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On February 19 2012 10:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 10:02 fraktoasters wrote:On February 19 2012 09:59 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 09:51 fraktoasters wrote:On February 19 2012 09:47 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion. You do realize Nestea MVP MC MMA and almost every other 'big name Korean' sc2 player came from BW right? Hyun played the game for three months and smashed through the qualifiers granted he hasn't shown any results and looks meh. but still 3 months.. thats fucking impressive! Will Relevant BW pro's dominate? probably yes... will it be as big as the op and others suggest? Meh only time will tell... But to try and outright deny that BW experience has/can make SC2 champions is just insane... I agree this should probably be closed though... What people have been saying is that there isn't a trend where the better you are at BW the better you are at SC2, otherwise people like MVP, Hyun and ForGG would be winning everything, which they most definitely aren't right now. I'm sure there's a lot of things all the GSL champs have done like played football or iceskate since it's popular there, doesn't mean there's a correlation. And really, no one should care about what Hyun has done so far until he's shown real results. Like it's super sweet he was able to qualify for Code A so soon but how do you know other people haven't done the same? Hyun is about the only Code A player that has gotten hype for just qualifying and its ridiculous. Well to be fair... MC, Nestea, MMA, and MVP have pretty much been winning every GSL...... ForGG and Hyun have just switched over.... Yea ForGG was playing lots of ladder before, but its silly to think playing Ladder games is the same thing as training with a team. People hyped Hyun up so much because of how quickly he was able to make it through the qualifiers, not just because he did. They're are players who have been playing since Beta, with teams that can't make it through the qualifiers and he picked the game up in three months and got through. IMO that deserves a bit of hype, I agree it was way over blown. Give him and ForGG 2-3 more GSL seasons and if they aren't stomping nerds, THEN you can make your arguments against them. Jakji, MMA, Polt, and Gumiho/Alive/DRG/Genius (whoever wins this current GSL). And yes I get that there are a lot of bad players but that doesn't make Hyun good at SC2. MMA is from BW...... So you have atleast 9 GSL titles held by former BW pros to 2-3 from non BW players.... And actually a lot of good players are in Code B... Code A qualifiers are extremely difficult to get through. I never said he was amazing at Sc2... just saying for the time he has been playing he is good and shows A LOT of potential.
All but Polt are from BW. Well, I don't know about Gumiho.
On February 19 2012 09:51 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:47 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion. You do realize Nestea MVP MC MMA and almost every other 'big name Korean' sc2 player came from BW right? Hyun played the game for three months and smashed through the qualifiers granted he hasn't shown any results and looks meh. but still 3 months.. thats fucking impressive! Will Relevant BW pro's dominate? probably yes... will it be as big as the op and others suggest? Meh only time will tell... But to try and outright deny that BW experience has/can make SC2 champions is just insane... I agree this should probably be closed though... What people have been saying is that there isn't a trend where the better you are at BW the better you are at SC2, otherwise people like MVP, Hyun and ForGG would be winning everything, which they most definitely aren't right now. I'm sure there's a lot of things all the GSL champs have done like played football or iceskate since it's popular there, doesn't mean there's a correlation. And really, no one should care about what Hyun has done so far until he's shown real results. Like it's super sweet he was able to qualify for Code A so soon but how do you know other people haven't done the same? Hyun is about the only Code A player that has gotten hype for just qualifying and its ridiculous.
There is a trend. There is a correlation. It's just not perfect. Nobody ever argued it would be perfect. If you honestly claim there is no correlation or trend, I'm pretty sure you have never taken a statistics class and don't know what you are talking about.
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On February 19 2012 10:10 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:43 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 09:22 Grumbels wrote:
All the best foreigners are still former WC3 or BW players, there's not yet really a new generation of players to surpass their level of play - so much for the new generation always being better, but perhaps it will happen in a few more years. And when that happens, maybe the higher amount of exposure SC2 has compared to BW/WC3 and the greater acceptance of e-sports will let foreigners compete more with South Korea. The current Brood War pros are very good too, but I don't know if it really attracts new players still. I suppose it might, but I would still imagine it's a lot less than at its hayday. And with age a lot of the current generation of pros will retire and perhaps the influx of new talent in Korea will not be as good as the foreigner ones. Then there wouldn't really be an elephant, it'd be something that exists now, but would go away with time.
