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On February 14 2012 03:45 Seraphone wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:44 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 03:15 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:08 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 01:29 Djabanete wrote:On February 14 2012 01:27 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 01:17 Seraphone wrote:On February 13 2012 23:03 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:31 Squeegy wrote:
[quote]
Now, now, don't be so hard on yourself. But when you are willing to learn, do come back to me. I will gladly teach you. Meanwhile, make sure you don't strain yourself working at that assembly line.
So you agree 100% with what the article tried to convey. That is with what I've been saying. I think you are a very confused one. You should make up your mind.
[quote]
You'd think the best RTS player would do better in an RTS. No, there are many BW players better than him. Moon>Flash in WC3 (from what they have achieved yet) Moon>Flash in SC2 (from what they have achieved yet) Flash>Moon in BW (from what they have achieved yet) 2-1 for Moon in terms of in how many categories they have competed on high level. (Flash is just an example... read Jaedong/Bisu/anyone who has played BW only until now if you want to) Other objective indicators?! Prize money? I think Moon is the one who won the most money with gaming yet, but don't know. Couldn't google the exact stats, but I think Artosis mentioned it somewhere in the OpenGSL seasons. Market value? He had best contract up to now of all esport gamers with 500.000$ for 3years at WeMadeFox. Not saying he is the best (I don't think anyone can be the best in a such a huge genre... that's like saying Albert Einstein was the best scientist ever...), but a lot of objective indicators that I know of all point towards him. Of course if you argue NaDa or Boxer or even Grubby, it will become a lot more tricky... This is a truly ridiculous post. Just unbelievably absurd. you care to say why, or is it just a rediculous post? Like green is just the same as blue. I'd tend to think the best RTS player is Flash, but maybe I just don't understand how good Moon was at WC3. I'd also tend to think BW is a better RTS than WC3, but maybe I just don't understand how good WC3 is. Basically, it's a meaningless comparison. But if I gave each of them one year to master an RTS and then play a Bo7, I'd bet on Flash to win every single match (including SC2) except WC3. (Wow, I looked at Moon's wiki page and it seems like he's won a lot. That is cool!) Edit: Also, I don't know about WC3 being less competitive. It was the first truly globally competitive e-sport. An argument could be made that it was "easier to learn" but as SCBW was only truly competitive in Korea, while WC3 had top players from around the world (Grubby, Sky, and Moon being the pinnacle of the three main regions), I've got to give it to WC3 for being more competitive as it had a larger competitive player base to draw from. Quoting the part I edited in after a half hour. The more I think about that actually the more true I believe it is that WC3 was the more competitive game. Yeah Korea has a HUGE population of SCBW players, and a few competitive international players as well of course... But WC3 has all that, more europeans and MOTHERFUGGIN CHINA. So I mean... that's a SERIOUS note in the talk of "best RTS player". But still, I agree that it's an awful lot like asking "who is the best player at sports". Most will realize it's a stupid question, others (such as myself) will vehemently claim Wayne Gretzky, or Mohamed Ali, or Michael Jordan because we fucking love Wayne Gretzky or "those other guys". It's fanboyism and it's awesome but it often gets taken to extremes, which has happened a lot in this thread. Even if CLEARLY the Great One is the best.  Your point is wrong because while Wc3 was more international there was far more people in Korea alone making a living (i.e playing professionally not needing to work/study/sponge off parents) playing BW in Korea than in the entire Wc3 scene.
It doesn't matter which country something happened in so long as it is on a greater scale.Also the sole fact Wc3 was international is testament to how much easier it was to be good. You literally had zero chance of every being at all competitive in BW without living in a Korean pro house. You could easily play from home and grind Battle.net and be good at Wc3. Why do you think you know more than Sase and Naniwa who have both stated that it is much harder to be a top player in Sc2 than Wc3 nevermind BW. Lionel Messi is the best active football player (by professional voting, the generally accepted decisionmaking for that term in football; 3times in a row). Football is the biggest sport (greater scale than any other sport; more active players, professionals, fans, viewers). By your logic Lionel Messi is the one true and undisputed best active sportsman in the world. I rest my case, your logic has beaten me. Messi is the best active sportsman in the world so no problem.
Ok... I just hope he is never gonna switch to basketball. I heard you gotta be really tall for that sport.
(not even want to think about him playing chess or something)
But by your logic... no problem 
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On February 14 2012 04:02 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:45 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:44 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 03:15 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:08 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 01:29 Djabanete wrote:On February 14 2012 01:27 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 01:17 Seraphone wrote:On February 13 2012 23:03 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Moon>Flash in WC3 (from what they have achieved yet)
Moon>Flash in SC2 (from what they have achieved yet)
Flash>Moon in BW (from what they have achieved yet)
2-1 for Moon in terms of in how many categories they have competed on high level. (Flash is just an example... read Jaedong/Bisu/anyone who has played BW only until now if you want to)
Other objective indicators?!
Prize money? I think Moon is the one who won the most money with gaming yet, but don't know. Couldn't google the exact stats, but I think Artosis mentioned it somewhere in the OpenGSL seasons.
Market value? He had best contract up to now of all esport gamers with 500.000$ for 3years at WeMadeFox.
Not saying he is the best (I don't think anyone can be the best in a such a huge genre... that's like saying Albert Einstein was the best scientist ever...), but a lot of objective indicators that I know of all point towards him.
