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United States4796 Posts
On May 13 2011 20:37 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:
This is really insulting to all the victors of tournaments for SC2...
Its not like they have a game changing patch every month or so...
since the different game theory has already been stated, id like to throw it out there that i had a 90% win at golems 9.0
but only 30% on sc2
Slightly insulting, yeah, but intrigue has a point. It makes sense.
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On May 13 2011 20:37 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:
This is really insulting to all the victors of tournaments for SC2...
Its not like they have a game changing patch every month or so...
since the different game theory has already been stated, id like to throw it out there that i had a 90% win at golems 9.0
but only 30% on sc2
Do you honestly believe that your win percentage in Golem says anything about the (dis)similarities between BW and SC2? How is it even possible to follow GSL and not notice that subpar ex-BW pros are dominating?
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On May 13 2011 20:54 LucienL wrote:
the OP is rife with this bullshit idea that you can have talent at SC2, or any videogame
everyone starts off at the same level, and everyone can get the same benefits from practice. There is no talent.
Then why don't some players get the same benefits from practice as others do? Perhaps because some people have a better ability to learn from practice? Let's come up with a name for this ability... "talent" perhaps?
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On May 13 2011 20:54 LucienL wrote:
the OP is rife with this bullshit idea that you can have talent at SC2, or any videogame
everyone starts off at the same level, and everyone can get the same benefits from practice. There is no talent.
your romantic idea that some players are "just better" and somehow should be winning is so wrong it's not even funny
I don't know, buddy. I'm not quite buying that intrigue's ideas are bullshit, especially when I compare them to the ideas you've offered to replace them with. I mean, truly and sincerely, do you actually think that a) everyone starts off at the same level of skill for SC2 and that b) everyone can achieve the same level of skill from practice? You don't find that to be a little bit too, I dunno—absurdly simplistic?
I think it's pretty clear that certain people have aptitudes for certain activities. I mean you can call it talent or your can call it predisposition or you can call it whatever, but if you're trying to tell me that the only difference between, say, Michael Phelps and the rest of the swimmers at the 2008 Olympics was that Phelps put in more hours in the practice pool, then it sounds to me like you're talking like a crazy person would.
And this is all not to mention one of intrigue's main points is that players like Flash and JD practice their asses off compared to other BW and SC2 pros. So by your (far too reductive I think) only-practice-matters theory they would dominate.
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On May 13 2011 18:43 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 18:40 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 13 2011 18:37 setzer wrote:On May 13 2011 18:25 Vorlik wrote:On May 13 2011 16:58 Slakter wrote:On May 13 2011 16:50 Ruscour wrote:
Brood War is bound to fall. It has a large, loyal fanbase, but that fanbase is growing far slower than SC2's fanbase, and this will continue to deteriorate, because the game looks like balls. And that's a factor.
The transition will be slow, but it IS a transition. Brood War will die eventually. And Blizzard wants it to. How can this be true in any way? At least in South Korea this just simply IS NOT true. Brood war is far from dying, players are still playing at a higher level than SC2 will see in many years, the game is constantly changing (Through pros working out new builds, not patches) and the competition is as hard as it has ever been. I cant see how anyone can think that Brood war is dying. Sorry to break it to you but it doesn't matter how much competition, new builds, level of play,etc there is. It boils down to how many people actually care, and I guarantee you the broodwar audience is not growing, it's only declining. No 15 year old is going to start up their first rts experience with broodwar, but with sc2. It's been over a decade, it's dying, that's all there is to it. You have absolutely no idea what BW is like in Korea, yet you claim things with absolutely certainty? This has been said before: Korea cares very little for SC2. even 3 year olds still watch BW in Korea,no its not going anywhere in Korea. Oh and even Blizzard can't kill BW,they tired and failed. They did not attempt to and they could have easily forced iccup servers to shut down, which would have killed BW. It's understandable why someone who does not understand IP laws and why companies initiate these kind of law suits would believe that though
after 10 years of not doing anything, Blizzard shows up saying they finally care about IP laws...after 10 years.
if you still don't think Blizzard was trying to kill BW after that, what a shame.
actually you know what? i'll be generous and give you 5 years, rather than 10
let's assume for 5 years, blizzard didn't kill BW b/c they thought it was free advertising. that's still another 5 years they didn't do shit.
you seem to suggest your legitimacy in this area based on your understanding of IP laws but if you can't even look beyond the facts in the first place, knowledge of IP laws isn't going to give you anything but knowledge of IP laws.