I guess it's fun to speculate, but that's all guesswork. The elephant is that the current scene is dominated by BW players who weren't relevant and that therefore the competition isn't what it could be as we are missing the relevant BW players. If SC2 grows is still played in 50 years while BW dies*, I don't think anyone is going to claim that it is still not what it could be because the BW players didn't play. So yeah, the elephant indeed will go away in time. On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion. Yes, yes, let us ignore the fact that every GSL champion but one has been a former BW pro. I think BW experience has already made people SC2 champions. Maybe next you'll deny the existence of gravity or that the Sun will rise tomorrow? The difference is I don't think their BW experience made them SC2 champions. Their effort, hard work and skill in SC2 made them SC2 champions. If their BW skill made them what they are in SC2, then we'd see a correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Maybe that correlation was there a year ago, but its getting weaker. Note: in about a week, we'll have 2 GSL champions in a row that didn't play BW at the pro level. I don't think their BW experience in and of itself made them champions either. Do you think that is what people have been arguing? If so, you have been lost. We are arguing that BW is a very competetive scene. If you were good in that scene, you had to have talent. It is that talent that makes people champions. We are also arguing that if you were very good in BW, A-class and above, you had way more talent. And therefore chances are you will do well in SC2. And so far it has been BW players, either B-teamers or top amateurs, who have dominated the scene, it is reasonable to think that A-teamers and S-class would do even better as they crushed the B-teamers and top amateurs. It is not their BW skill but their skill. BW did not make them good but the fact that they were good in BW. Just like I mentioned before. They just weren't good enough to be at the top in BW because the level of competition in there is higher. And of course over time the dominance of former BW players will grow weaker over time. New talent will come in, nobody denies that. I mean it's not like Flash played BW in his mother's womb. He too was a new talent at one some point. But the facts are that the best players in SC2 are BW players. And that the very best have almost all been in proteams and even those who weren't, were very good amateurs. There is a good reason to think that if the A-teamers would switch, they would wreak havoc. Jjakji was a BW amateur though. And out of the current four finalists at least Genius was in BW proteam. Two were at least amateurs. Gumiho I don't know of. You should make sure you have your facts correct.
>Jjakji was a BW amateur though
I also was a BW amateur, along with every Korean male from 2000-2010.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amateur
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On February 19 2012 10:25 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 10:10 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 09:43 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 09:22 Grumbels wrote:
All the best foreigners are still former WC3 or BW players, there's not yet really a new generation of players to surpass their level of play - so much for the new generation always being better, but perhaps it will happen in a few more years. And when that happens, maybe the higher amount of exposure SC2 has compared to BW/WC3 and the greater acceptance of e-sports will let foreigners compete more with South Korea. The current Brood War pros are very good too, but I don't know if it really attracts new players still. I suppose it might, but I would still imagine it's a lot less than at its hayday. And with age a lot of the current generation of pros will retire and perhaps the influx of new talent in Korea will not be as good as the foreigner ones. Then there wouldn't really be an elephant, it'd be something that exists now, but would go away with time.