Of course if you argue NaDa or Boxer or even Grubby, it will become a lot more tricky... This is a truly ridiculous post. Just unbelievably absurd. you care to say why, or is it just a rediculous post? Like green is just the same as blue. I'd tend to think the best RTS player is Flash, but maybe I just don't understand how good Moon was at WC3. I'd also tend to think BW is a better RTS than WC3, but maybe I just don't understand how good WC3 is. Basically, it's a meaningless comparison. But if I gave each of them one year to master an RTS and then play a Bo7, I'd bet on Flash to win every single match (including SC2) except WC3. (Wow, I looked at Moon's wiki page and it seems like he's won a lot. That is cool!) Edit: Also, I don't know about WC3 being less competitive. It was the first truly globally competitive e-sport. An argument could be made that it was "easier to learn" but as SCBW was only truly competitive in Korea, while WC3 had top players from around the world (Grubby, Sky, and Moon being the pinnacle of the three main regions), I've got to give it to WC3 for being more competitive as it had a larger competitive player base to draw from. Quoting the part I edited in after a half hour. The more I think about that actually the more true I believe it is that WC3 was the more competitive game. Yeah Korea has a HUGE population of SCBW players, and a few competitive international players as well of course... But WC3 has all that, more europeans and MOTHERFUGGIN CHINA. So I mean... that's a SERIOUS note in the talk of "best RTS player". But still, I agree that it's an awful lot like asking "who is the best player at sports". Most will realize it's a stupid question, others (such as myself) will vehemently claim Wayne Gretzky, or Mohamed Ali, or Michael Jordan because we fucking love Wayne Gretzky or "those other guys". It's fanboyism and it's awesome but it often gets taken to extremes, which has happened a lot in this thread. Even if CLEARLY the Great One is the best. Your point is wrong because while Wc3 was more international there was far more people in Korea alone making a living (i.e playing professionally not needing to work/study/sponge off parents) playing BW in Korea than in the entire Wc3 scene.
It doesn't matter which country something happened in so long as it is on a greater scale.Also the sole fact Wc3 was international is testament to how much easier it was to be good. You literally had zero chance of every being at all competitive in BW without living in a Korean pro house. You could easily play from home and grind Battle.net and be good at Wc3. Why do you think you know more than Sase and Naniwa who have both stated that it is much harder to be a top player in Sc2 than Wc3 nevermind BW. Lionel Messi is the best active football player (by professional voting, the generally accepted decisionmaking for that term in football; 3times in a row). Football is the biggest sport (greater scale than any other sport; more active players, professionals, fans, viewers). By your logic Lionel Messi is the one true and undisputed best active sportsman in the world. I rest my case, your logic has beaten me. Messi is the best active sportsman in the world so no problem. Ok... I just hope he is never gonna switch to basketball. I heard you gotta be really tall for that sport. (not even want to think about him playing chess or something) But by your logic... no problem
I take that back actually, Tiger Woods is the best.
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On February 14 2012 04:06 Seraphone wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:02 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 03:45 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:44 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 03:15 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:08 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 01:29 Djabanete wrote:On February 14 2012 01:27 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 01:17 Seraphone wrote:
[quote]
This is a truly ridiculous post. Just unbelievably absurd.
you care to say why, or is it just a rediculous post? Like green is just the same as blue. I'd tend to think the best RTS player is Flash, but maybe I just don't understand how good Moon was at WC3. I'd also tend to think BW is a better RTS than WC3, but maybe I just don't understand how good WC3 is. Basically, it's a meaningless comparison. But if I gave each of them one year to master an RTS and then play a Bo7, I'd bet on Flash to win every single match (including SC2) except WC3. (Wow, I looked at Moon's wiki page and it seems like he's won a lot. That is cool!) Edit: Also, I don't know about WC3 being less competitive. It was the first truly globally competitive e-sport. An argument could be made that it was "easier to learn" but as SCBW was only truly competitive in Korea, while WC3 had top players from around the world (Grubby, Sky, and Moon being the pinnacle of the three main regions), I've got to give it to WC3 for being more competitive as it had a larger competitive player base to draw from. Quoting the part I edited in after a half hour. The more I think about that actually the more true I believe it is that WC3 was the more competitive game. Yeah Korea has a HUGE population of SCBW players, and a few competitive international players as well of course... But WC3 has all that, more europeans and MOTHERFUGGIN CHINA. So I mean... that's a SERIOUS note in the talk of "best RTS player". But still, I agree that it's an awful lot like asking "who is the best player at sports". Most will realize it's a stupid question, others (such as myself) will vehemently claim Wayne Gretzky, or Mohamed Ali, or Michael Jordan because we fucking love Wayne Gretzky or "those other guys". It's fanboyism and it's awesome but it often gets taken to extremes, which has happened a lot in this thread. Even if CLEARLY the Great One is the best. Your point is wrong because while Wc3 was more international there was far more people in Korea alone making a living (i.e playing professionally not needing to work/study/sponge off parents) playing BW in Korea than in the entire Wc3 scene.
It doesn't matter which country something happened in so long as it is on a greater scale.Also the sole fact Wc3 was international is testament to how much easier it was to be good. You literally had zero chance of every being at all competitive in BW without living in a Korean pro house. You could easily play from home and grind Battle.net and be good at Wc3. Why do you think you know more than Sase and Naniwa who have both stated that it is much harder to be a top player in Sc2 than Wc3 nevermind BW. Lionel Messi is the best active football player (by professional voting, the generally accepted decisionmaking for that term in football; 3times in a row). Football is the biggest sport (greater scale than any other sport; more active players, professionals, fans, viewers). By your logic Lionel Messi is the one true and undisputed best active sportsman in the world. I rest my case, your logic has beaten me. Messi is the best active sportsman in the world so no problem. Ok... I just hope he is never gonna switch to basketball. I heard you gotta be really tall for that sport. (not even want to think about him playing chess or something) But by your logic... no problem I take that back actually, Tiger Woods is the best.
then either you are wrong with that, or your logic is wrong, because your logic says Messi is the best.
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On February 14 2012 04:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:06 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 04:02 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 03:45 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:44 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 03:15 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:08 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 01:29 Djabanete wrote:On February 14 2012 01:27 Big J wrote:
[quote]
you care to say why, or is it just a rediculous post?
