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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
On February 14 2012 15:02 Sawamura wrote: Actually KT.Violet has reach GM rank in NA and is high master in Korea . Say's so much about the pro's transitioning in to a much simpler game . Violet's a bit of a special case since he got there while bedridden with cancer, but yeah, that amused me too. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1599 Posts
On February 14 2012 07:24 TrickyGilligan wrote: Sorry, wasn't actually trying to call you an asshole, since you didn't actually say anything to insult Boxer. I was just pointing out that the common sentiment is that criticizing Boxer is hurting esports, while criticizing SC2 play is acceptable. I feel that there's some cognitive dissonance going on when people are able to rationalize both of those stances into one argument. Also, I'm not sure you appreciate how closely related strategy and mechanics are. There's no way that the current builds are going to stay competitive if people start playing better. If one player is able to drop in more places or have more units at an early timing, all other builds are going to have to change to reflect that reality. Saying that the current strategies could survive such a skill increase is simply not realistic. Also, I think we can all agree that the level of SC2 play is only going to increase as the game matures. The point I'm trying to make though is that such an evolution isn't bad in any way, it's just something that happens as people figure the game out and get better at playing it. The question then is who will continue to advance the level of play in SC2,. Will it be the current SC2 pros, the BW pros, or a new generation of gamers? There's really nothing to do other than wait and see, but the premise of this article is that it will be the BW pros, which is looking less and less likely based on all the evidence we've seen. I don't think most people think that current SC2 pros or SCBW early years pros are assholes were bad for winning how they did. They won with the best of their knowledge at the time, but as we saw with BW there was a lot of room to go. You mistook what I said from what I read in your second paragraph. I'm not saying the strategy won't evolve and change, but if it indeed did stay the exact same, but was played much better it would be fine because the games would be better. If the strategies change I still want the same result which I think will happen, the current level of games again will look like Open Season Final, yup make whoever wins this season look like dog shit. You keep saying it won't be the BW pros, but which GSL winner isn't an ex-bw pro? They weren't the best, but they took their BW knowledge to hammer out SC2 and gain a lead over the newcommers with no background. The sentiment is that it will be BW pros yes, and most likely it will be, they won't be the only ones at the top, but they will probably be the majority. Also if you're claiming the evidence is that Nada Boxer JulyZerg and Forgg aren't winning GSL matches that was a bandwagon that everyone jumped on before thinking. Even when ForGG was winning I called that his early timings were leading him to success, not actual skill. He isn't the ForGG that one a MSL with brilliant follow throughs for his pressure builds, but the ForGG that did a 2 factory timing against every protoss at the end of his carrer resulting in.... ForGG: gg | ||
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lottopk
Korea (North)33 Posts
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Djagulingu
Germany3605 Posts
On February 14 2012 04:46 Taiki wrote: Wait. I'm pretty sure that MMA was on SKT (remember a interview where Oov said that he was sad that MMA switched to SC2) , according to Liquidpedia DRG was on CJ, MvP was on Woongjin and Nestea was on KT. The only one I couldn't find any BW info on was Leenock. I don't really support any side, but right is right. As for my own opinion. I think that if all the BW players switched at the time when this article was writting, most of them would've been the top of SC2 along with those who were already playing the game and the best of the best at BW would've settled comfortably in top10 of SC2. I also don't think there is enough room (in SC2) for a player like Flash to dominate a player like MvP as hard as he would've done in BW. MMA was an SKT1 B teamer under the id Dream.t)1988 or something like that. DRG (and also Keen) was on CJ. Nestea was a KT 2v2 player who had to stop his active BW career after 2v2 was removed from Proleague. Mvp (and GanZi too) was a Woongjin Terran (Woongjin Terrans were Proleague's laughing stocks when these 2 were playing for Woongjin). Sage, sC and Leenock were amateurs who have replays of them getting roflstomped by current/ex BW pros (they are funny too, sC's replays especially. He makes mistakes that I probably wouldn't do. Leenock got roflstomped by IdrA. Sage's replay wasn't that bad, he actually showed some hope from time to time but it was still one sided). LosirA was Hwaseung OZ B-Teamer. So it's not like they started playing RTS with SC2 and are so fucking successful. They started playing SC2 because they don't/didn't make the cut for BW. | ||
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therockmanxx
Peru1174 Posts
Even Violet can pull it off and his is not in perfect health condition or in any team house =P | ||
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DemonDeacon
United States158 Posts
