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On February 13 2012 23:24 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 22:31 Squeegy wrote:
So you agree 100% with what the article tried to convey. That is with what I've been saying. I think you are a very confused one. You should make up your mind. The basic idea behind it, of course, that's pretty obvious stuff. The OP failed however in his attempt to convey it by writing a trash piece, The article is shit, the general idea is not. He'd be more than welcome to give it another go. ¨ My posts for the last few pages has been more aimed at the amusement and hilarity in seeing you bending over backwards, drawing graphs, rewriting the article and boiling up a Finglish dictionary in desperate attempts to make the pieces fit. I'm sorry, it wasn't very nice but it feels like everything there is to be said on this topic was so 200 pages ago. Now I'll leave it fo' reelz.
But the pieces fit. You say it yourself. The basic idea is something you agree with (and apparently disagree with the rhetorics). The basic idea is something I've been trying to explain. And you've claimed that I was wrong. You're not very consistent with yourself. But I guess man of his word would not break his word twice in a row, so I won't see you realizing your mistake here. I do hope you learned quite a few of the things I tried to teach you. Take care!
On February 13 2012 23:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 22:31 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 19:18 Longshank wrote:On February 13 2012 09:17 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 08:23 Longshank wrote:On February 13 2012 07:49 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 07:40 lorkac wrote:On February 13 2012 07:27 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 07:24 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 06:58 Big J wrote:
[quote]
proof/argumentation for this?
And I mean one that is consistent with the OP, so not the "ex-BWs like MVP/Nestea are dominating SC2"-argument. Because the OP clearly says that those are bad players and I honestly can't think of a context in which you can say that bad players could compete on the same level as the top300 (=good) BW players.
And I also don't take examples. You can not proof something with an example, you can only falsify something with a counterexample. (like you can falsify the "the top300 BW pros will instantly dominate SC2" with the one counterexample "Forgg/Fin was top300 before he switched; He is not dominating") They are bad players when compared to players like Flash. And not only to Flash but to players like Sea, players like every good A-teamer. They are, or were, at the same level as the top 300 of BW. That is the entire point. MVP was in that top 300. So was MC. So was MMA. There weren't 300 players better than them. There aren't 300 A-teamers. This is of course very obvious and clear to anyone who knows the context. But I guess it only shows that you don't, in which case you not being able to think of a context, well, that's not something to brag about. And you don't have to take my word for it. You can go search the BW ranking databases for yourself. You also don't want to put in quotes something you made up yourself. Intrigue talked about potential to dominate. He was not saying everyone will (instantly) dominate. Also, I think the example that there is absence of proof of a bomb explosion in my room is proof of absence. Don't you think? On February 13 2012 07:22 lorkac wrote:On February 13 2012 05:47 Longshank wrote:
This is amazing. So now dominating actually means(if I read your graphics right) being a step behind to top players? Code B/A-ish? And would this mean that Incontrol is in fact dominating the NA scene? Actually, he means only BW pro team members. Which means LiquidTyler is dominating the foreign scene according to him. Not scrubs like naniwa and huk. Oh, it's you again. Could you, for once, try to reply in an intelligent way to my rebuttals of your arguments? Or is it that you just can't. Tyler? The player who seems to be facing motivational and other personal issues? You should try harder, I'm not even breaking a sweat! I did actually. Several pages ago. I don't like reposting the same argument over and over when it's simply ignored. Article said top 300 would dominate. Top 100 is doing as well as low lever sc2 pros. MVP, MC and Nestea are slowly getting replaced by DRG, MVP and others. So far, by empiracle proof, there is no relation between skill rank in BW and skill rank in SC2. Do you have a non-theorycraft rebuttal? But I did reply to it. Why don't you reply to my rebuttal of it? On February 13 2012 07:40 Longshank wrote:On February 13 2012 06:58 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 06:24 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 05:47 Longshank wrote:
This is amazing. So now dominating actually means(if I read your graphics right) being a step behind to top players? Code B/A-ish? And would this mean that Incontrol is in fact dominating the NA scene? As usual, you read it wrong. The upper line represents the 300 BW players that haven't switched. The line below shows where the current top SC2 players rank on that line. In other words, the current top SC2 players are on the same level as the top 300. But not on the same level as say the top 50 (right-hand side of the line). Point being that Intrigue, knowing the scene, was aware of this. This is why he made a distinction between dominating (doing as well as the current top players, who, quite literally, dominate the scene) and crushing (doing better than the current top players). proof/argumentation for this? And I mean one that is consistent with the OP, so not the "ex-BWs like MVP/Nestea are dominating SC2"-argument. Because the OP clearly says that those are bad players and I honestly can't think of a context in which you can say that bad players could compete on the same level as the top300 (= good) BW players. And I also don't take examples. You can not proof something with an example, you can only falsify something with a counterexample. (like you can falsify the "the top300 BW pros will instantly dominate SC2" with the one counterexample "Forgg/Fin was top300 before he switched; He is not dominating") Oh alright, gotcha. Judging by the size of it, there still ought to be a good 50-100 players in that SC2 bracket though, which would mean Incontrol is indeed dominating the NA scene. Someone should tell him quick! What does Incontrol have to do with Korean BW players. You should try being right for a change. It's more useful than being wrong all the time. Not much. It's about what you put in your home-made definition of the word dominating, I thought that was obvious. Besides, a page ago you said it was the non-BW players, whoever they may be, they were supposed to dominate(or play at the same level as according to your definition), not the top SC2 players who are ex-BW players. By such flawless logic and use of the terms 'SC2 scene' and 'dominate', Inrigue was indeed correct. You win the argument. Ah, so it is yet another case of not understanding the argument! I see I was right again. The dictionary definition of dominate is not as important as what Intrigue meant by it. I'll explain it in very simple terms what I mean. I use MVP only as an example to illustrate my point. He represents the top of SC2. I could use other players too but using MVP is much less controversial since his level was better established than most others. 