I guess it's fun to speculate, but that's all guesswork. The elephant is that the current scene is dominated by BW players who weren't relevant and that therefore the competition isn't what it could be as we are missing the relevant BW players. If SC2 grows is still played in 50 years while BW dies*, I don't think anyone is going to claim that it is still not what it could be because the BW players didn't play. So yeah, the elephant indeed will go away in time. On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion. Yes, yes, let us ignore the fact that every GSL champion but one has been a former BW pro. I think BW experience has already made people SC2 champions. Maybe next you'll deny the existence of gravity or that the Sun will rise tomorrow? The difference is I don't think their BW experience made them SC2 champions. Their effort, hard work and skill in SC2 made them SC2 champions. If their BW skill made them what they are in SC2, then we'd see a correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Maybe that correlation was there a year ago, but its getting weaker. Note: in about a week, we'll have 2 GSL champions in a row that didn't play BW at the pro level. I don't think their BW experience in and of itself made them champions either. Do you think that is what people have been arguing? If so, you have been lost. We are arguing that BW is a very competetive scene. If you were good in that scene, you had to have talent. It is that talent that makes people champions. We are also arguing that if you were very good in BW, A-class and above, you had way more talent. And therefore chances are you will do well in SC2. And so far it has been BW players, either B-teamers or top amateurs, who have dominated the scene, it is reasonable to think that A-teamers and S-class would do even better as they crushed the B-teamers and top amateurs. It is not their BW skill but their skill. BW did not make them good but the fact that they were good in BW. Just like I mentioned before. They just weren't good enough to be at the top in BW because the level of competition in there is higher. And of course over time the dominance of former BW players will grow weaker over time. New talent will come in, nobody denies that. I mean it's not like Flash played BW in his mother's womb. He too was a new talent at one some point. But the facts are that the best players in SC2 are BW players. And that the very best have almost all been in proteams and even those who weren't, were very good amateurs. There is a good reason to think that if the A-teamers would switch, they would wreak havoc. Jjakji was a BW amateur though. And out of the current four finalists at least Genius was in BW proteam. Two were at least amateurs. Gumiho I don't know of. You should make sure you have your facts correct. >Jjakji was a BW amateur though I also was a BW amateur, along with every Korean male from 2000-2010. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amateur
When I say amateur, I don't mean just that they played BW, nor does anyone else. That is a nice way to try an misrepresent our argument though! When we say amateurs we say that they were competetive amateurs, that is, among the best as amateurs. Practise partners for the proteams and so on. Potential B-teamers.
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On February 19 2012 10:25 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 10:10 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 09:43 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 09:22 Grumbels wrote:
All the best foreigners are still former WC3 or BW players, there's not yet really a new generation of players to surpass their level of play - so much for the new generation always being better, but perhaps it will happen in a few more years. And when that happens, maybe the higher amount of exposure SC2 has compared to BW/WC3 and the greater acceptance of e-sports will let foreigners compete more with South Korea. The current Brood War pros are very good too, but I don't know if it really attracts new players still. I suppose it might, but I would still imagine it's a lot less than at its hayday. And with age a lot of the current generation of pros will retire and perhaps the influx of new talent in Korea will not be as good as the foreigner ones. Then there wouldn't really be an elephant, it'd be something that exists now, but would go away with time.
I guess it's fun to speculate, but that's all guesswork. The elephant is that the current scene is dominated by BW players who weren't relevant and that therefore the competition isn't what it could be as we are missing the relevant BW players. If SC2 grows is still played in 50 years while BW dies*, I don't think anyone is going to claim that it is still not what it could be because the BW players didn't play. So yeah, the elephant indeed will go away in time. On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion. Yes, yes, let us ignore the fact that every GSL champion but one has been a former BW pro. I think BW experience has already made people SC2 champions. Maybe next you'll deny the existence of gravity or that the Sun will rise tomorrow? The difference is I don't think their BW experience made them SC2 champions. Their effort, hard work and skill in SC2 made them SC2 champions. If their BW skill made them what they are in SC2, then we'd see a correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Maybe that correlation was there a year ago, but its getting weaker. Note: in about a week, we'll have 2 GSL champions in a row that didn't play BW at the pro level. I don't think their BW experience in and of itself made them champions either. Do you think that is what people have been arguing? If so, you have been lost. We are arguing that BW is a very competetive scene. If you were good in that scene, you had to have talent. It is that talent that makes people champions. We are also arguing that if you were very good in BW, A-class and above, you had way more talent. And therefore chances are you will do well in SC2. And so far it has been BW players, either B-teamers or top amateurs, who have dominated the scene, it is reasonable to think that A-teamers and S-class would do even better as they crushed the B-teamers and top amateurs. It is not their BW skill but their skill. BW did not make them good but the fact that they were good in BW. Just like I mentioned before. They just weren't good enough to be at the top in BW because the level of competition in there is higher. And of course over time the dominance of former BW players will grow weaker over time. New talent will come in, nobody denies that. I mean it's not like Flash played BW in his mother's womb. He too was a new talent at one some point. But the facts are that the best players in SC2 are BW players. And that the very best have almost all been in proteams and even those who weren't, were very good amateurs. There is a good reason to think that if the A-teamers would switch, they would wreak havoc. Jjakji was a BW amateur though. And out of the current four finalists at least Genius was in BW proteam. Two were at least amateurs. Gumiho I don't know of. You should make sure you have your facts correct. >Jjakji was a BW amateur though I also was a BW amateur, along with every Korean male from 2000-2010. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amateur
most korean brood war amateurs live in team houses and have coaching. do you?