Like green is just the same as blue. I'd tend to think the best RTS player is Flash, but maybe I just don't understand how good Moon was at WC3. I'd also tend to think BW is a better RTS than WC3, but maybe I just don't understand how good WC3 is. Basically, it's a meaningless comparison. But if I gave each of them one year to master an RTS and then play a Bo7, I'd bet on Flash to win every single match (including SC2) except WC3. (Wow, I looked at Moon's wiki page and it seems like he's won a lot. That is cool!) Edit: Also, I don't know about WC3 being less competitive. It was the first truly globally competitive e-sport. An argument could be made that it was "easier to learn" but as SCBW was only truly competitive in Korea, while WC3 had top players from around the world (Grubby, Sky, and Moon being the pinnacle of the three main regions), I've got to give it to WC3 for being more competitive as it had a larger competitive player base to draw from. Quoting the part I edited in after a half hour. The more I think about that actually the more true I believe it is that WC3 was the more competitive game. Yeah Korea has a HUGE population of SCBW players, and a few competitive international players as well of course... But WC3 has all that, more europeans and MOTHERFUGGIN CHINA. So I mean... that's a SERIOUS note in the talk of "best RTS player". But still, I agree that it's an awful lot like asking "who is the best player at sports". Most will realize it's a stupid question, others (such as myself) will vehemently claim Wayne Gretzky, or Mohamed Ali, or Michael Jordan because we fucking love Wayne Gretzky or "those other guys". It's fanboyism and it's awesome but it often gets taken to extremes, which has happened a lot in this thread. Even if CLEARLY the Great One is the best. Your point is wrong because while Wc3 was more international there was far more people in Korea alone making a living (i.e playing professionally not needing to work/study/sponge off parents) playing BW in Korea than in the entire Wc3 scene.
It doesn't matter which country something happened in so long as it is on a greater scale.Also the sole fact Wc3 was international is testament to how much easier it was to be good. You literally had zero chance of every being at all competitive in BW without living in a Korean pro house. You could easily play from home and grind Battle.net and be good at Wc3. Why do you think you know more than Sase and Naniwa who have both stated that it is much harder to be a top player in Sc2 than Wc3 nevermind BW. Lionel Messi is the best active football player (by professional voting, the generally accepted decisionmaking for that term in football; 3times in a row). Football is the biggest sport (greater scale than any other sport; more active players, professionals, fans, viewers). By your logic Lionel Messi is the one true and undisputed best active sportsman in the world. I rest my case, your logic has beaten me. Messi is the best active sportsman in the world so no problem. Ok... I just hope he is never gonna switch to basketball. I heard you gotta be really tall for that sport. (not even want to think about him playing chess or something) But by your logic... no problem I take that back actually, Tiger Woods is the best. then either you are wrong with that, or your logic is wrong, because your logic says Messi is the best.
Nope, wrong again I'm afraid.
Football might be the most popular sports but Golf is also extremely popular and difficult and Messi is not the greatest footballer of all time, he's just the current best, where as Tiger Woods is the greatest of all time. Which puts him ahead of Messi.
Moon is the greatest of all time (only just over Grubby) in a far inferior game which is much easier to be the best in. Where as he's up against the absolute undisputed greatest of all time in a superior game in Flash.
There is a balance to be struck and Moon falls way short of it, where as Tiger Woods does not.
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Check out the top players on the right hand side of this page ---->
Even in Korea..... MMA, DRG and Leenock were not BW pro's. A year ago the top 5 had more BW representation (with people like Rainbow, Tester and Fruitdealer being much more relevant
BW influence on SC2 in waning, as is evident by the up and coming crop of players.
The elephant in the room is that there are 10 million 12-15 year old kids, who will soon be entering their prime while having grown up playing SC2. That's what current pro's need to worry about, not people playing another game.
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On February 12 2012 21:33 david0925 wrote:
Saying SC2 has a low skill ceiling is just a roundabout way of saying how BW is harder than SC2 and how people wish SC2 kept the old things from BW.
I know BW has that immaculate place in a lot of old fans' hearts, but let's be realistic here.
1.Even pros make tons of macro or mechanic mistakes. People have been arguing that pros in SC2 suck compared to pros in BW, and we can't really confirm or deny that notion until those players deemed good BW players make the shift and either prosper or fail in the SC2 scene.
2.A lot of changes from BW to SC2 are just quality of life changes. Sure they are "easier", but that's no different than doing complicated math with a calculator or screwing in bolts with an electric screwdriver: the tools improve. If you really want to play the old way you can limit yourself to 12 units per control group, set your miner rally next to mineral lines, and individually group up casters to avoid smartcasts. I do not have a good proposal of how to make your Stalkers mimic the retarded Dragoon movement in BW though.
Well, the reason why they say the SC2 pros suck compared to the SC1 pros is because the SC2 pros are ex-brood war players that were considered nothing more the mediocre, MVP included. MC was known as the "Suicide Toss" namely because he did a ceremony before the game and always ended up losing thus making him a laughing stock of the scene.
However, I think the argument should be left alone because well...It isn't really solving anything and it's really matter of opinion (besides the evidence from the past about SC-2 Pros).
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On February 14 2012 04:11 Seraphone wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:08 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 04:06 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 04:02 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 03:45 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:44 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 03:15 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:08 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 01:29 Djabanete wrote:
[quote]
I'd tend to think the best RTS player is Flash, but maybe I just don't understand how good Moon was at WC3. I'd also tend to think BW is a better RTS than WC3, but maybe I just don't understand how good WC3 is.
Basically, it's a meaningless comparison. But if I gave each of them one year to master an RTS and then play a Bo7, I'd bet on Flash to win every single match (including SC2) except WC3.