1. Intrigue knows BW scene 2. MVP is a top 100 BW player 3. Intrigue knows MVP is a top 100 BW player 4. Intrigue argues that BW skill is (at least to an extent) proportional to SC2 skill 5. Intrigue argues that the best 300 BW players have the potential to dominate SC2 6. Intrigue claims that MVP dominates SC2 7. Intrigue's argument would not be internally consistent if he argued top 300 (excluding the top 100) had the potential to dominate the top 100* 8. Intrigue did not argue that the best 300 BW players (excluding the top 100) would dominate MVP 9. Intrigue meant something else than what you think by dominate 10. I claim Intrigue meant something else than what you think by dominate 11. I am correct * I suppose in a way they do have the potential (anybody can beat anybody). But not in the way Intrigue means. And as for the second part, you really have trouble understanding this, don't you? It is still the non-BW players who are being dominated by the BW players. It is the BW players who are dominating the scene now. The best 300 BW players who would switch would also dominate the scene, but they would not dominate those BW players (who are already dominating) as they are both part of the same group. MVP and MC are amongst the best 300 BW players. But once we are more specific and talk about the A-teamers and such we get from dominating to crushing. It was a very clear distinction made by Intrigue. I hope you don't analyze things for a job! What kind of misunderstandings would that lead to! You should try something like an assembly line. You might find it more suitable for your skills. You are correct, I truly do not understand, and I probably never will. Much like a child being taught algebra by a donkey, it's futile. I just hope you understand why there is confusion when by 'dominate' he meant 'playing roughly at the same level as', 'SC2 scene' was really 'non ex-BW players' and now when the 300 players that could come in and dominate at any given time also includes the current(at the time) 40-50 ex-bw pros that had already switched. On February 13 2012 13:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Although badly worded imo, I think I get what the 300 player thing is coming from.
Basically its not saying that the top 300 would beat MVP as that doesn't really make any sense as MVP was at least in the top 100. Its more or less saying that if the top 300 switched over, the competition and skill level would rise dramatically.
But most of the foreign SC2 players would probably be as they were in BW, and most of the code A players would be replaced with these BW players (at the time of the writing). The average skill level would inevitably rise dramatically and the less experienced/dedicated [SC2 only] players would fall down, it seems like an obvious point when you think about it. Perhaps at the fringes we may still see MVP/Nestea/MC still in code S. However, I'm sure TBLS would still be the top four, their skills are out of this world even without BW micro. I agree 100% with this. The problem is the language and the construction of the OP. He could have chosen a different approach, one more balanced and leveled, one that wouldn't alienate 90% of the readers. He didn't unfortunately. I'm done with this topic, the ugly thing can not die if I keep bumping it :/ Now, now, don't be so hard on yourself. But when you are willing to learn, do come back to me. I will gladly teach you. Meanwhile, make sure you don't strain yourself working at that assembly line. So you agree 100% with what the article tried to convey. That is with what I've been saying. I think you are a very confused one. You should make up your mind. On February 13 2012 15:47 canikizu wrote:On February 13 2012 15:15 Diglett wrote:
kind of a tangent but i want to ask...when you guys think about the "best rts player" who do you think of? personally, my brain goes straight to bw and says flash. do sc2 fans immediately think to immvp as the "best rts player?"
or is "rts" too broad of a category to discuss (sc2 and bw are different, etc)? I'm thinking Moon tbh lolz. You'd think the best RTS player would do better in an RTS. No, there are many BW players better than him. Moon>Flash in WC3 (from what they have achieved yet) Moon>Flash in SC2 (from what they have achieved yet) Flash>Moon in BW (from what they have achieved yet) 2-1 for Moon in terms of in how many categories they have competed on high level. (Flash is just an example... read Jaedong/Bisu/anyone who has played BW only until now if you want to) Other objective indicators?! Prize money? I think Moon is the one who won the most money with gaming yet, but don't know. Couldn't google the exact stats, but I think Artosis mentioned it somewhere in the OpenGSL seasons. Market value? He had best contract up to now of all esport gamers with 500.000$ for 3years at WeMadeFox. Not saying he is the best (I don't think anyone can be the best in a such a huge genre... that's like saying Albert Einstein was the best scientist ever...), but a lot of objective indicators that I know of all point towards him. Of course if you argue NaDa or Boxer or even Grubby, it will become a lot more tricky...
Regional champion Joe has won local tournament in Omaha and Black Jack. Professional player X has only won in holdem. Regional champion Joe is the better card player. Does that sound right to you? Clearly, your logic is flawed.
Prize money is of course not very relevant as BW had only OSL, MSL and WCG for some years. There wasn't as much prize money available.
The claim of his contract being the best is of course wrong. It wasn't the best. Moreover, it is not that good of an indicator. Look at Jaedong's contract. It does not represent his skill.
It looks like your objective indicators are not very good indicators at all. And sometimes of course very wrong.