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On February 19 2012 10:59 OopsOopsBaby wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 10:25 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 10:10 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 09:43 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 09:22 Grumbels wrote:
All the best foreigners are still former WC3 or BW players, there's not yet really a new generation of players to surpass their level of play - so much for the new generation always being better, but perhaps it will happen in a few more years. And when that happens, maybe the higher amount of exposure SC2 has compared to BW/WC3 and the greater acceptance of e-sports will let foreigners compete more with South Korea. The current Brood War pros are very good too, but I don't know if it really attracts new players still. I suppose it might, but I would still imagine it's a lot less than at its hayday. And with age a lot of the current generation of pros will retire and perhaps the influx of new talent in Korea will not be as good as the foreigner ones. Then there wouldn't really be an elephant, it'd be something that exists now, but would go away with time.
I guess it's fun to speculate, but that's all guesswork. The elephant is that the current scene is dominated by BW players who weren't relevant and that therefore the competition isn't what it could be as we are missing the relevant BW players. If SC2 grows is still played in 50 years while BW dies*, I don't think anyone is going to claim that it is still not what it could be because the BW players didn't play. So yeah, the elephant indeed will go away in time. On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion. Yes, yes, let us ignore the fact that every GSL champion but one has been a former BW pro. I think BW experience has already made people SC2 champions. Maybe next you'll deny the existence of gravity or that the Sun will rise tomorrow? The difference is I don't think their BW experience made them SC2 champions. Their effort, hard work and skill in SC2 made them SC2 champions. If their BW skill made them what they are in SC2, then we'd see a correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Maybe that correlation was there a year ago, but its getting weaker. Note: in about a week, we'll have 2 GSL champions in a row that didn't play BW at the pro level. I don't think their BW experience in and of itself made them champions either. Do you think that is what people have been arguing? If so, you have been lost. We are arguing that BW is a very competetive scene. If you were good in that scene, you had to have talent. It is that talent that makes people champions. We are also arguing that if you were very good in BW, A-class and above, you had way more talent. And therefore chances are you will do well in SC2. And so far it has been BW players, either B-teamers or top amateurs, who have dominated the scene, it is reasonable to think that A-teamers and S-class would do even better as they crushed the B-teamers and top amateurs. It is not their BW skill but their skill. BW did not make them good but the fact that they were good in BW. Just like I mentioned before. They just weren't good enough to be at the top in BW because the level of competition in there is higher. And of course over time the dominance of former BW players will grow weaker over time. New talent will come in, nobody denies that. I mean it's not like Flash played BW in his mother's womb. He too was a new talent at one some point. But the facts are that the best players in SC2 are BW players. And that the very best have almost all been in proteams and even those who weren't, were very good amateurs. There is a good reason to think that if the A-teamers would switch, they would wreak havoc. Jjakji was a BW amateur though. And out of the current four finalists at least Genius was in BW proteam. Two were at least amateurs. Gumiho I don't know of. You should make sure you have your facts correct. >Jjakji was a BW amateur though I also was a BW amateur, along with every Korean male from 2000-2010. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amateur most korean brood war amateurs live in team houses and have coaching. do you?
lol that's irrelevant.