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This was a terrible, pointless article. What is the message here? current sc2 players are bad and BW players are cooler? Who gives 2 shits how good flash would be if he switched, hes not switching and hes happy earning pathetic money despite being by far the best in BW. MC has made close to flash's salary this year in prize money ALONE, and the game is still very young, AND mc isn't even as dominant as Flash is.
Also the writing was terrible. Far too much hyperbole. 200k is not a 'disgusting salary.' The fact that is considered to even be an anomaly in esports is an indication of how korean BW will forever stagnate. Baseball players make literally hundreds of times that without blinking an eye.
terrible, terrible, terrible.
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On May 13 2011 21:37 m3rciless wrote:
This was a terrible, pointless article. What is the message here? current sc2 players are bad and BW players are cooler? Who gives 2 shits how good flash would be if he switched, hes not switching and hes happy earning pathetic money despite being by far the best in BW. MC has made close to flash's salary this year in prize money ALONE, and the game is still very young, AND mc isn't even as dominant as Flash is.
Also the writing was terrible. Far too much hyperbole. 200k is not a 'disgusting salary.' The fact that is considered to even be an anomaly in esports is an indication of how korean BW will forever stagnate. Baseball players make literally hundreds of times that without blinking an eye.
terrible, terrible, terrible.
And your reading comprehension is terrible. 200k does not include MSL, OSL winnings.
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On May 13 2011 21:40 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 21:37 m3rciless wrote:
This was a terrible, pointless article. What is the message here? current sc2 players are bad and BW players are cooler? Who gives 2 shits how good flash would be if he switched, hes not switching and hes happy earning pathetic money despite being by far the best in BW. MC has made close to flash's salary this year in prize money ALONE, and the game is still very young, AND mc isn't even as dominant as Flash is.
Also the writing was terrible. Far too much hyperbole. 200k is not a 'disgusting salary.' The fact that is considered to even be an anomaly in esports is an indication of how korean BW will forever stagnate. Baseball players make literally hundreds of times that without blinking an eye.
terrible, terrible, terrible. And your reading comprehension is terrible. 200k does not include MSL, OSL winnings.
Or WCG, Proleague-bonuses, etc. Flash salary is believed to be closer to $250 000
Flash himself said that his total earinings can go up to 400000000 won which is approximately $375k
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As a person who watches all of GSL, and some of the foreigner tournaments, I completely agree with the sentiment of this article.
Considering I'm a huge Jaedong fan, and basicly only watches his BW games, I can fully agree that the level of play we've seen in sc2 is completely terrible compared to the best of the best in BW.
Nothing we've seen in Sc2 so far comes even remotely close to his game vs sea with his constant drops, tech switches and small scale army micro. Not to mention his new usage of queens.
Just check some resent up/down matches, and you'll see players missing their building placement, terrible micro errors and awful decision making (tester vs san comes to my mind). Previous seasons with san blocking his own nexus with a pylon, bitbybits "amazing" scv all-ins or rains truely amazing loss vs inca in this seasons group stage. The play is at times atrocious.
On the other hand, I can fully see why most sc2-only followers gets upset by this article, and it's because of the way you so "eloquently" described it.
You could've expanded about the potential playerpool we can end up with and their amazing multitask. Make us excited with the future of potential insane micro and multiple angle engagements, knowing that 400 eapm players who doesn't have to babysit their base the entire game, can fully focus on their army position and movement.
Instead what we're reading is how everything we've seen now is terrible, how you must be stupid to like it, and it's actually a waste of time to look up this weekends TSL, because it's all terrible players.
The point of this FE is a really good one, but they way you arrived at it is a clear cut flaming of the current scene and needlessly BW elitism forced into every word.
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On May 13 2011 21:48 gn0m wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 21:40 ShadeR wrote:On May 13 2011 21:37 m3rciless wrote:
This was a terrible, pointless article. What is the message here? current sc2 players are bad and BW players are cooler? Who gives 2 shits how good flash would be if he switched, hes not switching and hes happy earning pathetic money despite being by far the best in BW. MC has made close to flash's salary this year in prize money ALONE, and the game is still very young, AND mc isn't even as dominant as Flash is.
Also the writing was terrible. Far too much hyperbole. 200k is not a 'disgusting salary.' The fact that is considered to even be an anomaly in esports is an indication of how korean BW will forever stagnate. Baseball players make literally hundreds of times that without blinking an eye.
terrible, terrible, terrible. And your reading comprehension is terrible. 200k does not include MSL, OSL winnings. Or WCG, Proleague-bonuses, etc. Flash salary is also believed to be closer to $250 000
In addition to that there's no guarantee that gsl will be forever. It has been a good year and I see no reason for it to die right now but these things can happen quickly and I'm sure those at the top in BW wouldn't want to risk the possibility of not doing well in sc2 but also the possibility that the sc2 scene might implode within 1-2 years.