On February 14 2012 03:08 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 02:20 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 01:29 Djabanete wrote:On February 14 2012 01:27 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 01:17 Seraphone wrote:On February 13 2012 23:03 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:31 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 19:18 Longshank wrote:On February 13 2012 09:17 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 08:23 Longshank wrote:
[quote]
Not much. It's about what you put in your home-made definition of the word dominating, I thought that was obvious.
Besides, a page ago you said it was the non-BW players, whoever they may be, they were supposed to dominate(or play at the same level as according to your definition), not the top SC2 players who are ex-BW players. By such flawless logic and use of the terms 'SC2 scene' and 'dominate', Inrigue was indeed correct. You win the argument. Ah, so it is yet another case of not understanding the argument! I see I was right again. The dictionary definition of dominate is not as important as what Intrigue meant by it. I'll explain it in very simple terms what I mean. I use MVP only as an example to illustrate my point. He represents the top of SC2. I could use other players too but using MVP is much less controversial since his level was better established than most others. 1. Intrigue knows BW scene 2. MVP is a top 100 BW player 3. Intrigue knows MVP is a top 100 BW player 4. Intrigue argues that BW skill is (at least to an extent) proportional to SC2 skill 5. Intrigue argues that the best 300 BW players have the potential to dominate SC2 6. Intrigue claims that MVP dominates SC2 7. Intrigue's argument would not be internally consistent if he argued top 300 (excluding the top 100) had the potential to dominate the top 100* 8. Intrigue did not argue that the best 300 BW players (excluding the top 100) would dominate MVP 9. Intrigue meant something else than what you think by dominate 10. I claim Intrigue meant something else than what you think by dominate 11. I am correct * I suppose in a way they do have the potential (anybody can beat anybody). But not in the way Intrigue means. And as for the second part, you really have trouble understanding this, don't you? It is still the non-BW players who are being dominated by the BW players. It is the BW players who are dominating the scene now. The best 300 BW players who would switch would also dominate the scene, but they would not dominate those BW players (who are already dominating) as they are both part of the same group. MVP and MC are amongst the best 300 BW players. But once we are more specific and talk about the A-teamers and such we get from dominating to crushing. It was a very clear distinction made by Intrigue. I hope you don't analyze things for a job! What kind of misunderstandings would that lead to! You should try something like an assembly line. You might find it more suitable for your skills. You are correct, I truly do not understand, and I probably never will. Much like a child being taught algebra by a donkey, it's futile. I just hope you understand why there is confusion when by 'dominate' he meant 'playing roughly at the same level as', 'SC2 scene' was really 'non ex-BW players' and now when the 300 players that could come in and dominate at any given time also includes the current(at the time) 40-50 ex-bw pros that had already switched. On February 13 2012 13:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Although badly worded imo, I think I get what the 300 player thing is coming from.
Basically its not saying that the top 300 would beat MVP as that doesn't really make any sense as MVP was at least in the top 100. Its more or less saying that if the top 300 switched over, the competition and skill level would rise dramatically.
But most of the foreign SC2 players would probably be as they were in BW, and most of the code A players would be replaced with these BW players (at the time of the writing). The average skill level would inevitably rise dramatically and the less experienced/dedicated [SC2 only] players would fall down, it seems like an obvious point when you think about it. Perhaps at the fringes we may still see MVP/Nestea/MC still in code S. However, I'm sure TBLS would still be the top four, their skills are out of this world even without BW micro. I agree 100% with this. The problem is the language and the construction of the OP. He could have chosen a different approach, one more balanced and leveled, one that wouldn't alienate 90% of the readers. He didn't unfortunately. I'm done with this topic, the ugly thing can not die if I keep bumping it :/ Now, now, don't be so hard on yourself. But when you are willing to learn, do come back to me. I will gladly teach you. Meanwhile, make sure you don't strain yourself working at that assembly line. So you agree 100% with what the article tried to convey. That is with what I've been saying. I think you are a very confused one. You should make up your mind. On February 13 2012 15:47 canikizu wrote:On February 13 2012 15:15 Diglett wrote:
kind of a tangent but i want to ask...when you guys think about the "best rts player" who do you think of? personally, my brain goes straight to bw and says flash. do sc2 fans immediately think to immvp as the "best rts player?"
