On May 13 2011 09:11 naggerNZ wrote: This thread = SC2 players getting angry at the suggestion that the top players in their game aren't as good as the top players from a different game and BW players getting the opportunity to insult anyone who didn't follow BW.
I wish there was a system on TL to upvote posts and have posts be ordered by rating not just chronological order.
EDIT: By this I am saying that this is a good post.
On May 13 2011 09:12 xarthaz wrote: IMO u just eat lings fast and cast w and g very much but, look in sc2 with marines. they do very fast damage so u gotta micro to make it worth it because they die also.and u can say this worth it or not but its not good valuation so thats why mvp didnt win bw. ok and medics you can spam n barracks because of cheap but medivacs energy problem so must very percise stim cloning n read situation to use effectively. so get this - for micro, it needs positioning element and control. if not working fast, then enemy can adapt, advantage not worth it. so thats high damage -> pro microers, not this bw macro guys win.
This was a great read, can tell you put a lot of effort into it.
And i agree, skill level is low atm. Even when i watch pro gamers (not going to name names but im sure anyone who has watched replays critically will agree) they have some terrible mechanical errors and even build order errors. you see sloppy play. one example is a high level euro PvT, the P does a 3gate expand, and his warp in macro is so bad, he is missing them and having inactive money, when youre at 180 pop or something, its acceptable, but at 40pop when youre putting on pressure? thats just bad play. sad thing is he ended up winning it.
A certain liquid protoss member did a 3gate blink stalker rush in a PvT, and was floating 800 minerals or so before FINALLY expanding. he could prob have had the expo finished when he only just started it, his warp ins werent perfect either. Im not saying im better or anything, i have even worse mechanics etc etc, i just think that sc2 has such a high skill ceiling, and we are not even at the point where intense refinement is needed to win, keeping your money low and not making major micro errors and executing a BO are good enough to win you games at the top level, even tournaments.
On May 13 2011 09:02 manloveman wrote: I dont know who is worse. The bitter vets sperging bw>sc2 (including OP) or the sc2 noobs who is actually trying to argue against OP's logic.
The former group would not exist without the latter.
Do you have anger issues or something?
I fully admit that at times, the irritation I feel based on my opinions of other people's opinions will overwhelm me to respond to a post, but to do so as you have done, in such a short fashion much like a verbal expletive when someone kicks you in the balls seems heavily uncalled for. You've done this repeatedly in this thread too, and really, isn't it time to lay off the bottle? I know a few other ways to relieve stress other than snarky one-liners that make you sound like the poor kid wearing glasses with no friends and a whole lot of resentment.
-_-;; Re: the OP and the topic at hand, TL.net decided to publish an article that ended up creating more division within the community. If there was internal discussion about the article, suggesting that there was some dissent as to whether it was publishable, then this article should have been edited much more carefully and thoughtfully for tone. As it stands, it is too easily misrepresented no matter how many disclaimers you add. Ultimately, as a reader and without responding to content, the article feels like a lapse in the professionalism I have come to expect from TL.net as an organization- particular vis-a-vis how TSL is being run and managed.
On May 13 2011 09:11 naggerNZ wrote: This thread = SC2 players getting angry at the suggestion that the top players in their game aren't as good as the top players from a different game and BW players getting the opportunity to insult anyone who didn't follow BW.
I wish there was a system on TL to upvote posts and have posts be ordered by rating not just chronological order.
And have any additional posts become irrelevant and unread once there are about 20-30 posts? No thanks
On May 13 2011 08:30 xarthaz wrote: What a lot of people dont understand is the big skill in the game. SC2 takes totally different and DIFFICULT skills to get good at, which is why imo bw pros havent switched. And paradoxically it also shows the heroism, the mechanical ability of the SC2 top players that remained unappreciated in the BW scene due to it not contributing to game winning.
What? SC2 has very few skills that you need that you did not need in BW, i actually have trouble naming any off the top of my head.
