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On February 14 2012 07:30 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:15 NoobSkills wrote:On February 14 2012 05:53 dsousa wrote:On February 14 2012 05:29 Squeegy wrote:On February 14 2012 05:18 dsousa wrote:
MMA had 5 career appearances in BW... one less than Idra. DRG and Leenock had 0.
Data shows BW experience is counting for less and less as SC2 moves along.
Many of the players with the most BW experience have faded away. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow even Boxer, July and Nada.... they are not as strong now as there were a year ago.
Its going the other direction, the Elephant in the Room is that BW players WILL NOT have a career waiting for them in SC2. They missed the boat. SC2 players are too good and too young for older BW pro's to ever catch up now The reason why they had few appearances is that they didn't get to play. They weren't good enough. That is how BW works. Not everyone gets to play in the tournaments. Only the best do. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow and Boxer played their games quite a while ago. They got to play but not in the recent memory. That is to say, they weren't that good anymore. The point holds. The top SC2 players now don't have as much experience in BW as the top SC2 pro's a year ago. The top BW players who moved to SC2, are not as good in SC2 now as there were a year ago. The trend is down for ex-BW pro's in SC2. I'm sorry to be the one to tell all the BW lovers this, but its only going to get worse. I like BW and agree it compiled an unprecedented amount of gaming talent among its player base, but the data seems to be pointing to a diminishing influence of BW, not an increasing one. MC Nestea MVP and MMA are all ex-BW pros. The trend is down? Scenario: Skill Ceilings (supposed) in both games and our current players abilities. Flash JD Bisu - Are doing everything as close to perfect as humanly possible in BW. To do that is much harder in BroodWar. MC Nestea MVP and MMA - Are not even close to making the best decisions in a game where macro is a breeze. That is right you take having to manually select every building to macro you units to SC2 where a few hotkeys can build an entire army and our current SC2 top players still are lacking in that macro. Then even with the units they do pump out they don't micro or multitask with them nearly as efficently as a BW pro does. So, these current players nowhere near this lowered skill ceiling are winning big tournaments. They win because they have BW experience and are still playing with that mentality. They know what they need to do better than most current players, but much much more could be done. It might not be Flash JD Bisu leading the charge if/when the BW pros switch over, hell it might not even be a current BW pro, but so far all signs point to they can do better than our current players. People who thought the Gods of Old were going to be the shit in this game were mistaken. Boxer, Nada, Forgg, JulyZerg all fell off long ago, missed the bus, they couldn't hit that skill ceiling even when giving it their all, and trust me they're not giving it their all. At the moment everyone who has switched over still plays like shit. MMA could dominate for the rest of SC2, but not in his current form. That last part might seem a bit here and there, but now I want to adress the OP. I do think the Elephant in the Room exists to a certain extent. Current pros are bad. But I also believe that it doesn't have it be the ex-BW pros coming over that makes or breaks the ceiling. Newcommers, Current SC2 pros, Current BW pros will all be at the top eventually. They will weed out those who don't do enough to gain the edge that currently isn't in SC2 even though it has become better. In the end the Elephant in the Room isn't that ex-BW pros are going to destroy what we have now, but that what we have now are players that aren't nearly as good as they should be and we know there are better out there. The fact that you think Flash, JD and BIsu are as close to perfect as humanly possible - to me - shows that you have a bad case of hero worship and a limited understanding of human/gaming/sporting history. You underestimate the will of the next generation to be better than their heroes.... they usually are. Everything get improved upon
If anyone has perfect [mechanics] as humanely possible its Bisu. This guy can macro off 20 gateways while microing in 5 places at once. And its not just suicide drops, its literally microing units and keeping them alive for ages, 20 kill DTs, Corsairs never dying for the whole game, storm drops, reaver drops.
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On February 14 2012 08:03 DaemonX wrote:
God this stupid thread still alive?
Stupid, irrelevant and illogical thread, insulting all high level and pro players of this game. If anyone else had posted it, it would have been an instaban.
And yes, Hot Bid, the game IS different. Otherwise, by the logic of the OP, July would have been a GSL finalist every single time: if the competition level is THAT MUCH BETTER in Brood War, and the players are THAT MUCH more skilled, then even an aging bonjwa down on his luck would be crushing the scrubs playing SC2, right??
God sake, how someone gets off with foementing stupid false contraversy on TL, while simultaneously when there are actual real issues facing this community, is beyond me.
