The Elephant in the Room - Page 274

On February 14 2012 15:02 Sawamura wrote:


Actually KT.Violet has reach GM rank in NA and is high master in Korea . Say's so much about the pro's transitioning in to a much simpler game .

On February 14 2012 07:24 TrickyGilligan wrote:


Sorry, wasn't actually trying to call you an asshole, since you didn't actually say anything to insult Boxer. I was just pointing out that the common sentiment is that criticizing Boxer is hurting esports, while criticizing SC2 play is acceptable. I feel that there's some cognitive dissonance going on when people are able to rationalize both of those stances into one argument.

Also, I'm not sure you appreciate how closely related strategy and mechanics are. There's no way that the current builds are going to stay competitive if people start playing better. If one player is able to drop in more places or have more units at an early timing, all other builds are going to have to change to reflect that reality. Saying that the current strategies could survive such a skill increase is simply not realistic.

Also, I think we can all agree that the level of SC2 play is only going to increase as the game matures. The point I'm trying to make though is that such an evolution isn't bad in any way, it's just something that happens as people figure the game out and get better at playing it. The question then is who will continue to advance the level of play in SC2,. Will it be the current SC2 pros, the BW pros, or a new generation of gamers? There's really nothing to do other than wait and see, but the premise of this article is that it will be the BW pros, which is looking less and less likely based on all the evidence we've seen.

On February 14 2012 04:46 Taiki wrote:


Wait. I'm pretty sure that MMA was on SKT (remember a interview where Oov said that he was sad that MMA switched to SC2) , according to Liquidpedia DRG was on CJ, MvP was on Woongjin and Nestea was on KT. The only one I couldn't find any BW info on was Leenock.

I don't really support any side, but right is right.

As for my own opinion. I think that if all the BW players switched at the time when this article was writting, most of them would've been the top of SC2 along with those who were already playing the game and the best of the best at BW would've settled comfortably in top10 of SC2. I also don't think there is enough room (in SC2) for a player like Flash to dominate a player like MvP as hard as he would've done in BW.

On February 17 2012 09:52 DemonDeacon wrote:
i don't know how much i agree with this... I think you make an interesting point but i hate to see the sc2 pro scene bashed so hard...

just from watching VODs it's pretty clear code s players put a lot of time and preparation into their games, especially in the later matches. Code A is also filled with hungry new potentials who probably work day-in day-out trying to make it to code S. I have been very happy to see many previously un-known players who probably worked their arses off to make it to code s.

I also don't think it's fair to bash such a young game that is still being mapped out... brood war pros have +10 years of innovation to base their practice on... the meta game moves so fast in sc2 it's almost impossible to keep up. if you watch "pro" replays of BW in 2000/2001 it's incredible how bad the games are... any amateur today with a knowledge of the current meta game could probably stomp a pro that played like they did back then.

Also, if what you are saying was true, I think we'd see a lot more of those 300 pro gamers from BW switching over. Especially those at the bottom of the 300, the potential to make a lot of money is too great. I really think that sc2 is a different game. it is much more micro-oriented and relies a lot more on strategy/mind games than a meta-game that limits the total build orders to 10. In some ways this can lead to a lot of lame build-order wins but it also leads to some amazing games of epic strategy and quick-thinking. Having BW skills would def. put you ahead of the curve to start but when it comes down to the mechanics of the game, they are truly different. I would absolutely love to see someone like flash switch over though, that kid is a god.

having said that... what else would explain so many pros using only 1-2 hotkeys for their whole army? : /
also you have a much broader understanding of the pro scene than i do so take my opinion with a grain of salt

On February 17 2012 20:19 Squeegy wrote:


Also, the things you brought up against the article have already been refuted. It is a long thread after all!

On February 15 2012 01:02 Djagulingu wrote:

MMA was an SKT1 B teamer under the id Dream.t)1988 or something like that.
DRG (and also Keen) was on CJ.
Nestea was a KT 2v2 player who had to stop his active BW career after 2v2 was removed from Proleague.
Mvp (and GanZi too) was a Woongjin Terran (Woongjin Terrans were Proleague's laughing stocks when these 2 were playing for Woongjin).
Sage, sC and Leenock were amateurs who have replays of them getting roflstomped by current/ex BW pros (they are funny too, sC's replays especially. He makes mistakes that I probably wouldn't do. Leenock got roflstomped by IdrA. Sage's replay wasn't that bad, he actually showed some hope from time to time but it was still one sided).
LosirA was Hwaseung OZ B-Teamer.

So it's not like they started playing RTS with SC2 and are so fucking successful. They started playing SC2 because they don't/didn't make the cut for BW.

On February 15 2012 01:02 Djagulingu wrote:

MMA was an SKT1 B teamer under the id Dream.t)1988 or something like that.
DRG (and also Keen) was on CJ.
Nestea was a KT 2v2 player who had to stop his active BW career after 2v2 was removed from Proleague.
Mvp (and GanZi too) was a Woongjin Terran (Woongjin Terrans were Proleague's laughing stocks when these 2 were playing for Woongjin).
Sage, sC and Leenock were amateurs who have replays of them getting roflstomped by current/ex BW pros (they are funny too, sC's replays especially. He makes mistakes that I probably wouldn't do. Leenock got roflstomped by IdrA. Sage's replay wasn't that bad, he actually showed some hope from time to time but it was still one sided).
LosirA was Hwaseung OZ B-Teamer.

So it's not like they started playing RTS with SC2 and are so fucking successful. They started playing SC2 because they don't/didn't make the cut for BW.

On February 19 2012 06:48 dsousa wrote:
Ok, new top 5 in the TLPD

1. DRG - 0 career BW pro matches
2. MMA - 5 career BW pro matches
3. MVP - 77 career BW pro matches
4. MarineKing - 0 career pro matches
5. aLive - 0 career BW pro matches

This article would have you think that the SC2 pro's with more BW experience would be working their way UP this list, but instead its the opposite. BW Pro gamers are falling from the top of SC2, not taking it over.

Look at the top 4 or even 8 in the GSL, any BW elephants there? Parting? Gumiho? Genius?

On February 19 2012 07:19 Squeegy wrote:


I am not sure it works well in your favour that you try to argue against the effect of BW by showing that the scene is still dominated by BW players.

On February 19 2012 07:19 Squeegy wrote:


I am not sure it works well in your favour that you try to argue against the effect of BW by showing that the scene is still dominated by BW players.

On February 19 2012 08:33 hunts wrote:


Yup look at all those BW pros dominating the SC2 still, as you just said. Man, that DRG guy must've been the best BW player ever! I

On February 19 2012 08:42 Squeegy wrote:


Yes, DRG too was a BW player. But you misunderstand! He is dominating in SC2 because the relevant pros play BW and not SC2.

On February 19 2012 08:42 Squeegy wrote:


Yes, DRG too was a BW player. But you misunderstand! He is dominating in SC2 because the relevant pros play BW and not SC2.

On February 19 2012 06:48 dsousa wrote:
Ok, new top 5 in the TLPD

1. DRG - 0 career BW pro matches
2. MMA - 5 career BW pro matches
3. MVP - 77 career BW pro matches
4. MarineKing - 0 career pro matches
5. aLive - 0 career BW pro matches

This article would have you think that the SC2 pro's with more BW experience would be working their way UP this list, but instead its the opposite. BW Pro gamers are falling from the top of SC2, not taking it over.

Look at the top 4 or even 8 in the GSL, any BW elephants there? Parting? Gumiho? Genius?