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a second chance for an income is always good for them, regardless if dignity is involved or not.
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United Kingdom1688 Posts
On May 13 2011 21:54 ZeaL. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 21:48 gn0m wrote:On May 13 2011 21:40 ShadeR wrote:On May 13 2011 21:37 m3rciless wrote:
This was a terrible, pointless article. What is the message here? current sc2 players are bad and BW players are cooler? Who gives 2 shits how good flash would be if he switched, hes not switching and hes happy earning pathetic money despite being by far the best in BW. MC has made close to flash's salary this year in prize money ALONE, and the game is still very young, AND mc isn't even as dominant as Flash is.
Also the writing was terrible. Far too much hyperbole. 200k is not a 'disgusting salary.' The fact that is considered to even be an anomaly in esports is an indication of how korean BW will forever stagnate. Baseball players make literally hundreds of times that without blinking an eye.
terrible, terrible, terrible. And your reading comprehension is terrible. 200k does not include MSL, OSL winnings. Or WCG, Proleague-bonuses, etc. Flash salary is also believed to be closer to $250 000 In addition to that there's no guarantee that gsl will be forever. It has been a good year and I see no reason for it to die right now but these things can happen quickly and I'm sure those at the top in BW wouldn't want to risk the possibility of not doing well in sc2 but also the possibility that the sc2 scene might implode within 1-2 years.
These are my thoughts too. We still don't really know what the SC2 pro scene is yet- it could just be another bubble. It's not uncommon for a new game to have an intense spate of tournaments and prize money, whilst the novelty value and mass-appeal for casual gamers is still there. Even games like Company of Heroes (which has no strategic depth of any kind, but looks appealing), had their day. I would not argue that SC2 is on that low level, but it is still an unknown quantity.
SC2 is also, crucially, in direct competition with the mass-market of games, designed to take the biggest audience possible, as fast as possible! Other companies will be trying to take it down and reap it's benefits, mark my words. Throw in balance patches, multiple expansions, and you have a lot of instability and potential upsets. BW pros do not have to deal with that.
It's very interesting to see how people react to money etc. To draw a parallel- the majority of investors sell on bad news, and buy on good. This is because the want to make a gain as quickly as possible, regardless of what could happen tomorrow. The ones who do best in the long term chose their moves very carefully, and then stand by their investments indefinitely, knowing that they made the right choice with the information they had.
I think that for successful BW players, it's worth waiting to see what the long-term aspects of SC2 really are, before they can make a decision to change. I do however agree with the OP that we will see a fresh influx of mediocre BW players into SC2, who, fresh off heavy practice regimes and deeply challenging gameplay on all sides, will turn the scene on it's head.
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You're right, intrigue. This article won't make you popular.
It's what happens when you write up a well-informed article that, while for all of its cited sources, figures, and observations (which are probably correct), comes off as nothing more than inciteful little blurb that works up the bile of the community. How this can get featured is beyond my understanding.
Simply put, this is a troll thread.
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On May 13 2011 21:00 gn0m wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 20:37 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:
This is really insulting to all the victors of tournaments for SC2...
Its not like they have a game changing patch every month or so...
since the different game theory has already been stated, id like to throw it out there that i had a 90% win at golems 9.0
but only 30% on sc2 Do you honestly believe that your win percentage in Golem says anything about the (dis)similarities between BW and SC2? How is it even possible to follow GSL and not notice that subpar ex-BW pros are dominating?
using different game logic
bw and sc2 are different games
golem 9.0 is a different game within a different game
because i win in golems doesnt mean i will win in sc2
because MC loses 90% of his games in brood war doesnt mean he loses 90% in sc2
so i dont understand how he can call this competition a "FARCE"
thats like saying special olympics is a farce because usain bolt is not competing
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On May 13 2011 22:16 Volkspanzer wrote:
You're right, intrigue. This article won't make you popular.
It's what happens when you write up a well-informed article that, while for all of its cited sources, figures, and observations (which are probably correct), comes off as nothing more than inciteful little blurb that works up the bile of the community. How this can get featured is beyond my understanding.
Simply put, this is a troll thread.
No, it's not. It's just that, most of the people who are getting their jimmies rustled over this article, need to calm down. The article is just stating something that's pretty obvious to anyone; the level of competition isn't at it's pinnacle at the moment. Do you disagree with this? Do you think that we, in the sc2 community, already have our flash and jaedong (players who will always be better than all the newcomers)? I think not. I think there's better players out there, who are either occupied by a different game (BW or otherwise), or haven't been able to commit to the game yet, for whatever reason.