You know the real reason why the remaining Brood War players didn't switch? It's because they all tried SC2 quietly one day, found their skills didn't translate directly into it (since in BW, perfect mechanics elevates you over a tactical genius with only excellent ones), and realised they'd be in Code B. That's why they haven't switched. Very few have the balls of Boxer.
You insult the OP for irrelavent/stupid logic, then you finish with a completely evidence-lacking and facetious claim.
Hint, they aren't switching because they are making damn good money/have comfortable life's, or maybe, they just dont like the game. (see Midas)
If anyone should be banned its someone like you who comes in here and make a bullshit claim with no evidence whatsoever. I at least give credit to the opposers of the article who use evidence to state their arguments...but not you
Edit: balls of boxer? Really dude? Boxer switched because he was doing terrible in proleague and wasn't getting a chance to play
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You know the real reason why the remaining Brood War players didn't switch? It's because they all tried SC2 quietly one day, found their skills didn't translate directly into it (since in BW, perfect mechanics elevates you over a tactical genius with only excellent ones), and realised they'd be in Code B. That's why they haven't switched. Very few have the balls of Boxer.
![[image loading]](http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxnidjhVhb1r0gzg6o1_500.gif)
User was warned for this post
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On February 14 2012 08:03 DaemonX wrote:
God this stupid thread still alive?
Stupid, irrelevant and illogical thread, insulting all high level and pro players of this game. If anyone else had posted it, it would have been an instaban.
And yes, Hot Bid, the game IS different. Otherwise, by the logic of the OP, July would have been a GSL finalist every single time: if the competition level is THAT MUCH BETTER in Brood War, and the players are THAT MUCH more skilled, then even an aging bonjwa down on his luck would be crushing the scrubs playing SC2, right??
God sake, how someone gets off with foementing stupid false contraversy on TL, while simultaneously when there are actual real issues facing this community, is beyond me.
You know the real reason why the remaining Brood War players didn't switch? It's because they all tried SC2 quietly one day, found their skills didn't translate directly into it (since in BW, perfect mechanics elevates you over a tactical genius with only excellent ones), and realised they'd be in Code B. That's why they haven't switched. Very few have the balls of Boxer.
You call bullshit yet your last paragraph is full of bullshit.
I still find it amusing when people try to compare different games. Skill sets are similar but the rules are totally different. This doesn't even consider the changes within in the player. Internal and external.
As for your take on July.
You are aware much like NaDa July's victories were well spread out over a long period of time? A resurgence is very uncommon in BW. In fact only a select few have managed to do this in BW majors.
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If we could just stop comparing BW to SC2 and we see this thread for what it really is.
Point here is that the game is so different and the skills difference offers little margin between pros and beginners that for a BW pro to switch over does not make sense, especially since BW is still soing fine.
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The best thing Blizzard could do for SC2 for making it more competitive and raising the skill cap considerably would be to GET RID OF THE INFINITE CONTROL GROUPS.
You don't have to go back to 12, but infinite is absurd. It completely undermines the competitiveness of the game imo and makes articles like this ring even more true.
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This thread is really funny. All the going-around-in-circles from each poster!
Like dogs chasing tails.
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On February 14 2012 07:56 Adreme wrote:
Its similer in a sense but the difference is that Reach is almost unanimously considered a bad game and shrunk the size of halo. A better comparison would probably be between halo 1 and halo 2 if you were to use the halo franchise. Both were great games in there own right but different as well and the comparison goes further in that halo 2 was easily so much bigger than halo 1 just because of it being the best online shooter ever.
The key difference between halo and starcraft is that virtually every pro transitioned so we have a pretty good idea of what the result would be which is that most are able to adapt and be as good as they were, with a decent amount of people who take to new game better than old one and fill the spots of the previous generation.
yeah, H1 to H2 is a better comparison; there were a lot of new pros for H2, not as many for later games.
but i guarantee that if Halo 2 had been taken over by a new league while MLG kept running Halo CE tournaments, the entire Halo community would go on and on about how the OG Halo players (StrangePurple, Clockwork, OG1/OG2, Walshy, Zyos) would completely destroy the H2 kids when they transferred over ... but we know from experience that this didn't happen. a couple top players stayed at the top (Walshy, OG1/OG2), but all of the other CE pros fell off in skill.
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On February 14 2012 09:21 jtp118 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:56 Adreme wrote:
Its similer in a sense but the difference is that Reach is almost unanimously considered a bad game and shrunk the size of halo. A better comparison would probably be between halo 1 and halo 2 if you were to use the halo franchise. Both were great games in there own right but different as well and the comparison goes further in that halo 2 was easily so much bigger than halo 1 just because of it being the best online shooter ever.