or is "rts" too broad of a category to discuss (sc2 and bw are different, etc)? I'm thinking Moon tbh lolz. You'd think the best RTS player would do better in an RTS. No, there are many BW players better than him. Moon>Flash in WC3 (from what they have achieved yet) Moon>Flash in SC2 (from what they have achieved yet) Flash>Moon in BW (from what they have achieved yet) 2-1 for Moon in terms of in how many categories they have competed on high level. (Flash is just an example... read Jaedong/Bisu/anyone who has played BW only until now if you want to) Other objective indicators?! Prize money? I think Moon is the one who won the most money with gaming yet, but don't know. Couldn't google the exact stats, but I think Artosis mentioned it somewhere in the OpenGSL seasons. Market value? He had best contract up to now of all esport gamers with 500.000$ for 3years at WeMadeFox. Not saying he is the best (I don't think anyone can be the best in a such a huge genre... that's like saying Albert Einstein was the best scientist ever...), but a lot of objective indicators that I know of all point towards him. Of course if you argue NaDa or Boxer or even Grubby, it will become a lot more tricky... This is a truly ridiculous post. Just unbelievably absurd. you care to say why, or is it just a rediculous post? Like green is just the same as blue. I'd tend to think the best RTS player is Flash, but maybe I just don't understand how good Moon was at WC3. I'd also tend to think BW is a better RTS than WC3, but maybe I just don't understand how good WC3 is. Basically, it's a meaningless comparison. But if I gave each of them one year to master an RTS and then play a Bo7, I'd bet on Flash to win every single match (including SC2) except WC3. (Wow, I looked at Moon's wiki page and it seems like he's won a lot. That is cool!) Edit: Also, I don't know about WC3 being less competitive. It was the first truly globally competitive e-sport. An argument could be made that it was "easier to learn" but as SCBW was only truly competitive in Korea, while WC3 had top players from around the world (Grubby, Sky, and Moon being the pinnacle of the three main regions), I've got to give it to WC3 for being more competitive as it had a larger competitive player base to draw from. Quoting the part I edited in after a half hour. The more I think about that actually the more true I believe it is that WC3 was the more competitive game. Yeah Korea has a HUGE population of SCBW players, and a few competitive international players as well of course... But WC3 has all that, more europeans and MOTHERFUGGIN CHINA. So I mean... that's a SERIOUS note in the talk of "best RTS player". But still, I agree that it's an awful lot like asking "who is the best player at sports". Most will realize it's a stupid question, others (such as myself) will vehemently claim Wayne Gretzky, or Mohamed Ali, or Michael Jordan because we fucking love Wayne Gretzky or "those other guys". It's fanboyism and it's awesome but it often gets taken to extremes, which has happened a lot in this thread. Even if CLEARLY the Great One is the best. 
Well, it is nice that you think. But you should think intelligent thoughts, as that is more useful. WC3 despite being more popular in Europe and China was still the smaller game. Many top broodwar players tried WC3 in it's early stages but gave up claiming it was too easy. They didn't like it. Some stayed with the game playing it alongside of BW, like Elky, and still being among the best. Among best, as in finishing the second in a Korean league while playing poker and BW at the same time. But let us ignore the fact that WC3 was the easier game and look at it from the other side. Freedom easily one of the best WC3 players. He switched to BW and ended up a B-teamer.
But we are not asking who is the best sports player. We are asking a question more along the lines of who is the best driver. WC3 is like a small rally league. Is is nice and dandy that you are the best in your league. But that does not mean you compare, say, to Schumacher. Just like Select does not compare to Flash. Just as Moon does not compare to Flash.
It seems to me that WC3 people have some kind of inferiority complex. You don't see small time rally league drivers claiming they are as good as the F1 drives are, or do you? But I guess it is understandable. BW gave us the better poker players (Elky for example). BW gave us the better casters (Tastosis). BW gave us the better players (Flash). I guess it is not nice for me to point out but I'm only making an observation.
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On February 14 2012 05:03 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:15 dsousa wrote:
Check out the top players on the right hand side of this page ---->
Even in Korea..... MMA, DRG and Leenock were not BW pro's. A year ago the top 5 had more BW representation (with people like Rainbow, Tester and Fruitdealer being much more relevant
BW influence on SC2 in waning, as is evident by the up and coming crop of players.
The elephant in the room is that there are 10 million 12-15 year old kids, who will soon be entering their prime while having grown up playing SC2. That's what current pro's need to worry about, not people playing another game.
I know it's your mission on this forum to try and disparage BW and it's players but at least attempt to do so without posting blatantly false information. How can you even claim that BW influence is waning when BW is still the most popular game in Korea and there is still a vast number of progamers that could potentially switch from that game and be better than the current best.
Wow you didn't even make a counter argument other than just assuming you're right. He said BW's influence on SC2 is waning, not BW in general. And the claim that BW progamers could switch and be the current best is what's being argued here, not what we're already taking as fact.
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MMA had 5 career appearances in BW... one less than Idra. DRG and Leenock had 0.
Data shows BW experience is counting for less and less as SC2 moves along.
Many of the players with the most BW experience have faded away. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow even Boxer, July and Nada.... they are not as strong now as there were a year ago.
Its going the other direction, the Elephant in the Room is that BW players WILL NOT have a career waiting for them in SC2. They missed the boat. SC2 players are too good and too young for older BW pro's to ever catch up now
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It seems you ppl have trouble wrapping your mind around the issue here, so lets simplify it.
Instead of talking about changing games, lets talk about staying within the same game, but switching races.
If a random dude in SC switches race, and a BW pro switches race, and then you make them play a match, whats most likekely to happen? The BW pro will most likely win the match.
Why? because all of his non specific knowledge, like how to macro for example, is still valid.
We are seeing about the same thing when ppl switch to a different RTS such as SC2. Those that already had a huge advantage to begin with, well have a huge advantage.
But it doesnt mean that thats the end of things.
Is flash the best Terran player in BW? Sure.
Is he also the best zerg and protoss player too at the same time? Much more debatable.
Is he simultaneously the best player for BW terran, zerg, protoss, SC2 terran, zerg, protoss, WC3 and all its races, and every other RTS ever made and yet to be made, in each an every race there? Apparently, thats what a lot of ppl seem to think, personally, Im not convinced.
I also dont think that Federer and Nadal (great tennis players) are ever going to be the best at tabletennis or badminton, and I dont think that great wrestlers will make great sumos, or that Schumacher would have been nearly as good at drifting as he was at F1 driving, and so on.
If they made a new type of racing sport with cars, would Schumacher be better than average at it? Probably. Would he be the very best ever, and eclypse everyone else? Probably not.
Ppl who are really good at one thing are usually just that: Very good at one specific thing.