(Wow, I looked at Moon's wiki page and it seems like he's won a lot. That is cool!) Edit: Also, I don't know about WC3 being less competitive. It was the first truly globally competitive e-sport. An argument could be made that it was "easier to learn" but as SCBW was only truly competitive in Korea, while WC3 had top players from around the world (Grubby, Sky, and Moon being the pinnacle of the three main regions), I've got to give it to WC3 for being more competitive as it had a larger competitive player base to draw from. Quoting the part I edited in after a half hour. The more I think about that actually the more true I believe it is that WC3 was the more competitive game. Yeah Korea has a HUGE population of SCBW players, and a few competitive international players as well of course... But WC3 has all that, more europeans and MOTHERFUGGIN CHINA. So I mean... that's a SERIOUS note in the talk of "best RTS player". But still, I agree that it's an awful lot like asking "who is the best player at sports". Most will realize it's a stupid question, others (such as myself) will vehemently claim Wayne Gretzky, or Mohamed Ali, or Michael Jordan because we fucking love Wayne Gretzky or "those other guys". It's fanboyism and it's awesome but it often gets taken to extremes, which has happened a lot in this thread. Even if CLEARLY the Great One is the best. Your point is wrong because while Wc3 was more international there was far more people in Korea alone making a living (i.e playing professionally not needing to work/study/sponge off parents) playing BW in Korea than in the entire Wc3 scene.
It doesn't matter which country something happened in so long as it is on a greater scale.Also the sole fact Wc3 was international is testament to how much easier it was to be good. You literally had zero chance of every being at all competitive in BW without living in a Korean pro house. You could easily play from home and grind Battle.net and be good at Wc3. Why do you think you know more than Sase and Naniwa who have both stated that it is much harder to be a top player in Sc2 than Wc3 nevermind BW. Lionel Messi is the best active football player (by professional voting, the generally accepted decisionmaking for that term in football; 3times in a row). Football is the biggest sport (greater scale than any other sport; more active players, professionals, fans, viewers). By your logic Lionel Messi is the one true and undisputed best active sportsman in the world. I rest my case, your logic has beaten me. Messi is the best active sportsman in the world so no problem. Ok... I just hope he is never gonna switch to basketball. I heard you gotta be really tall for that sport. (not even want to think about him playing chess or something) But by your logic... no problem I take that back actually, Tiger Woods is the best. then either you are wrong with that, or your logic is wrong, because your logic says Messi is the best. Nope, wrong again I'm afraid. Football might be the most popular sports but Golf is also extremely popular and difficult and Messi is not the greatest footballer of all time, he's just the current best, where as Tiger Woods is the greatest of all time. Which puts him ahead of Messi. Moon is the greatest of all time (only just over Grubby) in a far inferior game which is much easier to be the best in. Where as he's up against the absolute undisputed greatest of all time in a superior game in Flash. There is a balance to be struck and Moon falls way short of it, where as Tiger Woods does not.
From wikipedia
At the turn of the 21st century, the game was played by over 250 million players in over 200 countries, making it the world's most popular sport. - football has the greater scale --> Messi is the best by your logic.
Also I wrote active sportsman. Not in the last post, but if you have something called memory, I'm sure you will remember it.
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On February 14 2012 03:50 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:15 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:08 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 01:29 Djabanete wrote:On February 14 2012 01:27 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 01:17 Seraphone wrote:On February 13 2012 23:03 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:31 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 19:18 Longshank wrote:
[quote]
You are correct, I truly do not understand, and I probably never will. Much like a child being taught algebra by a donkey, it's futile. I just hope you understand why there is confusion when by 'dominate' he meant 'playing roughly at the same level as', 'SC2 scene' was really 'non ex-BW players' and now when the 300 players that could come in and dominate at any given time also includes the current(at the time) 40-50 ex-bw pros that had already switched.
[quote]
I agree 100% with this. The problem is the language and the construction of the OP. He could have chosen a different approach, one more balanced and leveled, one that wouldn't alienate 90% of the readers. He didn't unfortunately.
I'm done with this topic, the ugly thing can not die if I keep bumping it :/
Now, now, don't be so hard on yourself. But when you are willing to learn, do come back to me. I will gladly teach you. Meanwhile, make sure you don't strain yourself working at that assembly line. So you agree 100% with what the article tried to convey. That is with what I've been saying. I think you are a very confused one. You should make up your mind. On February 13 2012 15:47 canikizu wrote:
[quote]
I'm thinking Moon tbh lolz. You'd think the best RTS player would do better in an RTS. No, there are many BW players better than him. Moon>Flash in WC3 (from what they have achieved yet) Moon>Flash in SC2 (from what they have achieved yet) Flash>Moon in BW (from what they have achieved yet) 2-1 for Moon in terms of in how many categories they have competed on high level. (Flash is just an example... read Jaedong/Bisu/anyone who has played BW only until now if you want to) Other objective indicators?! Prize money? I think Moon is the one who won the most money with gaming yet, but don't know. Couldn't google the exact stats, but I think Artosis mentioned it somewhere in the OpenGSL seasons. Market value? He had best contract up to now of all esport gamers with 500.000$ for 3years at WeMadeFox. Not saying he is the best (I don't think anyone can be the best in a such a huge genre... that's like saying Albert Einstein was the best scientist ever...), but a lot of objective indicators that I know of all point towards him. Of course if you argue NaDa or Boxer or even Grubby, it will become a lot more tricky... This is a truly ridiculous post. Just unbelievably absurd. you care to say why, or is it just a rediculous post? Like green is just the same as blue. I'd tend to think the best RTS player is Flash, but maybe I just don't understand how good Moon was at WC3. I'd also tend to think BW is a better RTS than WC3, but maybe I just don't understand how good WC3 is. Basically, it's a meaningless comparison. But if I gave each of them one year to master an RTS and then play a Bo7, I'd bet on Flash to win every single match (including SC2) except WC3. (Wow, I looked at Moon's wiki page and it seems like he's won a lot. That is cool!) Edit: Also, I don't know about WC3 being less competitive. It was the first truly globally competitive e-sport. An argument could be made that it was "easier to learn" but as SCBW was only truly competitive in Korea, while WC3 had top players from around the world (Grubby, Sky, and Moon being the pinnacle of the three main regions), I've got to give it to WC3 for being more competitive as it had a larger competitive player base to draw from. Quoting the part I edited in after a half hour. The more I think about that actually the more true I believe it is that WC3 was the more competitive game. Yeah Korea has a HUGE population of SCBW players, and a few competitive international players as well of course... But WC3 has all that, more europeans and MOTHERFUGGIN CHINA. So I mean... that's a SERIOUS note in the talk of "best RTS player". But still, I agree that it's an awful lot like asking "who is the best player at sports". Most will realize it's a stupid question, others (such as myself) will vehemently claim Wayne Gretzky, or Mohamed Ali, or Michael Jordan because we fucking love Wayne Gretzky or "those other guys". It's fanboyism and it's awesome but it often gets taken to extremes, which has happened a lot in this thread. Even if CLEARLY the Great One is the best. Your point is wrong because while Wc3 was more international there was far more people in Korea alone making a living (i.e playing professionally not needing to work/study/sponge off parents) playing BW in Korea than in the entire Wc3 scene. It doesn't matter which country something happened in so long as it is on a greater scale. Also the sole fact Wc3 was international is testament to how much easier it was to be good. You literally had zero chance of every being at all competitive in BW without living in a Korean pro house. You could easily play from home and grind Battle.net and be good at Wc3. Why do you think you know more than Sase and Naniwa who have both stated that it is much harder to be a top player in Sc2 than Wc3 nevermind BW. Really buddy? Are you actually telling me there were more people playing SCBW at it's peak in Korea than playing WC3 at it's peak in China, Korea and Europe combined? Hell, I'm pretty certain that even if you just compared SCBW in Korea to WC3 in China, Korea get's it's ass handed to it. And of course WC3 players are saying it's harder to be a top player in SC2 than WC3, it's a different game than the game that they had grown up playing and being competitive players in. SC2 and SCBW are economy based RTS games, WC3 is not. That doesn't mean that WC3 is less competitive just that they are different games
well there are most likely more people playing wc3. but they dont play it for Wc3. they play it for dota.
so if u talk about wc3 players (not dota) yes SCBW has more players. if u add the Dota players in most likely not.
and plz... Thorzain and Naniwa werent that top players in wc3... so dunno hwo they can say its easier if they werent at the top in wc3.
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On February 14 2012 04:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:11 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 04:08 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 04:06 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 04:02 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 03:45 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:44 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 03:15 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:08 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 TheDougler wrote:
[quote]
Edit: Also, I don't know about WC3 being less competitive. It was the first truly globally competitive e-sport. An argument could be made that it was "easier to learn" but as SCBW was only truly competitive in Korea, while WC3 had top players from around the world (Grubby, Sky, and Moon being the pinnacle of the three main regions), I've got to give it to WC3 for being more competitive as it had a larger competitive player base to draw from. Quoting the part I edited in after a half hour. The more I think about that actually the more true I believe it is that WC3 was the more competitive game. Yeah Korea has a HUGE population of SCBW players, and a few competitive international players as well of course... But WC3 has all that, more europeans and MOTHERFUGGIN CHINA. So I mean... that's a SERIOUS note in the talk of "best RTS player". But still, I agree that it's an awful lot like asking "who is the best player at sports". Most will realize it's a stupid question, others (such as myself) will vehemently claim Wayne Gretzky, or Mohamed Ali, or Michael Jordan because we fucking love Wayne Gretzky or "those other guys". It's fanboyism and it's awesome but it often gets taken to extremes, which has happened a lot in this thread. Even if CLEARLY the Great One is the best. Your point is wrong because while Wc3 was more international there was far more people in Korea alone making a living (i.e playing professionally not needing to work/study/sponge off parents) playing BW in Korea than in the entire Wc3 scene.
It doesn't matter which country something happened in so long as it is on a greater scale.Also the sole fact Wc3 was international is testament to how much easier it was to be good. You literally had zero chance of every being at all competitive in BW without living in a Korean pro house. You could easily play from home and grind Battle.net and be good at Wc3. Why do you think you know more than Sase and Naniwa who have both stated that it is much harder to be a top player in Sc2 than Wc3 nevermind BW. Lionel Messi is the best active football player (by professional voting, the generally accepted decisionmaking for that term in football; 3times in a row). Football is the biggest sport (greater scale than any other sport; more active players, professionals, fans, viewers). By your logic Lionel Messi is the one true and undisputed best active sportsman in the world. I rest my case, your logic has beaten me. Messi is the best active sportsman in the world so no problem. Ok... I just hope he is never gonna switch to basketball. I heard you gotta be really tall for that sport. (not even want to think about him playing chess or something) But by your logic... no problem I take that back actually, Tiger Woods is the best. then either you are wrong with that, or your logic is wrong, because your logic says Messi is the best. Nope, wrong again I'm afraid. Football might be the most popular sports but Golf is also extremely popular and difficult and Messi is not the greatest footballer of all time, he's just the current best, where as Tiger Woods is the greatest of all time. Which puts him ahead of Messi. Moon is the greatest of all time (only just over Grubby) in a far inferior game which is much easier to be the best in. Where as he's up against the absolute undisputed greatest of all time in a superior game in Flash. There is a balance to be struck and Moon falls way short of it, where as Tiger Woods does not. From wikipedia At the turn of the 21st century, the game was played by over 250 million players in over 200 countries, making it the world's most popular sport. - football has the greater scale --> Messi is the best by your logic. Also I wrote active sportsman. Not in the last post, but if you have something called memory, I'm sure you will remember it.
You completely missed the point.
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On February 14 2012 04:15 dsousa wrote:
Check out the top players on the right hand side of this page ---->
Even in Korea..... MMA, DRG and Leenock were not BW pro's. A year ago the top 5 had more BW representation (with people like Rainbow, Tester and Fruitdealer being much more relevant
BW influence on SC2 in waning, as is evident by the up and coming crop of players.
