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3 Hyun sure dominated code A this season, and forgg sure domianted code S Hyun qualified for Code A after 3 months of playing and ForGG though he lost in code S has yet to drop a map in code A... Again I have to point out. GSL titles by former BW pros-9 Non bw pros- 1-2..... The article is saying the titles of mc, MVP and nestea are a farce as don't count because they are bad at BW. Hyun and ForGG switched and are so far outdoing Yugioh. MC, Nestea and MVP are being replaced in dominance by players with less BW programing experience. By law of empirical evidence--the OP is wrong. If you wish to introduce a seperate argument from the OP, go right ahead. But players in the top 100 of pro players switched over and failed to do better than last years "top level BW switchers" and last years top level BW switchers are being overtaken by players with even less BW experience. Once again, empirical, what's in front of us, hard evidence shows that the OP is wrong. Theorycrafting what if scenarios and pretending that the theorycrafting supersedes empirical evidence is faith based argumentation--no religion discussions on TL please. Hyun and Forgg were pretty bad at BW as well, apart from Forgg's one msl win. He faded away after that. Then I ask you to go on the Liquid database and count, by hand, the number of A Team players around during the time Hyun was playing. You'll see that Hyun is in the top 100 players in BW even assuming he was the absolute worse player possible imaginable amongst the A-Team players. Hyun and Forgg being "bad" and "not counting" is saying the top 300 players are "bad" and "don't count" which means the article is false and dis-proven. Is this whats it's come to? nitpicking at the 300 number? I'll tell you now even at the articles conception the number was never 300 so keep on poking at the hole that isn't there, you just come off as desperate. Competition in SC2 isn't that much of a farce if the number was 30 instead of 300, eh? Nope more like. 150. I noticed it too that it is rather pointless to argue with Lorkac and a few others when they don't understand basic concepts such as correlation. But that does not stop them from claiming it does not exist. And the constant strawmans like that pre-Flash BW claim. And the idea that time does not exist. It really seems to be the case that they just don't understand the argument. In fact, I'll go even further and claim they don't understand argument.
Actually, it seems to be quite the opposite. The side which is trying to defend BW players has failed to adequately explain why a one-time MSL champion is being outshadowed by BW B-teamers. How many players have ever won an MSL? Is it within the top 300? The top 150? More like the top 26. fOrGG's play hasn't dropped off because he's old, now. Anyone watching his stream can see that he's very fast and very good with his hands. The cleanness of his play is something to strive for. However, he has completely failed to dominate the competition above code A. Why is this? Why can someone with BW-level mechanics, good enough to win an MSL, not rise above SC2 B-teamers?
I'm going to hazard a guess that it's because SC2 is actually quite different in the skills it requires than BW, and that if some of the current BW A-teamers switch over, they'll be shocked at exactly how good low-APM players can be at SC2. If someone like Flash switches over, of COURSE he'll be good at SC2, because he's fucking Flash. It's pretty hard to match anyone with the Ultimate Weapon. However, if you honestly think that a random A-teamer can switch over and instantly become a bonjwa, you're clearly afflicted with a fundamental lack of understanding between the two games.
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EPT