Its incredibly rare for someone to be the best in their field, and also be the best in every other field that is somewhat closely related even if they have never touched it.
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I'd like to see JD in SC2 if you check PR he is not top 10 anymore.
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Is the new argument now that unless Flash is playing the game--it's a farse?
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On February 14 2012 05:18 dsousa wrote:
MMA had 5 career appearances in BW... one less than Idra. DRG and Leenock had 0.
Data shows BW experience is counting for less and less as SC2 moves along.
Many of the players with the most BW experience have faded away. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow even Boxer, July and Nada.... they are not as strong now as there were a year ago.
Its going the other direction, the Elephant in the Room is that BW players WILL NOT have a career waiting for them in SC2. They missed the boat. SC2 players are too good and too young for older BW pro's to ever catch up now
The reason why they had few appearances is that they didn't get to play. They weren't good enough. That is how BW works. Not everyone gets to play in the tournaments. Only the best do. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow and Boxer played their games quite a while ago. They got to play but not in the recent memory. That is to say, they weren't that good anymore.
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Think there's a correlation-does-not-equal-causation thing going on here. Probably a little causation, but I don't think it's huge.
There are far, far, far more Korean SCBW players than Korean War3 players (or current pros without previous RTS experience). Why is KR SC2 dominated by ex-BW players? Kind of the same reason why foreigner SC2 is dominated by ex-War3 players. Not to mention, I would also hazard a guess that many of the Korean War3 players also have SCBW background by virtue of BW being the more popular game; people who gravitated towards progaming would naturally try it out, while those who enjoyed War3 more went to War3, unless they were too young. Moon especially did have a fairly extensive BW background -- apparently enough to be able to have a 25% win-rate against WMF's B-teamers while he was a full-time War3 pro. I believe he was going to go BW pro until his friend threw War3 on him, and he liked it enough to go for it. Also, for those saying that War3 is an easier game and that BW pros could trounce all the War3 pros -- maybe, maybe not. No way to know now, unless they all decide to play War3. Keep in mind that Midas and Moon did play a bit of War3 together, with Moon on a no-hero handicap (this is huge, btw, for those of you who don't know), and Moon crushed him. Midas incidentally also said that Moon is actually good at BW and that if he played on a similar level of handicap, he wouldn't win against Moon in BW. (Midas, btw, is the guy who said that SC2 is too easy, lumping it in the same category as LoL, and that he tried War3 but that he didn't like the hero-system, which was his main complaint. There was nothing said about War3 being "too easy." Ofc, if Squeegy, our resident War3 hater, can find some quotes from Korean progamers about it, sure, go ahead. AFAIK, most BW progamers either simply didn't like War3 for its hero-system or haven't ever played it.)
Skimmed through the rest of the discussion, and I see someone saying it's "impossible to be good at BW without living in a Korean pro-house." Well, it's impossible to be truly competitive at War3 at the highest level right now unless you up and move to China and basically live there a la ReMinD and Lyn.
It would be great, anyways, if people unfamiliar with certain scenes (whether War3, BW, or SC2) would just not talk about it like they know something about it when they really, really don't. Seeing "July, Boxer, NaDa, fOrGG, Hyun, [insert BW pro here] are failing at SC2 right now, what's up now, bitches???" (lolwat) is as annoying as it was reading "fOrGG's gonna crush through everyone and he's not even a good player!" (... okaaaaay?) and "Lolol, War3 players are shit, even the big-name players aren't putting up results!!11!" (Check was the only "big" Korean War3 player to have been playing SC2 exclusively since the beginning, with Moon, Lyn, and viOlet all playing hybrid for an extensive period of time until recently. Moon also is much more like NaDa in that his glory days were years ago, and he hasn't been able to achieve near the same amount of success in War3 in recent times, when it's much more dominated by players like TH000 and Infi.)
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On February 14 2012 05:13 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:03 setzer wrote:On February 14 2012 04:15 dsousa wrote:
Check out the top players on the right hand side of this page ---->
Even in Korea..... MMA, DRG and Leenock were not BW pro's. A year ago the top 5 had more BW representation (with people like Rainbow, Tester and Fruitdealer being much more relevant
BW influence on SC2 in waning, as is evident by the up and coming crop of players.
The elephant in the room is that there are 10 million 12-15 year old kids, who will soon be entering their prime while having grown up playing SC2. That's what current pro's need to worry about, not people playing another game.
I know it's your mission on this forum to try and disparage BW and it's players but at least attempt to do so without posting blatantly false information. How can you even claim that BW influence is waning when BW is still the most popular game in Korea and there is still a vast number of progamers that could potentially switch from that game and be better than the current best. Wow you didn't even make a counter argument other than just assuming you're right. He said BW's influence on SC2 is waning, not BW in general. And the claim that BW progamers could switch and be the current best is what's being argued here, not what we're already taking as fact.
I could have included more like MMA was a BW pro on SKT1, handpicked by Boxer for SlayerS because of his experience in BW, DRG a CJ practice partner and Leenock one of the best amateurs, but someone else already did. I could have pointed out how ridiculous it is to say there are 10 million 12-15 year olds playing SC2 to become a professional gamer when there aren't even 10 million copies sold.
BW's very direction in Korea influences everything about SC2, from the way OGN/Kespa look at it to players in PC Bangs to sponsors to the players themselves. You simply can't talk about SC2 in Korea and leave out BW.
Anyway, whereas some people here actually make arguments for both sides all dsousa does is make shit up and present it as fact.