The elephant in the room is that there are 10 million 12-15 year old kids, who will soon be entering their prime while having grown up playing SC2. That's what current pro's need to worry about, not people playing another game.
MMA was on SKT1 and DRG was a CJ practice partner...
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On February 14 2012 04:15 dsousa wrote:
Check out the top players on the right hand side of this page ---->
Even in Korea..... MMA, DRG and Leenock were not BW pro's. A year ago the top 5 had more BW representation (with people like Rainbow, Tester and Fruitdealer being much more relevant
BW influence on SC2 in waning, as is evident by the up and coming crop of players.
The elephant in the room is that there are 10 million 12-15 year old kids, who will soon be entering their prime while having grown up playing SC2. That's what current pro's need to worry about, not people playing another game.
MMA and DRG were bw pros though, just not very successful ones. It was bw that got them into sc2...
Also lolol @ 10-15 million players. There's only several hundred thousand sc2 players in Korea, and maybe two million in the world. Plus not all of them are kids...
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On February 14 2012 04:11 Seraphone wrote:
Then either you are wrong with that, or your logic is wrong, because your logic says Messi is the best.
Nope, wrong again I'm afraid.
Football might be the most popular sports but Golf is also extremely popular and difficult and Messi is not the greatest footballer of all time, he's just the current best, where as Tiger Woods is the greatest of all time. Which puts him ahead of Messi.
Tiger being the best golfer ever is debatable.
On February 14 2012 04:11 Seraphone wrote:
Moon is the greatest of all time (only just over Grubby) in a far inferior game which is much easier to be the best in. Where as he's up against the absolute undisputed greatest of all time in a superior game in Flash.
There is a balance to be struck and Moon falls way short of it, where as Tiger Woods does not.
It doesn't whether or not you subjectively believe that WC3 is either inferior or superior to X game, what matters is the number and quality of the competitors.
A better comparison would be that it's easier to become the best box lacrosse player than the best golfer or soccer player...due to the number of competitors.
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On February 14 2012 04:15 dsousa wrote:
Check out the top players on the right hand side of this page ---->
Even in Korea..... MMA, DRG and Leenock were not BW pro's. A year ago the top 5 had more BW representation (with people like Rainbow, Tester and Fruitdealer being much more relevant
BW influence on SC2 in waning, as is evident by the up and coming crop of players.
The elephant in the room is that there are 10 million 12-15 year old kids, who will soon be entering their prime while having grown up playing SC2. That's what current pro's need to worry about, not people playing another game.
Wait. I'm pretty sure that MMA was on SKT (remember a interview where Oov said that he was sad that MMA switched to SC2) , according to Liquidpedia DRG was on CJ, MvP was on Woongjin and Nestea was on KT. The only one I couldn't find any BW info on was Leenock.
I don't really support any side, but right is right.
As for my own opinion. I think that if all the BW players switched at the time when this article was writting, most of them would've been the top of SC2 along with those who were already playing the game and the best of the best at BW would've settled comfortably in top10 of SC2. I also don't think there is enough room (in SC2) for a player like Flash to dominate a player like MvP as hard as he would've done in BW.
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On February 14 2012 04:45 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:11 Seraphone wrote:
Then either you are wrong with that, or your logic is wrong, because your logic says Messi is the best.
Nope, wrong again I'm afraid.
Football might be the most popular sports but Golf is also extremely popular and difficult and Messi is not the greatest footballer of all time, he's just the current best, where as Tiger Woods is the greatest of all time. Which puts him ahead of Messi.
Tiger being the best golfer ever is debatable.
Jack is like Boxer/Nada and Tiger is like Flash. There's a few nostalgics who still maintain Boxer/Nada are the greatest but objectively Flash/Tiger are the more successful and better players.
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On February 14 2012 04:15 dsousa wrote:
Check out the top players on the right hand side of this page ---->
Even in Korea..... MMA, DRG and Leenock were not BW pro's. A year ago the top 5 had more BW representation (with people like Rainbow, Tester and Fruitdealer being much more relevant
BW influence on SC2 in waning, as is evident by the up and coming crop of players.
The elephant in the room is that there are 10 million 12-15 year old kids, who will soon be entering their prime while having grown up playing SC2. That's what current pro's need to worry about, not people playing another game.
How is that an elephant in the room, it works like that in every sport and it was the same in BW.
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On February 14 2012 04:46 Taiki wrote:
As for my own opinion. I think that if all the BW players switched at the time when this article was writing, most of them would've been the top of SC2 along with those who were already playing the game and the best of the best at BW would've settled comfortably in top10 of SC2.
I think this is still stands. If all the A-teamer would switch after the current proleague/OSL, I would not be surprised to see the top 25 in code S / code A within 3 month. They have the infrastructures, money, coaches, time and most importantly the skill. I believe SC2 can be learn relatively fast.
On February 14 2012 04:46 Taiki wrote:
I also don't think there is enough room (in SC2) for a player like Flash to dominate a player like MvP as hard as he would've done in BW.
Sadly this is true.
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On February 14 2012 04:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:11 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 04:08 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 04:06 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 04:02 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 03:45 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:44 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 03:15 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:08 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 TheDougler wrote:
[quote]
Edit: Also, I don't know about WC3 being less competitive. It was the first truly globally competitive e-sport. An argument could be made that it was "easier to learn" but as SCBW was only truly competitive in Korea, while WC3 had top players from around the world (Grubby, Sky, and Moon being the pinnacle of the three main regions), I've got to give it to WC3 for being more competitive as it had a larger competitive player base to draw from. Quoting the part I edited in after a half hour. The more I think about that actually the more true I believe it is that WC3 was the more competitive game. Yeah Korea has a HUGE population of SCBW players, and a few competitive international players as well of course... But WC3 has all that, more europeans and MOTHERFUGGIN CHINA. So I mean... that's a SERIOUS note in the talk of "best RTS player". But still, I agree that it's an awful lot like asking "who is the best player at sports". Most will realize it's a stupid question, others (such as myself) will vehemently claim Wayne Gretzky, or Mohamed Ali, or Michael Jordan because we fucking love Wayne Gretzky or "those other guys". It's fanboyism and it's awesome but it often gets taken to extremes, which has happened a lot in this thread. Even if CLEARLY the Great One is the best. Your point is wrong because while Wc3 was more international there was far more people in Korea alone making a living (i.e playing professionally not needing to work/study/sponge off parents) playing BW in Korea than in the entire Wc3 scene.