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On February 19 2012 09:43 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:36 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 09:22 Grumbels wrote:
All the best foreigners are still former WC3 or BW players, there's not yet really a new generation of players to surpass their level of play - so much for the new generation always being better, but perhaps it will happen in a few more years. And when that happens, maybe the higher amount of exposure SC2 has compared to BW/WC3 and the greater acceptance of e-sports will let foreigners compete more with South Korea. The current Brood War pros are very good too, but I don't know if it really attracts new players still. I suppose it might, but I would still imagine it's a lot less than at its hayday. And with age a lot of the current generation of pros will retire and perhaps the influx of new talent in Korea will not be as good as the foreigner ones. Then there wouldn't really be an elephant, it'd be something that exists now, but would go away with time.
I guess it's fun to speculate, but that's all guesswork. The elephant is that the current scene is dominated by BW players who weren't relevant and that therefore the competition isn't what it could be as we are missing the relevant BW players. If SC2 grows is still played in 50 years while BW dies*, I don't think anyone is going to claim that it is still not what it could be because the BW players didn't play. So yeah, the elephant indeed will go away in time. On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion. Yes, yes, let us ignore the fact that every GSL champion but one has been a former BW pro. I think BW experience has already made people SC2 champions. Maybe next you'll deny the existence of gravity or that the Sun will rise tomorrow? The difference is I don't think their BW experience made them SC2 champions. Their effort, hard work and skill in SC2 made them SC2 champions. If their BW skill made them what they are in SC2, then we'd see a correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Maybe that correlation was there a year ago, but its getting weaker. Note: in about a week, we'll have 2 GSL champions in a row that didn't play BW at the pro level.
Not if Genius wins. DRG was also at the CJ house, so that's pretty damn close to being a BW pro. You realize what you are arguing here is that experience means nothing? Hurp durp how many top level players can you name without prior RTS experience? Fact is, playing BW at a professional level is going to prepare you far better than playing any other game. Being a successful BW pro takes a ridiculous amount of work, more so than what current players put into SC2. Those who have learned to accept that kind of work-ethic are obviously going to do very well if they switch so long as they continue at that pace.
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On February 19 2012 11:16 Nightshade_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 10:59 OopsOopsBaby wrote:On February 19 2012 10:25 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 10:10 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 09:43 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 09:22 Grumbels wrote:
All the best foreigners are still former WC3 or BW players, there's not yet really a new generation of players to surpass their level of play - so much for the new generation always being better, but perhaps it will happen in a few more years. And when that happens, maybe the higher amount of exposure SC2 has compared to BW/WC3 and the greater acceptance of e-sports will let foreigners compete more with South Korea. The current Brood War pros are very good too, but I don't know if it really attracts new players still. I suppose it might, but I would still imagine it's a lot less than at its hayday. And with age a lot of the current generation of pros will retire and perhaps the influx of new talent in Korea will not be as good as the foreigner ones. Then there wouldn't really be an elephant, it'd be something that exists now, but would go away with time.