The key difference between halo and starcraft is that virtually every pro transitioned so we have a pretty good idea of what the result would be which is that most are able to adapt and be as good as they were, with a decent amount of people who take to new game better than old one and fill the spots of the previous generation. yeah, H1 to H2 is a better comparison; there were a lot of new pros for H2, not as many for later games. but i guarantee that if Halo 2 had been taken over by a new league while MLG kept running Halo CE tournaments, the entire Halo community would go on and on about how the OG Halo players (StrangePurple, Clockwork, OG1/OG2, Walshy, Zyos) would completely destroy the H2 kids when they transferred over ... but we know from experience that this didn't happen. a couple top players stayed at the top (Walshy, OG1/OG2), but all of the other CE pros fell off in skill.
Of course. It's only natural to have those feelings of "the original is better" that sort of attitude is everywhere, from movie sequels to game sequels to everything. It's natural to go "yeah well the pros of the old game can own the new ones" it happens in every game that's competitive when a new one comes out. But in how many of those games do the pros ACTUALLY go on to dominate the next game, after having not switched over right away? I don't see why Bw -> will be any different.
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On February 14 2012 05:18 dsousa wrote:
MMA had 5 career appearances in BW... one less than Idra. DRG and Leenock had 0.
Data shows BW experience is counting for less and less as SC2 moves along.
Many of the players with the most BW experience have faded away. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow even Boxer, July and Nada.... they are not as strong now as there were a year ago.
Its going the other direction, the Elephant in the Room is that BW players WILL NOT have a career waiting for them in SC2. They missed the boat. SC2 players are too good and too young for older BW pro's to ever catch up now
GOM Classic doesn't really count as appearance.
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On February 14 2012 08:53 fox77 wrote:
The best thing Blizzard could do for SC2 for making it more competitive and raising the skill cap considerably would be to GET RID OF THE INFINITE CONTROL GROUPS.
You don't have to go back to 12, but infinite is absurd. It completely undermines the competitiveness of the game imo and makes articles like this ring even more true.
You've just completely failed to undertstand SC2.
You don't want all your units in one group, you want them in smaller groups. If you run your army around as one giant blob you will get owned by AOE.
Maybe on ladder you're annoyed that your ability to control mutliple control groups has not translated into wins for you but in the proscene we see players splitting and pre-splitting their armies all the time to mitigate aoe damage.
Also, can't we just delete this thread and forget it ever existed?
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On February 14 2012 09:28 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 09:21 jtp118 wrote:On February 14 2012 07:56 Adreme wrote:
Its similer in a sense but the difference is that Reach is almost unanimously considered a bad game and shrunk the size of halo. A better comparison would probably be between halo 1 and halo 2 if you were to use the halo franchise. Both were great games in there own right but different as well and the comparison goes further in that halo 2 was easily so much bigger than halo 1 just because of it being the best online shooter ever.
The key difference between halo and starcraft is that virtually every pro transitioned so we have a pretty good idea of what the result would be which is that most are able to adapt and be as good as they were, with a decent amount of people who take to new game better than old one and fill the spots of the previous generation. yeah, H1 to H2 is a better comparison; there were a lot of new pros for H2, not as many for later games. but i guarantee that if Halo 2 had been taken over by a new league while MLG kept running Halo CE tournaments, the entire Halo community would go on and on about how the OG Halo players (StrangePurple, Clockwork, OG1/OG2, Walshy, Zyos) would completely destroy the H2 kids when they transferred over ... but we know from experience that this didn't happen. a couple top players stayed at the top (Walshy, OG1/OG2), but all of the other CE pros fell off in skill. Of course. It's only natural to have those feelings of "the original is better" that sort of attitude is everywhere, from movie sequels to game sequels to everything. It's natural to go "yeah well the pros of the old game can own the new ones" it happens in every game that's competitive when a new one comes out. But in how many of those games do the pros ACTUALLY go on to dominate the next game, after having not switched over right away? I don't see why Bw -> will be any different.
Of course that is what tends to happen when the talent pool is rather small. This is seen in SC2 Europe, where the BW players, who were vastly inferior to the Koreans, are doing about just as well as their WC3 counterparts. It is because it didn't take that much to be good in WC3. But when the talent pool is large, it gets much harder to make it to the top. If SC2 were to suddenly gain 100 million players, then yes, BW pros probably would not be able to remain relevant unless they switched right away. And even then probably not for long. Someone like Flash could be an exception that rule. That is because in that mass of 100 million new players there surely would be so much new talent that suddenly the BW scene wouldn't be that special anymore. But once again, if SC3 were to be released soon after, but only a million new players would play, I'd put my money on the guys at top of SC2 to dominate.