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MUST...NOT...POST...IN...THREAD FULL OF IDIOTS... so many poor souls misinformed
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On February 14 2012 05:29 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:18 dsousa wrote:
MMA had 5 career appearances in BW... one less than Idra. DRG and Leenock had 0.
Data shows BW experience is counting for less and less as SC2 moves along.
Many of the players with the most BW experience have faded away. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow even Boxer, July and Nada.... they are not as strong now as there were a year ago.
Its going the other direction, the Elephant in the Room is that BW players WILL NOT have a career waiting for them in SC2. They missed the boat. SC2 players are too good and too young for older BW pro's to ever catch up now The reason why they had few appearances is that they didn't get to play. They weren't good enough. That is how BW works. Not everyone gets to play in the tournaments. Only the best do. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow and Boxer played their games quite a while ago. They got to play but not in the recent memory. That is to say, they weren't that good anymore.
If the reason Boxer, Nada and July haven't dominated in SC2 is because they are too old/on the back-end, then you have to admit that the reason some of these other players didn't succeed in BW could be because they weren't in their prime yet.
Or should someone go back in time and tell MC not to leave BW because no matter how well he does in SC2, he'll always be shit?
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On February 14 2012 04:46 Taiki wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:15 dsousa wrote:
Check out the top players on the right hand side of this page ---->
Even in Korea..... MMA, DRG and Leenock were not BW pro's. A year ago the top 5 had more BW representation (with people like Rainbow, Tester and Fruitdealer being much more relevant
BW influence on SC2 in waning, as is evident by the up and coming crop of players.
The elephant in the room is that there are 10 million 12-15 year old kids, who will soon be entering their prime while having grown up playing SC2. That's what current pro's need to worry about, not people playing another game.
Wait. I'm pretty sure that MMA was on SKT (remember a interview where Oov said that he was sad that MMA switched to SC2) , according to Liquidpedia DRG was on CJ, MvP was on Woongjin and Nestea was on KT. The only one I couldn't find any BW info on was Leenock. I don't really support any side, but right is right. As for my own opinion. I think that if all the BW players switched at the time when this article was writting, most of them would've been the top of SC2 along with those who were already playing the game and the best of the best at BW would've settled comfortably in top10 of SC2. I also don't think there is enough room (in SC2) for a player like Flash to dominate a player like MvP as hard as he would've done in BW.
You really don't think Flash would tear MVP a new one? Watch some of these GSL matches. I understand that the skill ceiling map be believed to be lower in SC2, but nobody plays anywhere near where the top could be. In BW these guys were scrubs in this game they will be scrubs if the badasses of BW dedicate the time to this game. MVP forgetting depot during 2 marine bunker pressure. Multitasking has been forgotten. Dropping a base with 8 marines only to lose them just because mutas are harassing a turret. Floating up to 2k/1k without being maxed. When maxed not using the extra money wisely. When the day comes there will Gods of SC2 and I think that nobody from the Early Days will be left around. It doesn't have to be JD/Flash, but it will be someone who much closer to the skill ceiling than our current "pros".
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On February 14 2012 05:38 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:29 Squeegy wrote:On February 14 2012 05:18 dsousa wrote:
MMA had 5 career appearances in BW... one less than Idra. DRG and Leenock had 0.
Data shows BW experience is counting for less and less as SC2 moves along.
Many of the players with the most BW experience have faded away. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow even Boxer, July and Nada.... they are not as strong now as there were a year ago.
Its going the other direction, the Elephant in the Room is that BW players WILL NOT have a career waiting for them in SC2. They missed the boat. SC2 players are too good and too young for older BW pro's to ever catch up now The reason why they had few appearances is that they didn't get to play. They weren't good enough. That is how BW works. Not everyone gets to play in the tournaments. Only the best do. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow and Boxer played their games quite a while ago. They got to play but not in the recent memory. That is to say, they weren't that good anymore. If the reason Boxer, Nada and July haven't dominated in SC2 is because they are too old/on the back-end, then you have to admit that the reason some of these other players didn't succeed in BW could be because they weren't in their prime yet. Or should someone go back in time and tell MC not to leave BW because no matter how well he does in SC2, he'll always be shit?
Somewhat along the same line (though slightly off-topic), but you know, it's always tickled me to think that because there are so many people in the world who haven't played BW professionally (or at all!), just by pure chance there really has to be someone out there who, once upon a time, could potentially have been just as good or better than Flash if they decided to work towards playing pro in the right environment under the right circumstances. Quick, look at the person sitting next to you in class right now! ^^;
Absurd things I think about. But it's really no more absurd than anything else in this thread, lol.
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On February 14 2012 05:31 babylon wrote:
Think there's a correlation-does-not-equal-causation thing going on here. Probably a little causation, but I don't think it's huge.