I guess it's fun to speculate, but that's all guesswork. The elephant is that the current scene is dominated by BW players who weren't relevant and that therefore the competition isn't what it could be as we are missing the relevant BW players. If SC2 grows is still played in 50 years while BW dies*, I don't think anyone is going to claim that it is still not what it could be because the BW players didn't play. So yeah, the elephant indeed will go away in time. On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion. Yes, yes, let us ignore the fact that every GSL champion but one has been a former BW pro. I think BW experience has already made people SC2 champions. Maybe next you'll deny the existence of gravity or that the Sun will rise tomorrow? The difference is I don't think their BW experience made them SC2 champions. Their effort, hard work and skill in SC2 made them SC2 champions. If their BW skill made them what they are in SC2, then we'd see a correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Maybe that correlation was there a year ago, but its getting weaker. Note: in about a week, we'll have 2 GSL champions in a row that didn't play BW at the pro level. I don't think their BW experience in and of itself made them champions either. Do you think that is what people have been arguing? If so, you have been lost. We are arguing that BW is a very competetive scene. If you were good in that scene, you had to have talent. It is that talent that makes people champions. We are also arguing that if you were very good in BW, A-class and above, you had way more talent. And therefore chances are you will do well in SC2. And so far it has been BW players, either B-teamers or top amateurs, who have dominated the scene, it is reasonable to think that A-teamers and S-class would do even better as they crushed the B-teamers and top amateurs. It is not their BW skill but their skill. BW did not make them good but the fact that they were good in BW. Just like I mentioned before. They just weren't good enough to be at the top in BW because the level of competition in there is higher. And of course over time the dominance of former BW players will grow weaker over time. New talent will come in, nobody denies that. I mean it's not like Flash played BW in his mother's womb. He too was a new talent at one some point. But the facts are that the best players in SC2 are BW players. And that the very best have almost all been in proteams and even those who weren't, were very good amateurs. There is a good reason to think that if the A-teamers would switch, they would wreak havoc. Jjakji was a BW amateur though. And out of the current four finalists at least Genius was in BW proteam. Two were at least amateurs. Gumiho I don't know of. You should make sure you have your facts correct. >Jjakji was a BW amateur though I also was a BW amateur, along with every Korean male from 2000-2010. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amateur most korean brood war amateurs live in team houses and have coaching. do you? lol that's irrelevant.
Hahah, this thread's pretty great now. Devolved into SC2 players thinking "BW ameteur" means random korean kids playing fastest map at the local pc bang with his friends.
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On February 19 2012 11:16 Nightshade_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 10:59 OopsOopsBaby wrote:On February 19 2012 10:25 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 10:10 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 09:43 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 09:22 Grumbels wrote:
All the best foreigners are still former WC3 or BW players, there's not yet really a new generation of players to surpass their level of play - so much for the new generation always being better, but perhaps it will happen in a few more years. And when that happens, maybe the higher amount of exposure SC2 has compared to BW/WC3 and the greater acceptance of e-sports will let foreigners compete more with South Korea. The current Brood War pros are very good too, but I don't know if it really attracts new players still. I suppose it might, but I would still imagine it's a lot less than at its hayday. And with age a lot of the current generation of pros will retire and perhaps the influx of new talent in Korea will not be as good as the foreigner ones. Then there wouldn't really be an elephant, it'd be something that exists now, but would go away with time.
I guess it's fun to speculate, but that's all guesswork. The elephant is that the current scene is dominated by BW players who weren't relevant and that therefore the competition isn't what it could be as we are missing the relevant BW players. If SC2 grows is still played in 50 years while BW dies*, I don't think anyone is going to claim that it is still not what it could be because the BW players didn't play. So yeah, the elephant indeed will go away in time. On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion. Yes, yes, let us ignore the fact that every GSL champion but one has been a former BW pro. I think BW experience has already made people SC2 champions. Maybe next you'll deny the existence of gravity or that the Sun will rise tomorrow? The difference is I don't think their BW experience made them SC2 champions. Their effort, hard work and skill in SC2 made them SC2 champions. If their BW skill made them what they are in SC2, then we'd see a correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Maybe that correlation was there a year ago, but its getting weaker. Note: in about a week, we'll have 2 GSL champions in a row that didn't play BW at the pro level. I don't think their BW experience in and of itself made them champions either. Do you think that is what people have been arguing? If so, you have been lost. We are arguing that BW is a very competetive scene. If you were good in that scene, you had to have talent. It is that talent that makes people champions. We are also arguing that if you were very good in BW, A-class and above, you had way more talent. And therefore chances are you will do well in SC2. And so far it has been BW players, either B-teamers or top amateurs, who have dominated the scene, it is reasonable to think that A-teamers and S-class would do even better as they crushed the B-teamers and top amateurs. It is not their BW skill but their skill. BW did not make them good but the fact that they were good in BW. Just like I mentioned before. They just weren't good enough to be at the top in BW because the level of competition in there is higher. And of course over time the dominance of former BW players will grow weaker over time. New talent will come in, nobody denies that. I mean it's not like Flash played BW in his mother's womb. He too was a new talent at one some point. But the facts are that the best players in SC2 are BW players. And that the very best have almost all been in proteams and even those who weren't, were very good amateurs. There is a good reason to think that if the A-teamers would switch, they would wreak havoc. Jjakji was a BW amateur though. And out of the current four finalists at least Genius was in BW proteam. Two were at least amateurs. Gumiho I don't know of. You should make sure you have your facts correct. >Jjakji was a BW amateur though I also was a BW amateur, along with every Korean male from 2000-2010. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amateur most korean brood war amateurs live in team houses and have coaching. do you? lol that's irrelevant.