On May 13 2011 08:34 gn0m wrote:
On May 13 2011 08:30 xarthaz wrote: What a lot of people dont understand is the big skill in the game. SC2 takes totally different and DIFFICULT skills to get good at, which is why imo bw pros havent switched. And paradoxically it also shows the heroism, the mechanical ability of the SC2 top players that remained unappreciated in the BW scene due to it not contributing to game winning.
What type of skill is there in SC2 that is absent in BW?
Top level stim cloning to preserve medivac energy, emp sniping, force field speed casting. all these require insane speed and macro that imo dont get rewarded in bw, because of that the gsl winners were not that good in bw, because their skill didnt get rewarded
They didn't get rewarded because they lacked skill and motivation. For example : MVP. A Woongjin Terran.
Oh please. Action only had decent defiler control in 1 game against flash and he still lost it. hardly remarkable. and while acouple of those guys do good stuff imo marinekings micro is what really makes it shine in sc2 because in sc1 you dont have this dps output to reward pro micro, what im trying to say is the damage is too low. remember, for reaction speed and micro skill to have a large relevance to outcome of battle, the whole battle needs to end relatively quickly which is possuble due to sc2 high dps units, but sc1 units low damage so fight too long and doesnt reward pro micro. this is why micro experts like mvp and nestea didnt get reward they deserved in sc1. sorry but thats how it works
No pro micro ?
And that is just straight up amazing skill. What do you think SC2 is going to be like once people work up to that level of control? Mechanics have only really just started to be hammered out, people are still getting used to warp timings (especially with the patches), larvae usage and injects, what to chrono when, and how to utilize addons. Not to mention people starting to abuse things like Feedback, EMP, using Graviton to pick up Immortals being 250mm'd, Zergling run-bys, Blue Flame Hellion drops, etc.
I'm just sick of seeing BW players saying SC2 will never live up to "their game". I'm sick of SC2 players saying BW is completely outdated and stupid. I think BW and SC2 are both amazing games with different mechanics, and both will continue to prosper for a while. There are skills in both, and yes, the BW players have had 10+ more years to develop theirs, while SC2 is still producing them at an amazing rate.
Hating one or the other is silly, just as silly as any other fanboy argument.
There will never be micro like that in SC2 because of unit bumping and the lack of positional (NOT SMART-CASTED) spells like mines. You can't 2-shot a FF with Stalkers, or go against fungal growth.
And when people start using Massive units to stomp FFs (as they were intended to do), microing Ghosts in TvZ with the express intention of EMPing Infestors, using super precise Blink micro to control one unit at a time, manually casting Charge to control the flow of battle, and I won't even begin to mention the Mothership, which in my book is the most underused (albeit very constricted in use) units in the game.
On May 13 2011 09:02 manloveman wrote: I dont know who is worse. The bitter vets sperging bw>sc2 (including OP) or the sc2 noobs who is actually trying to argue against OP's logic.
The former group would not exist without the latter.
Do you have anger issues or something?
I fully admit that at times, the irritation I feel based on my opinions of other people's opinions will overwhelm me to respond to a post, but to do so as you have done, in such a short fashion much like a verbal expletive when someone kicks you in the balls seems heavily uncalled for. You've done this repeatedly in this thread too, and really, isn't it time to lay off the bottle? I know a few other ways to relieve stress other than snarky one-liners that make you sound like the poor kid wearing glasses with no friends and a whole lot of resentment.
-_-;; Re: the OP and the topic at hand, TL.net decided to publish an article that ended up creating more division within the community. If there was internal discussion about the article, suggesting that there was some dissent as to whether it was publishable, then this article should have been edited much more carefully and thoughtfully for tone. As it stands, it is too easily misrepresented no matter how many disclaimers you add. Ultimately, as a reader and without responding to content, the article feels like a lapse in the professionalism I have come to expect from TL.net as an organization- particular vis-a-vis how TSL is being run and managed.
How is what I said to you (the post you quoted) overly angry or anything? I don't understand.