The article seems points out that we haven't seen the best that this game has to offer yet, because many of the players aren't working hard enough or are not as talented as people who haven't switched over yet. And anyone who has a problem with this is pretty silly. I hope that we haven't seen the best this game has to offer. If we have, I doubt this game will last 10 years. And I hope it does.
Though, saying that the competition is a farce seems to be specifically geared towards getting people angry. But, if we're a mature community, we can just see past silly statements like that, and actually discuss the meat of the article. Are we a mature community? I'd like to think so. The responses to this thread, however, seem contrary to me thinking so 
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hmmm... now after reading the comments and thinking about it for a while. featuring this post might not be the best idea... poor intrigue D=
oh btw i heard that out of the 4 "bonjwa candidates", stork is the laziest progamer to ever win an osl.
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On May 13 2011 22:27 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 21:00 gn0m wrote:On May 13 2011 20:37 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:
This is really insulting to all the victors of tournaments for SC2...
Its not like they have a game changing patch every month or so...
since the different game theory has already been stated, id like to throw it out there that i had a 90% win at golems 9.0
but only 30% on sc2 Do you honestly believe that your win percentage in Golem says anything about the (dis)similarities between BW and SC2? How is it even possible to follow GSL and not notice that subpar ex-BW pros are dominating? using different game logic bw and sc2 are different games golem 9.0 is a different game within a different game because i win in golems doesnt mean i will win in sc2 because MC loses 90% of his games in brood war doesnt mean he loses 90% in sc2 so i dont understand how he can call this competition a "FARCE" thats like saying special olympics is a farce because usain bolt is not competing
It blows my mind that you actually believe that comparing some UMS and SC2 is like comparing BW and SC2.
No, the fact that MC was a B-teamer means that he is likely to do well in SC2. This is what we have seen - ex-BW players are doing well in SC2 which means that the “different game”-argument is invalid.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On May 13 2011 21:51 kaztah wrote:
As a person who watches all of GSL, and some of the foreigner tournaments, I completely agree with the sentiment of this article.
Considering I'm a huge Jaedong fan, and basicly only watches his BW games, I can fully agree that the level of play we've seen in sc2 is completely terrible compared to the best of the best in BW.
Nothing we've seen in Sc2 so far comes even remotely close to his game vs sea with his constant drops, tech switches and small scale army micro. Not to mention his new usage of queens.
Just check some resent up/down matches, and you'll see players missing their building placement, terrible micro errors and awful decision making (tester vs san comes to my mind). Previous seasons with san blocking his own nexus with a pylon, bitbybits "amazing" scv all-ins or rains truely amazing loss vs inca in this seasons group stage. The play is at times atrocious.
On the other hand, I can fully see why most sc2-only followers gets upset by this article, and it's because of the way you so "eloquently" described it.
You could've expanded about the potential playerpool we can end up with and their amazing multitask. Make us excited with the future of potential insane micro and multiple angle engagements, knowing that 400 eapm players who doesn't have to babysit their base the entire game, can fully focus on their army position and movement.
Instead what we're reading is how everything we've seen now is terrible, how you must be stupid to like it, and it's actually a waste of time to look up this weekends TSL, because it's all terrible players.
The point of this FE is a really good one, but they way you arrived at it is a clear cut flaming of the current scene and needlessly BW elitism forced into every word.
I echo this. Although I think SOMEONE needed to write an article to shut down any kind of unreal "pride" in how good the SCII pros are. However we must all remember the skill level of BW evolved over the years. Just watching BW replays from 3 years ago will help anyone to realise that the skill-ceiling in BW took years to increase, so we should expect SCII to as well. SCII is even blessed with a headstart in that so many established BW strats can be transferred over to SCII.
On a positive note though, if BW salaries continue to drop in the future, I hope to see at least some more A-class if not S-class BW pros switch over. I wouldn't mind having people like  BaBy,  ZerO or  JangBi switch over.
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On May 13 2011 22:35 gn0m wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 22:27 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:On May 13 2011 21:00 gn0m wrote:On May 13 2011 20:37 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:
This is really insulting to all the victors of tournaments for SC2...