lol how is living and training in a team house and getting coaching irrelevant? Are you serious? Amateur korean BW players> Pro foreign BW pros....
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My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before.
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Stop saying BW pros who switched over are only good because of the immense practice they put in prior to whatever achievements they've attained in SC2. (like fOrGG)
A huge separation between BW pros and SC2 is the amount of determination and hardwork they put in, an amount that SC2 pros would probably mention in their interviews about how hard they work, but BW pros would take as a prerequisite and probably not bother stating.
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On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before.
No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious?
Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room.....
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On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room.....
Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement.
I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3
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On February 19 2012 11:16 Nightshade_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 10:59 OopsOopsBaby wrote:On February 19 2012 10:25 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 10:10 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 09:43 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 09:22 Grumbels wrote:
All the best foreigners are still former WC3 or BW players, there's not yet really a new generation of players to surpass their level of play - so much for the new generation always being better, but perhaps it will happen in a few more years. And when that happens, maybe the higher amount of exposure SC2 has compared to BW/WC3 and the greater acceptance of e-sports will let foreigners compete more with South Korea. The current Brood War pros are very good too, but I don't know if it really attracts new players still. I suppose it might, but I would still imagine it's a lot less than at its hayday. And with age a lot of the current generation of pros will retire and perhaps the influx of new talent in Korea will not be as good as the foreigner ones. Then there wouldn't really be an elephant, it'd be something that exists now, but would go away with time.
I guess it's fun to speculate, but that's all guesswork. The elephant is that the current scene is dominated by BW players who weren't relevant and that therefore the competition isn't what it could be as we are missing the relevant BW players. If SC2 grows is still played in 50 years while BW dies*, I don't think anyone is going to claim that it is still not what it could be because the BW players didn't play. So yeah, the elephant indeed will go away in time. On February 19 2012 09:22 dsousa wrote:
They should never lock this thread, its good we have a written record of the "Cult of BW" that exists and to the extent that the TL community has been brainwashed by it.
Its like any mass delusion - the best part is watching people defend it, fight for it, and finally having to accept it as false. I guess if I was on the other side of the argument, I'd want it closed too. Everyday, we get farther from the scenario the OP suggested, not closer to it.
The writings on the wall on this one.... BW experience isn't going to make you a SC2 champion. Yes, yes, let us ignore the fact that every GSL champion but one has been a former BW pro. I think BW experience has already made people SC2 champions. Maybe next you'll deny the existence of gravity or that the Sun will rise tomorrow? The difference is I don't think their BW experience made them SC2 champions. Their effort, hard work and skill in SC2 made them SC2 champions. If their BW skill made them what they are in SC2, then we'd see a correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Maybe that correlation was there a year ago, but its getting weaker. Note: in about a week, we'll have 2 GSL champions in a row that didn't play BW at the pro level. I don't think their BW experience in and of itself made them champions either. Do you think that is what people have been arguing? If so, you have been lost. We are arguing that BW is a very competetive scene. If you were good in that scene, you had to have talent. It is that talent that makes people champions. We are also arguing that if you were very good in BW, A-class and above, you had way more talent. And therefore chances are you will do well in SC2. And so far it has been BW players, either B-teamers or top amateurs, who have dominated the scene, it is reasonable to think that A-teamers and S-class would do even better as they crushed the B-teamers and top amateurs. It is not their BW skill but their skill. BW did not make them good but the fact that they were good in BW. Just like I mentioned before. They just weren't good enough to be at the top in BW because the level of competition in there is higher. And of course over time the dominance of former BW players will grow weaker over time. New talent will come in, nobody denies that. I mean it's not like Flash played BW in his mother's womb. He too was a new talent at one some point. But the facts are that the best players in SC2 are BW players. And that the very best have almost all been in proteams and even those who weren't, were very good amateurs. There is a good reason to think that if the A-teamers would switch, they would wreak havoc. Jjakji was a BW amateur though. And out of the current four finalists at least Genius was in BW proteam. Two were at least amateurs. Gumiho I don't know of. You should make sure you have your facts correct. >Jjakji was a BW amateur though I also was a BW amateur, along with every Korean male from 2000-2010. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amateur most korean brood war amateurs live in team houses and have coaching. do you? lol that's irrelevant.