It doesn't matter which country something happened in so long as it is on a greater scale.Also the sole fact Wc3 was international is testament to how much easier it was to be good. You literally had zero chance of every being at all competitive in BW without living in a Korean pro house. You could easily play from home and grind Battle.net and be good at Wc3. Why do you think you know more than Sase and Naniwa who have both stated that it is much harder to be a top player in Sc2 than Wc3 nevermind BW. Lionel Messi is the best active football player (by professional voting, the generally accepted decisionmaking for that term in football; 3times in a row). Football is the biggest sport (greater scale than any other sport; more active players, professionals, fans, viewers). By your logic Lionel Messi is the one true and undisputed best active sportsman in the world. I rest my case, your logic has beaten me. Messi is the best active sportsman in the world so no problem. Ok... I just hope he is never gonna switch to basketball. I heard you gotta be really tall for that sport. (not even want to think about him playing chess or something) But by your logic... no problem I take that back actually, Tiger Woods is the best. then either you are wrong with that, or your logic is wrong, because your logic says Messi is the best. Nope, wrong again I'm afraid. Football might be the most popular sports but Golf is also extremely popular and difficult and Messi is not the greatest footballer of all time, he's just the current best, where as Tiger Woods is the greatest of all time. Which puts him ahead of Messi. Moon is the greatest of all time (only just over Grubby) in a far inferior game which is much easier to be the best in. Where as he's up against the absolute undisputed greatest of all time in a superior game in Flash. There is a balance to be struck and Moon falls way short of it, where as Tiger Woods does not. From wikipedia At the turn of the 21st century, the game was played by over 250 million players in over 200 countries, making it the world's most popular sport. - football has the greater scale --> Messi is the best by your logic. Also I wrote active sportsman. Not in the last post, but if you have something called memory, I'm sure you will remember it.
No sorry your assuming the difference between those sports is smaller than it is.
Brood War and SC2, like those physical sports share some commonalities in terms of skill set, but aren't identical.
I'd argue the skills involved far more similar than the two sports you cite (which is actually quite easy to objectively evaluate).
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On February 14 2012 04:15 dsousa wrote:
Check out the top players on the right hand side of this page ---->
Even in Korea..... MMA, DRG and Leenock were not BW pro's. A year ago the top 5 had more BW representation (with people like Rainbow, Tester and Fruitdealer being much more relevant
BW influence on SC2 in waning, as is evident by the up and coming crop of players.
The elephant in the room is that there are 10 million 12-15 year old kids, who will soon be entering their prime while having grown up playing SC2. That's what current pro's need to worry about, not people playing another game.
I know it's your mission on this forum to try and disparage BW and it's players but at least attempt to do so without posting blatantly false information. How can you even claim that BW influence is waning when BW is still the most popular game in Korea and there is still a vast number of progamers that could potentially switch from that game and be better than the current best.
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On February 14 2012 04:02 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:45 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:44 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 03:15 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:08 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 01:29 Djabanete wrote:On February 14 2012 01:27 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 01:17 Seraphone wrote:On February 13 2012 23:03 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Moon>Flash in WC3 (from what they have achieved yet)
Moon>Flash in SC2 (from what they have achieved yet)
Flash>Moon in BW (from what they have achieved yet)
2-1 for Moon in terms of in how many categories they have competed on high level. (Flash is just an example... read Jaedong/Bisu/anyone who has played BW only until now if you want to)
Other objective indicators?!
Prize money? I think Moon is the one who won the most money with gaming yet, but don't know. Couldn't google the exact stats, but I think Artosis mentioned it somewhere in the OpenGSL seasons.
Market value? He had best contract up to now of all esport gamers with 500.000$ for 3years at WeMadeFox.
Not saying he is the best (I don't think anyone can be the best in a such a huge genre... that's like saying Albert Einstein was the best scientist ever...), but a lot of objective indicators that I know of all point towards him.
Of course if you argue NaDa or Boxer or even Grubby, it will become a lot more tricky... This is a truly ridiculous post. Just unbelievably absurd. you care to say why, or is it just a rediculous post? Like green is just the same as blue. I'd tend to think the best RTS player is Flash, but maybe I just don't understand how good Moon was at WC3. I'd also tend to think BW is a better RTS than WC3, but maybe I just don't understand how good WC3 is. Basically, it's a meaningless comparison. But if I gave each of them one year to master an RTS and then play a Bo7, I'd bet on Flash to win every single match (including SC2) except WC3. (Wow, I looked at Moon's wiki page and it seems like he's won a lot. That is cool!) Edit: Also, I don't know about WC3 being less competitive. It was the first truly globally competitive e-sport. An argument could be made that it was "easier to learn" but as SCBW was only truly competitive in Korea, while WC3 had top players from around the world (Grubby, Sky, and Moon being the pinnacle of the three main regions), I've got to give it to WC3 for being more competitive as it had a larger competitive player base to draw from. Quoting the part I edited in after a half hour. The more I think about that actually the more true I believe it is that WC3 was the more competitive game. Yeah Korea has a HUGE population of SCBW players, and a few competitive international players as well of course... But WC3 has all that, more europeans and MOTHERFUGGIN CHINA. So I mean... that's a SERIOUS note in the talk of "best RTS player". But still, I agree that it's an awful lot like asking "who is the best player at sports". Most will realize it's a stupid question, others (such as myself) will vehemently claim Wayne Gretzky, or Mohamed Ali, or Michael Jordan because we fucking love Wayne Gretzky or "those other guys". It's fanboyism and it's awesome but it often gets taken to extremes, which has happened a lot in this thread. Even if CLEARLY the Great One is the best. Your point is wrong because while Wc3 was more international there was far more people in Korea alone making a living (i.e playing professionally not needing to work/study/sponge off parents) playing BW in Korea than in the entire Wc3 scene.