There are far, far, far more Korean SCBW players than Korean War3 players (or current pros without previous RTS experience). Why is KR SC2 dominated by ex-BW players? Kind of the same reason why foreigner SC2 is dominated by ex-War3 players. Not to mention, I would also hazard a guess that many of the Korean War3 players also have SCBW background by virtue of BW being the more popular game; people who gravitated towards progaming would naturally try it out, while those who enjoyed War3 more went to War3, unless they were too young. Moon especially did have a fairly extensive BW background -- apparently enough to be able to have a 25% win-rate against WMF's B-teamers while he was a full-time War3 pro. I believe he was going to go BW pro until his friend threw War3 on him, and he liked it enough to go for it. Also, for those saying that War3 is an easier game and that BW pros could trounce all the War3 pros -- maybe, maybe not. No way to know now, unless they all decide to play War3. Keep in mind that Midas and Moon did play a bit of War3 together, with Moon on a no-hero handicap (this is huge, btw, for those of you who don't know), and Moon crushed him. Midas incidentally also said that Moon is actually good at BW and that if he played on a similar level of handicap, he wouldn't win against Moon in BW. (Midas, btw, is the guy who said that SC2 is too easy, lumping it in the same category as LoL, and that he tried War3 but that he didn't like the hero-system, which was his main complaint. There was nothing said about War3 being "too easy." Ofc, if Squeegy, our resident War3 hater, can find some quotes from Korean progamers about it, sure, go ahead. AFAIK, most BW progamers either simply didn't like War3 for its hero-system or haven't ever played it.)
Skimmed through the rest of the discussion, and I see someone saying it's "impossible to be good at BW without living in a Korean pro-house." Well, it's impossible to be truly competitive at War3 at the highest level right now unless you up and move to China and basically live there a la ReMinD and Lyn.
It would be great, anyways, if people unfamiliar with certain scenes (whether War3, BW, or SC2) would just not talk about it like they know something about it when they really, really don't. Seeing "July, Boxer, NaDa, fOrGG, Hyun, [insert BW pro here] are failing at SC2 right now, what's up now, bitches???" (lolwat) is as annoying as it was reading "fOrGG's gonna crush through everyone and he's not even a good player!" (... okaaaaay?) and "Lolol, War3 players are shit, even the big-name players aren't putting up results!!11!" (Check was the only "big" Korean War3 player to have been playing SC2 exclusively since the beginning, with Moon, Lyn, and viOlet all playing hybrid for an extensive period of time until recently. Moon also is much more like NaDa in that his glory days were years ago, and he hasn't been able to achieve near the same amount of success in War3 in recent times, when it's much more dominated by players like TH000 and Infi.)
Just because there are more Korean BW players does not mean there are more Korean BW players playing SC2. WC3 is a dead game. BW is not. Do you have any idea who the top 300 Korean WC3 players were? Me neither. There's still a decent chance a lot of them are playing SC2 but they are not noticeable because the top 300 BW players (or we can even say top 500. The number is not that important.) are that much better.
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On February 14 2012 05:29 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:18 dsousa wrote:
MMA had 5 career appearances in BW... one less than Idra. DRG and Leenock had 0.
Data shows BW experience is counting for less and less as SC2 moves along.
Many of the players with the most BW experience have faded away. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow even Boxer, July and Nada.... they are not as strong now as there were a year ago.
Its going the other direction, the Elephant in the Room is that BW players WILL NOT have a career waiting for them in SC2. They missed the boat. SC2 players are too good and too young for older BW pro's to ever catch up now The reason why they had few appearances is that they didn't get to play. They weren't good enough. That is how BW works. Not everyone gets to play in the tournaments. Only the best do. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow and Boxer played their games quite a while ago. They got to play but not in the recent memory. That is to say, they weren't that good anymore.
The point holds. The top SC2 players now don't have as much experience in BW as the top SC2 pro's a year ago.
The top BW players who moved to SC2, are not as good in SC2 now as there were a year ago.
The trend is down for ex-BW pro's in SC2.
I like BW and agree it compiled an unprecedented amount of gaming talent among its player base, but the data seems to be pointing to a diminishing influence of BW, not an increasing one.
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On February 14 2012 05:47 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:38 Jerubaal wrote:On February 14 2012 05:29 Squeegy wrote:On February 14 2012 05:18 dsousa wrote:
MMA had 5 career appearances in BW... one less than Idra. DRG and Leenock had 0.
Data shows BW experience is counting for less and less as SC2 moves along.
Many of the players with the most BW experience have faded away. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow even Boxer, July and Nada.... they are not as strong now as there were a year ago.
Its going the other direction, the Elephant in the Room is that BW players WILL NOT have a career waiting for them in SC2. They missed the boat. SC2 players are too good and too young for older BW pro's to ever catch up now The reason why they had few appearances is that they didn't get to play. They weren't good enough. That is how BW works. Not everyone gets to play in the tournaments. Only the best do. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow and Boxer played their games quite a while ago. They got to play but not in the recent memory. That is to say, they weren't that good anymore. If the reason Boxer, Nada and July haven't dominated in SC2 is because they are too old/on the back-end, then you have to admit that the reason some of these other players didn't succeed in BW could be because they weren't in their prime yet. Or should someone go back in time and tell MC not to leave BW because no matter how well he does in SC2, he'll always be shit? Somewhat along the same line (though slightly off-topic), but you know, it's always tickled me to think that because there are so many people in the world who haven't played BW professionally (or at all!), just by pure chance there really has to be someone out there who, once upon a time, could potentially have been just as good or better than Flash if they decided to work towards playing pro in the right environment under the right circumstances. Quick, look at the person sitting next to you in class right now! ^^; Absurd things I think about. But it's really no more absurd than anything else in this thread, lol.
It is possible. I doubt many people deny that. It is also possible that there is someone more talented than Messi who just doesn't play football. It is also possible that a meteor will cause extinction of the human race tomorrow. Just because something is possible does not mean it's true or that it's relevant.
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On February 14 2012 05:36 Grampz wrote:
MUST...NOT...POST...IN...THREAD FULL OF IDIOTS... so many poor souls misinformed
Can you at least give us a clue? I'm just curious now which side of the argument you're on.