just from watching VODs it's pretty clear code s players put a lot of time and preparation into their games, especially in the later matches. Code A is also filled with hungry new potentials who probably work day-in day-out trying to make it to code S. I have been very happy to see many previously un-known players who probably worked their arses off to make it to code s. I also don't think it's fair to bash such a young game that is still being mapped out... brood war pros have +10 years of innovation to base their practice on... the meta game moves so fast in sc2 it's almost impossible to keep up. if you watch "pro" replays of BW in 2000/2001 it's incredible how bad the games are... any amateur today with a knowledge of the current meta game could probably stomp a pro that played like they did back then. Also, if what you are saying was true, I think we'd see a lot more of those 300 pro gamers from BW switching over. Especially those at the bottom of the 300, the potential to make a lot of money is too great. I really think that sc2 is a different game. it is much more micro-oriented and relies a lot more on strategy/mind games than a meta-game that limits the total build orders to 10. In some ways this can lead to a lot of lame build-order wins but it also leads to some amazing games of epic strategy and quick-thinking. Having BW skills would def. put you ahead of the curve to start but when it comes down to the mechanics of the game, they are truly different. I would absolutely love to see someone like flash switch over though, that kid is a god. having said that... what else would explain so many pros using only 1-2 hotkeys for their whole army? : / also you have a much broader understanding of the pro scene than i do so take my opinion with a grain of salt | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On February 17 2012 09:52 DemonDeacon wrote: i don't know how much i agree with this... I think you make an interesting point but i hate to see the sc2 pro scene bashed so hard... just from watching VODs it's pretty clear code s players put a lot of time and preparation into their games, especially in the later matches. Code A is also filled with hungry new potentials who probably work day-in day-out trying to make it to code S. I have been very happy to see many previously un-known players who probably worked their arses off to make it to code s. I also don't think it's fair to bash such a young game that is still being mapped out... brood war pros have +10 years of innovation to base their practice on... the meta game moves so fast in sc2 it's almost impossible to keep up. if you watch "pro" replays of BW in 2000/2001 it's incredible how bad the games are... any amateur today with a knowledge of the current meta game could probably stomp a pro that played like they did back then. Also, if what you are saying was true, I think we'd see a lot more of those 300 pro gamers from BW switching over. Especially those at the bottom of the 300, the potential to make a lot of money is too great. I really think that sc2 is a different game. it is much more micro-oriented and relies a lot more on strategy/mind games than a meta-game that limits the total build orders to 10. In some ways this can lead to a lot of lame build-order wins but it also leads to some amazing games of epic strategy and quick-thinking. Having BW skills would def. put you ahead of the curve to start but when it comes down to the mechanics of the game, they are truly different. I would absolutely love to see someone like flash switch over though, that kid is a god. having said that... what else would explain so many pros using only 1-2 hotkeys for their whole army? : / also you have a much broader understanding of the pro scene than i do so take my opinion with a grain of salt Also, the things you brought up against the article have already been refuted. It is a long thread after all! | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 17 2012 20:19 Squeegy wrote: Also, the things you brought up against the article have already been refuted. It is a long thread after all! yeah... like the things that were brought up against the things he wrote were refuted. ;-) | ||
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huehuehuehue
Estonia455 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:02 Djagulingu wrote: MMA was an SKT1 B teamer under the id Dream.t)1988 or something like that. DRG (and also Keen) was on CJ. Nestea was a KT 2v2 player who had to stop his active BW career after 2v2 was removed from Proleague. Mvp (and GanZi too) was a Woongjin Terran (Woongjin Terrans were Proleague's laughing stocks when these 2 were playing for Woongjin). Sage, sC and Leenock were amateurs who have replays of them getting roflstomped by current/ex BW pros (they are funny too, sC's replays especially. He makes mistakes that I probably wouldn't do. Leenock got roflstomped by IdrA. Sage's replay wasn't that bad, he actually showed some hope from time to time but it was still one sided). LosirA was Hwaseung OZ B-Teamer. So it's not like they started playing RTS with SC2 and are so fucking successful. They started playing SC2 because they don't/didn't make the cut for BW. DRG was just a practice partner for CJ, dunno about Keen. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:02 Djagulingu wrote: MMA was an SKT1 B teamer under the id Dream.t)1988 or something like that. DRG (and also Keen) was on CJ. Nestea was a KT 2v2 player who had to stop his active BW career after 2v2 was removed from Proleague. Mvp (and GanZi too) was a Woongjin Terran (Woongjin Terrans were Proleague's laughing stocks when these 2 were playing for Woongjin). Sage, sC and Leenock were amateurs who have replays of them getting roflstomped by current/ex BW pros (they are funny too, sC's replays especially. He makes mistakes that I probably wouldn't do. Leenock got roflstomped by IdrA. Sage's replay wasn't that bad, he actually showed some hope from time to time but it was still one sided). LosirA was Hwaseung OZ B-Teamer. So it's not like they started playing RTS with SC2 and are so fucking successful. They started playing SC2 because they don't/didn't make the cut for BW. Leenock and sC are 16 now. I guess those replays are from when they were 12-13? Maybe, just maybe they weren't as good then? I'm pretty sure the top rung of BW would place at the top in SC2 but people need to realize that just because someone didn't do well years ago as a BW pro doesn't mean they didn't have potential. As a ex pro swimmer i can tell you that some of the guys i crushed when i was 14-16 are now competing in european and world championships, so skill can both increase and decrease with age/determination/practise change. | ||