It doesn't matter which country something happened in so long as it is on a greater scale.Also the sole fact Wc3 was international is testament to how much easier it was to be good. You literally had zero chance of every being at all competitive in BW without living in a Korean pro house. You could easily play from home and grind Battle.net and be good at Wc3. Why do you think you know more than Sase and Naniwa who have both stated that it is much harder to be a top player in Sc2 than Wc3 nevermind BW. Lionel Messi is the best active football player (by professional voting, the generally accepted decisionmaking for that term in football; 3times in a row). Football is the biggest sport (greater scale than any other sport; more active players, professionals, fans, viewers). By your logic Lionel Messi is the one true and undisputed best active sportsman in the world. I rest my case, your logic has beaten me. Messi is the best active sportsman in the world so no problem. Ok... I just hope he is never gonna switch to basketball. I heard you gotta be really tall for that sport.(not even want to think about him playing chess or something) But by your logic... no problem
Muggsy Bogues, Earl Boykins, and Spud Webb would say otherwise 
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On February 14 2012 04:02 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:45 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:44 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 03:15 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 03:08 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 TheDougler wrote:On February 14 2012 01:29 Djabanete wrote:On February 14 2012 01:27 Big J wrote:On February 14 2012 01:17 Seraphone wrote:On February 13 2012 23:03 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Moon>Flash in WC3 (from what they have achieved yet)
Moon>Flash in SC2 (from what they have achieved yet)
Flash>Moon in BW (from what they have achieved yet)
2-1 for Moon in terms of in how many categories they have competed on high level. (Flash is just an example... read Jaedong/Bisu/anyone who has played BW only until now if you want to)
Other objective indicators?!
Prize money? I think Moon is the one who won the most money with gaming yet, but don't know. Couldn't google the exact stats, but I think Artosis mentioned it somewhere in the OpenGSL seasons.
Market value? He had best contract up to now of all esport gamers with 500.000$ for 3years at WeMadeFox.
Not saying he is the best (I don't think anyone can be the best in a such a huge genre... that's like saying Albert Einstein was the best scientist ever...), but a lot of objective indicators that I know of all point towards him.
Of course if you argue NaDa or Boxer or even Grubby, it will become a lot more tricky... This is a truly ridiculous post. Just unbelievably absurd. you care to say why, or is it just a rediculous post? Like green is just the same as blue. I'd tend to think the best RTS player is Flash, but maybe I just don't understand how good Moon was at WC3. I'd also tend to think BW is a better RTS than WC3, but maybe I just don't understand how good WC3 is. Basically, it's a meaningless comparison. But if I gave each of them one year to master an RTS and then play a Bo7, I'd bet on Flash to win every single match (including SC2) except WC3. (Wow, I looked at Moon's wiki page and it seems like he's won a lot. That is cool!) Edit: Also, I don't know about WC3 being less competitive. It was the first truly globally competitive e-sport. An argument could be made that it was "easier to learn" but as SCBW was only truly competitive in Korea, while WC3 had top players from around the world (Grubby, Sky, and Moon being the pinnacle of the three main regions), I've got to give it to WC3 for being more competitive as it had a larger competitive player base to draw from. Quoting the part I edited in after a half hour. The more I think about that actually the more true I believe it is that WC3 was the more competitive game. Yeah Korea has a HUGE population of SCBW players, and a few competitive international players as well of course... But WC3 has all that, more europeans and MOTHERFUGGIN CHINA. So I mean... that's a SERIOUS note in the talk of "best RTS player". But still, I agree that it's an awful lot like asking "who is the best player at sports". Most will realize it's a stupid question, others (such as myself) will vehemently claim Wayne Gretzky, or Mohamed Ali, or Michael Jordan because we fucking love Wayne Gretzky or "those other guys". It's fanboyism and it's awesome but it often gets taken to extremes, which has happened a lot in this thread. Even if CLEARLY the Great One is the best. Your point is wrong because while Wc3 was more international there was far more people in Korea alone making a living (i.e playing professionally not needing to work/study/sponge off parents) playing BW in Korea than in the entire Wc3 scene.
It doesn't matter which country something happened in so long as it is on a greater scale.Also the sole fact Wc3 was international is testament to how much easier it was to be good. You literally had zero chance of every being at all competitive in BW without living in a Korean pro house. You could easily play from home and grind Battle.net and be good at Wc3. Why do you think you know more than Sase and Naniwa who have both stated that it is much harder to be a top player in Sc2 than Wc3 nevermind BW. Lionel Messi is the best active football player (by professional voting, the generally accepted decisionmaking for that term in football; 3times in a row). Football is the biggest sport (greater scale than any other sport; more active players, professionals, fans, viewers). By your logic Lionel Messi is the one true and undisputed best active sportsman in the world. I rest my case, your logic has beaten me. Messi is the best active sportsman in the world so no problem. Ok... I just hope he is never gonna switch to basketball. I heard you gotta be really tall for that sport. (not even want to think about him playing chess or something) But by your logic... no problem
This is wrong as well. There have been extremely short basketball players who make up for it with sheer athleticism, speed, agility, or other various skills.
As I said the skill sets are different, but they do translate and this is why there are so many multisport stars on college teams in the United States. Think of Bo Jackson for instance- an undeniable star in both of the two ridiculously different sports he played.
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EPT