Its not like they have a game changing patch every month or so...
since the different game theory has already been stated, id like to throw it out there that i had a 90% win at golems 9.0
but only 30% on sc2 Do you honestly believe that your win percentage in Golem says anything about the (dis)similarities between BW and SC2? How is it even possible to follow GSL and not notice that subpar ex-BW pros are dominating? using different game logic bw and sc2 are different games golem 9.0 is a different game within a different game because i win in golems doesnt mean i will win in sc2 because MC loses 90% of his games in brood war doesnt mean he loses 90% in sc2 so i dont understand how he can call this competition a "FARCE" thats like saying special olympics is a farce because usain bolt is not competing It blows my mind that you actually believe that comparing some UMS and SC2 is like comparing BW and SC2. No, the fact that MC was a B-teamer means that he is likely to do well in SC2. This is what we have seen - ex-BW players are doing well in SC2 which means that the “different game”-argument is invalid.
Ok lets see
Minigun didnt even play RTS, now he is successful
broodwar player? nope oh snap who knew you could be successful without playing its TWELVE YEAR predecessor?
Oh look Warcraft 3, same company, same game right?
NO
last time i checked, there was no unit in brood war that had speed of speed lings, cloaking ability of a DT, and hit like a seige tank...
Oh yea blade master very good yes?
OH BUT look! it says 2 at the end of starcraft, must be close to the same!?~?
sc2 is enhanced rts that requires different skills than sc1; the logic does not apply
because when i play TVP, i go marine firebat medic with science vessals and wraiths
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On May 13 2011 22:31 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 22:16 Volkspanzer wrote:
You're right, intrigue. This article won't make you popular.
It's what happens when you write up a well-informed article that, while for all of its cited sources, figures, and observations (which are probably correct), comes off as nothing more than inciteful little blurb that works up the bile of the community. How this can get featured is beyond my understanding.
Simply put, this is a troll thread. No, it's not. It's just that, most of the people who are getting their jimmies rustled over this article, need to calm down. The article is just stating something that's pretty obvious to anyone; the level of competition isn't at it's pinnacle at the moment. Do you disagree with this? Do you think that we, in the sc2 community, already have our flash and jaedong (players who will always be better than all the newcomers)? I think not. I think there's better players out there, who are either occupied by a different game (BW or otherwise), or haven't been able to commit to the game yet, for whatever reason. The article seems points out that we haven't seen the best that this game has to offer yet, because many of the players aren't working hard enough or are not as talented as people who haven't switched over yet. And anyone who has a problem with this is pretty silly. I hope that we haven't seen the best this game has to offer. If we have, I doubt this game will last 10 years. And I hope it does. Though, saying that the competition is a farce seems to be specifically geared towards getting people angry. But, if we're a mature community, we can just see past silly statements like that, and actually discuss the meat of the article. Are we a mature community? I'd like to think so. The responses to this thread, however, seem contrary to me thinking so
its good to see that people can understand the original post so well  .
On May 13 2011 22:40 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 22:35 gn0m wrote:On May 13 2011 22:27 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:On May 13 2011 21:00 gn0m wrote:On May 13 2011 20:37 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:
This is really insulting to all the victors of tournaments for SC2...
Its not like they have a game changing patch every month or so...
since the different game theory has already been stated, id like to throw it out there that i had a 90% win at golems 9.0
but only 30% on sc2 Do you honestly believe that your win percentage in Golem says anything about the (dis)similarities between BW and SC2? How is it even possible to follow GSL and not notice that subpar ex-BW pros are dominating? using different game logic bw and sc2 are different games golem 9.0 is a different game within a different game because i win in golems doesnt mean i will win in sc2 because MC loses 90% of his games in brood war doesnt mean he loses 90% in sc2 so i dont understand how he can call this competition a "FARCE" thats like saying special olympics is a farce because usain bolt is not competing It blows my mind that you actually believe that comparing some UMS and SC2 is like comparing BW and SC2. No, the fact that MC was a B-teamer means that he is likely to do well in SC2. This is what we have seen - ex-BW players are doing well in SC2 which means that the “different game”-argument is invalid. Ok lets see Minigun didnt even play RTS, now he is successful broodwar player? nope oh snap who knew you could be successful without playing its TWELVE YEAR predecessor? Oh look Warcraft 3, same company, same game right? NO last time i checked, there was no unit in brood war that had speed of speed lings, cloaking ability of a DT, and hit like a seige tank... Oh yea blade master very good yes? OH BUT look! it says 2 at the end of starcraft, must be close to the same!?~? sc2 is enhanced rts that requires different skills than sc1; the logic does not apply because when i play TVP, i go marine firebat medic with science vessals and wraiths
how often do you win with MM firebat vessels and wraith I may ask,oh and reps please.
technically a vulture is faster than a speedling and spidermines hit like a siegetank,although they do not cloak like a DT.
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EPT