It is of course not only a matter of numbers. For example BW scene was quite famous for how competetive it was. In that how many people tried to get good and go pro (in Korea). It was unheard of. It is still unheard of. That is why I don't think in the 100 million mentioned above the percentage of players playing seriously would be as high as in BW. But the point still stands: big fish in big pools tend to be bigger than big fish in small pools.
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On February 14 2012 08:03 DaemonX wrote:
God this stupid thread still alive?
Stupid, irrelevant and illogical thread, insulting all high level and pro players of this game. If anyone else had posted it, it would have been an instaban.
And yes, Hot Bid, the game IS different. Otherwise, by the logic of the OP, July would have been a GSL finalist every single time: if the competition level is THAT MUCH BETTER in Brood War, and the players are THAT MUCH more skilled, then even an aging bonjwa down on his luck would be crushing the scrubs playing SC2, right??
God sake, how someone gets off with foementing stupid false contraversy on TL, while simultaneously when there are actual real issues facing this community, is beyond me.
You know the real reason why the remaining Brood War players didn't switch? It's because they all tried SC2 quietly one day, found their skills didn't translate directly into it (since in BW, perfect mechanics elevates you over a tactical genius with only excellent ones), and realised they'd be in Code B. That's why they haven't switched. Very few have the balls of Boxer.
Amazing macro, micro and decision making are very important skills in sc2 and BW. Why would these skills not translate?
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Seeing how many posts from this thread have been on the topic of the two games' comparison, I am going to give out a piece of my mind.
If you haven't realized this already, both games albeit containing different strategical variations is pretty much identical when it boils down to the core. In SC2, you have to control your units, manage your economy, scouting out any tricks up your opponent's sleeves, finding windows of opportunity to prepare an decisive attack, and handling multiple of tasks in a short relatives amount of time just exactly like Brood War. However with the release of the sequel, all of those aspeects are facilitated with the introduction of MBS for macro, unlimited unit hotkey/smartcasting for micro, and automining for tedious multitask. The fundamentals are alike and Brood War players with stronger fundamentals that can keep up with multi-proned attacks, never missing one round of macro, and have the ability to efficiently utilize a large army will have an edge over the less difficult counterpart.
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What a wonderful article.
On a side note: right now, you could say that SC2 is not a stable game. With HotS and LotV coming, there will be too many changes, balance issues etc to be compared to BW. Because of this, I feel that the instability (or luck) is what will allow upheavals in ranking with players, not just skill, postitioning, mechanics etc. On top of that, WoL hasn't even completely developed as a game yet. BW had at least 6 years to develop (with only minor patches). And in a year or two, we're going to introduce units that will change game play entirely. I would wager that BW pros are more likely to switch once LotV is released. After all, why play a game whose rules aren't completely fomulated yet? (If you're a top tier player, you could drop off the map due to a patch change, because all your timings are now wrong/ or sky rocket to the top because *cough immortals* have finally become useful .)
As with translation of mechanics: i suppose the rate of collection is different and build timings are different. You would have to completely change your internal body clock to adapt from BW to SC2. It would take months of practicing only one game for pros to readjust a body clock that took them years to hone.
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On February 14 2012 08:03 DaemonX wrote:
God this stupid thread still alive?
Stupid, irrelevant and illogical thread, insulting all high level and pro players of this game. If anyone else had posted it, it would have been an instaban.
And yes, Hot Bid, the game IS different. Otherwise, by the logic of the OP, July would have been a GSL finalist every single time: if the competition level is THAT MUCH BETTER in Brood War, and the players are THAT MUCH more skilled, then even an aging bonjwa down on his luck would be crushing the scrubs playing SC2, right??
God sake, how someone gets off with foementing stupid false contraversy on TL, while simultaneously when there are actual real issues facing this community, is beyond me.
You know the real reason why the remaining Brood War players didn't switch? It's because they all tried SC2 quietly one day, found their skills didn't translate directly into it (since in BW, perfect mechanics elevates you over a tactical genius with only excellent ones), and realised they'd be in Code B. That's why they haven't switched. Very few have the balls of Boxer.
I think you've been drinking the Artosis kool-aid in thinking Nestea, MC and every other SC2 top pro is some super-genius that was just hiding their potential in BW or were unable to excel because of some lack of mechanics. Reality is they didn't succeed because they were inferior in most aspects of their game, not just one.