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On February 14 2012 05:38 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:29 Squeegy wrote:On February 14 2012 05:18 dsousa wrote:
MMA had 5 career appearances in BW... one less than Idra. DRG and Leenock had 0.
Data shows BW experience is counting for less and less as SC2 moves along.
Many of the players with the most BW experience have faded away. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow even Boxer, July and Nada.... they are not as strong now as there were a year ago.
Its going the other direction, the Elephant in the Room is that BW players WILL NOT have a career waiting for them in SC2. They missed the boat. SC2 players are too good and too young for older BW pro's to ever catch up now The reason why they had few appearances is that they didn't get to play. They weren't good enough. That is how BW works. Not everyone gets to play in the tournaments. Only the best do. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow and Boxer played their games quite a while ago. They got to play but not in the recent memory. That is to say, they weren't that good anymore. If the reason Boxer, Nada and July haven't dominated in SC2 is because they are too old/on the back-end, then you have to admit that the reason some of these other players didn't succeed in BW could be because they weren't in their prime yet. Or should someone go back in time and tell MC not to leave BW because no matter how well he does in SC2, he'll always be shit?
In many cases it's because they weren't good enough. It's a number of things.
NaDa, BoxeR and July.. Been there; done that. They were already slumping when they switched. Boxer never got air time after returning from ACE, NaDa was demoted and the same could be said for July.
Like I said before, they all have their reasons and from what I've seen NaDa, BoxeR and July don't have the same hunger/drive and their motivations are completely different. They are humbled.
As far as age goes. We've already had FD, Nestea, MC, MVP show their worth in SC2 and none of them were go to guys for their teams in BW (MVP was mediocre at best when he switched) and everyone in your list has been around a BW pro team for a while.
You would have made a better argument if you listed off players like Leenock and co. as they were relatively young, fresh up-and-comers in BW when they switched. -_-
That works; the other guys not so much.
A lot of the young pro's switched at an opportune time.
the data seems to be pointing to a diminishing influence of BW, not an increasing one.
That has more to do with the diminishing talent pool as a lot of ex-BW players have already made the switch and the fact the amount of pro teams is decreasing and there just isn't enough roster slots. Really need more sponsors to invest.
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On February 14 2012 05:29 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:18 dsousa wrote:
MMA had 5 career appearances in BW... one less than Idra. DRG and Leenock had 0.
Data shows BW experience is counting for less and less as SC2 moves along.
Many of the players with the most BW experience have faded away. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow even Boxer, July and Nada.... they are not as strong now as there were a year ago.
Its going the other direction, the Elephant in the Room is that BW players WILL NOT have a career waiting for them in SC2. They missed the boat. SC2 players are too good and too young for older BW pro's to ever catch up now The reason why they had few appearances is that they didn't get to play. They weren't good enough. That is how BW works. Not everyone gets to play in the tournaments. Only the best do. Fruitdealer, Tester, Rainbow and Boxer played their games quite a while ago. They got to play but not in the recent memory. That is to say, they weren't that good anymore.
So because DRG was worse than FD.. he was actually better. What you're saying doesn't really disprove his point unless we believe players only have a small window in their lives where they'll be good at a game.
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On February 14 2012 05:38 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:46 Taiki wrote:On February 14 2012 04:15 dsousa wrote:
Check out the top players on the right hand side of this page ---->
Even in Korea..... MMA, DRG and Leenock were not BW pro's. A year ago the top 5 had more BW representation (with people like Rainbow, Tester and Fruitdealer being much more relevant
BW influence on SC2 in waning, as is evident by the up and coming crop of players.
The elephant in the room is that there are 10 million 12-15 year old kids, who will soon be entering their prime while having grown up playing SC2. That's what current pro's need to worry about, not people playing another game.
Wait. I'm pretty sure that MMA was on SKT (remember a interview where Oov said that he was sad that MMA switched to SC2) , according to Liquidpedia DRG was on CJ, MvP was on Woongjin and Nestea was on KT. The only one I couldn't find any BW info on was Leenock. I don't really support any side, but right is right. As for my own opinion. I think that if all the BW players switched at the time when this article was writting, most of them would've been the top of SC2 along with those who were already playing the game and the best of the best at BW would've settled comfortably in top10 of SC2. I also don't think there is enough room (in SC2) for a player like Flash to dominate a player like MvP as hard as he would've done in BW. You really don't think Flash would tear MVP a new one? Watch some of these GSL matches. I understand that the skill ceiling map be believed to be lower in SC2, but nobody plays anywhere near where the top could be. In BW these guys were scrubs in this game they will be scrubs if the badasses of BW dedicate the time to this game. MVP forgetting depot during 2 marine bunker pressure. Multitasking has been forgotten. Dropping a base with 8 marines only to lose them just because mutas are harassing a turret. Floating up to 2k/1k without being maxed. When maxed not using the extra money wisely. When the day comes there will Gods of SC2 and I think that nobody from the Early Days will be left around. It doesn't have to be JD/Flash, but it will be someone who much closer to the skill ceiling than our current "pros".
I don't think that the skill ceiling is reached in SC2 (I would be dissapointed if it was). However I don't think that Flash would've been so outstanding in SC2 as he is in BW due to the ease of SC2 mechanics compared to BW ones. It would just be sad to see Flash play around with Bio instead of making glorious tank tank pushes.
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EPT