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Kleinmuuhg
Vanuatu4091 Posts
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dsousa
United States1363 Posts
1. DRG - 0 career BW pro matches 2. MMA - 5 career BW pro matches 3. MVP - 77 career BW pro matches 4. MarineKing - 0 career pro matches 5. aLive - 0 career BW pro matches This article would have you think that the SC2 pro's with more BW experience would be working their way UP this list, but instead its the opposite. BW Pro gamers are falling from the top of SC2, not taking it over. Look at the top 4 or even 8 in the GSL, any BW elephants there? Parting? Gumiho? Genius? | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On February 19 2012 06:48 dsousa wrote: Ok, new top 5 in the TLPD 1. DRG - 0 career BW pro matches 2. MMA - 5 career BW pro matches 3. MVP - 77 career BW pro matches 4. MarineKing - 0 career pro matches 5. aLive - 0 career BW pro matches This article would have you think that the SC2 pro's with more BW experience would be working their way UP this list, but instead its the opposite. BW Pro gamers are falling from the top of SC2, not taking it over. Look at the top 4 or even 8 in the GSL, any BW elephants there? Parting? Gumiho? Genius? I am not sure it works well in your favour that you try to argue against the effect of BW by showing that the scene is still dominated by BW players. | ||
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dsousa
United States1363 Posts
On February 19 2012 07:19 Squeegy wrote: I am not sure it works well in your favour that you try to argue against the effect of BW by showing that the scene is still dominated by BW players. I'm sure every Korean male alive between 2000-2010 played BW.... but their success or lack of success has not carried over to sc2. | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On February 19 2012 07:19 Squeegy wrote: I am not sure it works well in your favour that you try to argue against the effect of BW by showing that the scene is still dominated by BW players. Yup look at all those BW pros dominating the SC2 still, as you just said. Man, that DRG guy must've been the best BW player ever! I | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On February 19 2012 08:33 hunts wrote: Yup look at all those BW pros dominating the SC2 still, as you just said. Man, that DRG guy must've been the best BW player ever! I Yes, DRG too was a BW player. But you misunderstand! He is dominating in SC2 because the relevant pros play BW and not SC2. | ||
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dsousa
United States1363 Posts
On February 19 2012 08:42 Squeegy wrote: Yes, DRG too was a BW player. But you misunderstand! He is dominating in SC2 because the relevant pros play BW and not SC2. Is there anyone who wasn't a BW player? Everyone in KR played BW correct? The point is..... DRG did not play at the PRO level.... not even 1 game. Nor did MKP, Alive, Gumiho, Parting, Genius. They played BW.... they also ate Kim Chi.... that doesn't mean there is a corollary to SC2 results. By your rational, is there anyone in KR that could change your mind? I don't think so, because all able bodied males played BW in KR... and if one of them becomes the SC2 king, you'll just say "see.... he played BW" | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On February 19 2012 08:42 Squeegy wrote: Yes, DRG too was a BW player. But you misunderstand! He is dominating in SC2 because the relevant pros play BW and not SC2. Yes I get it, players like flash and jaedong are gods. I love them, you love them, everyone loves them. There is no dispute that if players like bisu, flash, jaedong were to switch over they would do very well, and probably win at least some meaningful titles. What people are arguing, is ths idea that "there are 300 pros and semi pros in BW who can switch over at any time and dominate the scene within a couple months." I think this part has already been proven false, by people who are better than just top 300 at BW switching over and not dominating in any way. | ||
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Phemtos
Canada163 Posts
On February 19 2012 06:48 dsousa wrote: Ok, new top 5 in the TLPD 1. DRG - 0 career BW pro matches 2. MMA - 5 career BW pro matches 3. MVP - 77 career BW pro matches 4. MarineKing - 0 career pro matches 5. aLive - 0 career BW pro matches This article would have you think that the SC2 pro's with more BW experience would be working their way UP this list, but instead its the opposite. BW Pro gamers are falling from the top of SC2, not taking it over. Look at the top 4 or even 8 in the GSL, any BW elephants there? Parting? Gumiho? Genius? I am not sure if this is all that much related but stephano 2-0'd hyunn a couple of days ago in the NASL qualifier. Stephano is like the arguably the best foreigner at the moment and he has never touched SC:BW, he's a WC3 player. | ||
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Nightshade_
United States549 Posts
TL;DR BW Diehards: good people only still play BW. People who switched over are only bad because they weren't relevant pros. People who are dominating only are because relevant pros haven't switched. So essentially BW pros are saying Boxer is an irrelevant BW pro. SC2 Diehards: BW pros aren't going to dominate SC2 because it is a different game and harder in different ways. Essentially SC2 players are defending the game they like using logic. | ||
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