While mechanics is important in BW many former and current pros have shown that doesn't their greatest strength in order to succeed. Flash, Boxer, Oov, Stork, Savior, Fantasy all had/have average level mechanics for the time period they played in.
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On February 14 2012 08:03 DaemonX wrote:
You know the real reason why the remaining Brood War players didn't switch? It's because they all tried SC2 quietly one day, found their skills didn't translate directly into it (since in BW, perfect mechanics elevates you over a tactical genius with only excellent ones), and realised they'd be in Code B. That's why they haven't switched. Very few have the balls of Boxer.
I'm not surprised you joined in mid-2010, you probably never followed pro-BW at all, this is the most laughable thing I've read in the entire thread. Yes, I'm sure Flash, Jaedong and Bisu all sat down and tried out SC2 and went "this is too hard!" and then went back to Brood War because they knew they couldn't cut it against the likes of IrOn and Zergbong.
Good lord this site really has gone to shit since 90% of the users now joined for SC2.
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On February 14 2012 14:46 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 08:03 DaemonX wrote:
You know the real reason why the remaining Brood War players didn't switch? It's because they all tried SC2 quietly one day, found their skills didn't translate directly into it (since in BW, perfect mechanics elevates you over a tactical genius with only excellent ones), and realised they'd be in Code B. That's why they haven't switched. Very few have the balls of Boxer. I'm not surprised you joined in mid-2010, you probably never followed pro-BW at all, this is the most laughable thing I've read in the entire thread. Yes, I'm sure Flash, Jaedong and Bisu all sat down and tried out SC2 and went "this is too hard!" and then went back to Brood War because they knew they couldn't cut it against the likes of IrOn and Zergbong. Good lord this site really has gone to shit since 90% of the users now joined for SC2.
Don't worry this poster does not represent the majority of TLers! I didn't follow BW but can tell he has no idea what he is talking about.
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On February 14 2012 10:36 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 08:03 DaemonX wrote:
God this stupid thread still alive?
Stupid, irrelevant and illogical thread, insulting all high level and pro players of this game. If anyone else had posted it, it would have been an instaban.
And yes, Hot Bid, the game IS different. Otherwise, by the logic of the OP, July would have been a GSL finalist every single time: if the competition level is THAT MUCH BETTER in Brood War, and the players are THAT MUCH more skilled, then even an aging bonjwa down on his luck would be crushing the scrubs playing SC2, right??
God sake, how someone gets off with foementing stupid false contraversy on TL, while simultaneously when there are actual real issues facing this community, is beyond me.
You know the real reason why the remaining Brood War players didn't switch? It's because they all tried SC2 quietly one day, found their skills didn't translate directly into it (since in BW, perfect mechanics elevates you over a tactical genius with only excellent ones), and realised they'd be in Code B. That's why they haven't switched. Very few have the balls of Boxer. I think you've been drinking the Artosis kool-aid in thinking Nestea, MC and every other SC2 top pro is some super-genius that was just hiding their potential in BW or were unable to excel because of some lack of mechanics. Reality is they didn't succeed because they were inferior in most aspects of their game, not just one. While mechanics is important in BW many former and current pros have shown that doesn't their greatest strength in order to succeed. Flash, Boxer, Oov, Stork, Savior, Fantasy all had/have average level mechanics for the time period they played in.
Artosis does serve up some good Kool-Aid if you didn't know anything about BW, though. Tasteless used to, but these days he just calls everyone a SICK NERD BALLER and I don't think even SC2-only watchers believe him anymore.
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On February 14 2012 14:46 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 08:03 DaemonX wrote:
You know the real reason why the remaining Brood War players didn't switch? It's because they all tried SC2 quietly one day, found their skills didn't translate directly into it (since in BW, perfect mechanics elevates you over a tactical genius with only excellent ones), and realised they'd be in Code B. That's why they haven't switched. Very few have the balls of Boxer. I'm not surprised you joined in mid-2010, you probably never followed pro-BW at all, this is the most laughable thing I've read in the entire thread. Yes, I'm sure Flash, Jaedong and Bisu all sat down and tried out SC2 and went "this is too hard!" and then went back to Brood War because they knew they couldn't cut it against the likes of IrOn and Zergbong. Good lord this site really has gone to shit since 90% of the users now joined for SC2.
Actually KT.Violet has reach GM rank in NA and is high master in Korea . Say's so much about the pro's transitioning in to a much simpler game .
On February 09 2012 01:28 Tomken wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7mEek.jpg) Some info at least :>
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EPT