NO you are IRRELEPHANT!
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On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3
My evidence is
1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....)
2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating...
Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir  <3
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On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room.....
How do you know this are you just saying random things and hoping that it is true?
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On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3 My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3
Hyun sure dominated code A this season, and forgg sure domianted code S 
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On February 19 2012 13:26 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3 My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3 Hyun sure dominated code A this season, and forgg sure domianted code S
Hyun qualified for Code A after 3 months of playing and ForGG though he lost in code S has yet to drop a map in code A...
Again I have to point out. GSL titles by former BW pros-9 Non bw pros- 1-2.....
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On February 19 2012 13:27 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 13:26 hunts wrote:On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3 My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3 Hyun sure dominated code A this season, and forgg sure domianted code S Hyun qualified for Code A after 3 months of playing and ForGG though he lost in code S has yet to drop a map in code A... Again I have to point out. GSL titles by former BW pros-9 Non bw pros- 1-2.....
And those same BW pros are the same ones who the OP says are awful and will be dominated by B level BW players, but yet who are still leagues ahead of players like forgg and hyun. Kif, we have a conundrum!
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On February 19 2012 13:23 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 13:15 dsousa wrote:On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... Well that right there is why this thread persists. Because I strongly disagree with your last statement. I need evidence, I can't just take your word on it. I don't think I'm seeing it yet. I CAN'T SEE THE ELEPHANT!!!! :D <3 My evidence is 1. they obviously have great rts skills overall(Or else they wouldn't be pros....) 2. B class players who have already switched over are kicking ass and dominating... Don't really need any more evidence do I? XD You shall see it soon enough good sir <3
Actually you do, you can claim they will be very good but what you are saying they will be as good or better then MVP.
Those are 2 different and no, you don't have proof since so far it didn't happened.
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On February 19 2012 13:23 MONXY FIST wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 13:07 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 19 2012 12:49 dsousa wrote:
My bad... I didn't realize the words BW in front of the word amateur changed the meaning. Someone should notify Websters!
I don't live in the BW bubble... but perhaps you are looking for the word "semi-pro"?
This is all just terminology anyways, the point is players with former BW PRO match experience are not outperforming those with "less"/amateur/semi-pro experience. Being great at BW does not gaurentee you will be great at SC2. There IS NO ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
As is seen by the TLPD ELO rankings and the current GSL results. BW is less represented in those results than ever before. No one is saying its BW pro MATCH experience is why they will/are dominating. Its their BW skills mixed with their practice styles and determination that makes them so good. And even without 'semi pros' representing BW (Which imo they should) the BW pros still are owning everything in the gsl. MC-2 GSL titles, Nestea-3 MVP-3 MMA-1 Non BW pro's-1-2? how is that not domination in your eyes? So because in one season the former BW pro's aren't in the finals = BW having nothing to do with players success? You actually can't be serious? Right now they're probably around 100+(If you count B- teamers and semi pros) BW players with potential to be as good as if not better then MVP that could switch over... There is definitely an elephant in the room..... How do you know this are you just saying random things and hoping that it is true?
the number maybe off but it is a large number... when/if they switch also unknown Lots of hints have been pointing to sooner then later though.... the point is they are all as good some better then MVP was at BW have amazing RTS skills and game sense, and insane work ethic... so no I am not saying random things and hoping they are true.
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EPT