I admit I made some angry posts earlier, pardon my lack of self-control in the sense that I post on a forum where posters with less than a year tenure come into a thread listing statistical facts and start spouting bullshit opinions that have no facts behind them and effectively disrespect the game that this site was built on. If that is what it is to be wrong then I don't want to be right.
On May 13 2011 09:04 ffreakk wrote: @ dudes who complains why this article is the "News"
It ISNT, ffs.. It is an editorial, so do yourself a favor and find out what that means before complaining..
Also, imo you are welcome to have an opinion, but atrocious manners and being completely uncivil is the surest way to make sure that your opinion will NEVER get across.. If one guy come up to me and say "fuck your mother, father! e = mc^2", i will be VERY unlikely to respond with "you're right"..
On the article itself, it was a great read, i enjoyed it . If HotS or LotV were to improve the gameplay and spectator experience, i will be sure to follow SC2 closely .. For the moment i ll be awaiting the CJ slaughter-fest thats incoming from Bisu next week (peace, CJ people :p).
I Doubt that Hots or Lotv will save SC2 if the players aren't going to be motivated to play top level. But yeah, one can hope.
and lol T1 wont be raping CJ anytime soon. T1 fan myself but I can't see it coming, just can't.
Article just implicitly assumes an arbitrary person X can't possibly become as good as BW_Superstar1 or BW_Superstar2, no heavens no; not while playing SC2 for sure. Yes I see the elephant, you hid it good.
On May 13 2011 09:02 manloveman wrote: I dont know who is worse. The bitter vets sperging bw>sc2 (including OP) or the sc2 noobs who is actually trying to argue against OP's logic.
While OP is very solid in his arguments, there is one thing he is dead wrong about. The sc2 scene is not a farce. While its top korean players where nobody in bw, and the game itself is a lot less mechanical, dare I say more casual, they still represent the best there is in the current sc2 scene. They are still competing and I'm still entertained and following.
If you wonna watch super skilled gameplay that the sc2 scene is still working its towards, then fine with me. Just dont belittle the ones that just wonna see the current best of the game they play and enjoy.
I agree with you that they do represent the best of the current sc2 scene. But that's irrelevant to whether they are a farce or not.
The farce aspect comes because there may be better players out there who, for whatever reasons, refuse to play sc2. This makes sc2 look like a minor league. (whether it's true or not doesn't matter, since that's the public perception in korea, and perception is what drives advertising sales). So in the mind of BW fans, two questions arise: 1.) why would i want to watch minor league players? and 2.) why are they getting paid so much money?
I raised this earlier in the thread but i'm going to bring it up again. SC2 feels like Guitar Hero, while BW feels like real guitar played by geniuses. This may or may not be true. But when a product imitates an already popular product, the burden of proof lies on the newcomer to show beyond all doubt not only that they are the superior product, but they can attract buyers as well. (See: Motorola Xoom vs. Ipad 2. Xoom may have superior stats but no one buys it.)
You really need to fill me in on why you made the advertising sales point.
On May 13 2011 09:11 naggerNZ wrote: This thread = SC2 players getting angry at the suggestion that the top players in their game aren't as good as the top players from a different game and BW players getting the opportunity to insult anyone who didn't follow BW.
I wish there was a system on TL to upvote posts and have posts be ordered by rating not just chronological order.
And have any additional posts become irrelevant and unread once there are about 20-30 posts? No thanks
I think it would be a nice option regardless (: Not necessarily the only way. That's why I said "not just chronologically" [sic].
On May 13 2011 09:17 Synwave wrote: You forget s3raph it supposedly was discussed fully in house...
Supposedly doesn't mean that the decision is perfect. I fully contemplate the consequences of killing someone (as an extreme example), and the decision can still be wrong, inadequate, inefficient, or simply bad.
I'm simply stating that if there was as much internal discussion as was suggested (and as we are believed to understand giving TL.net's standards), then I would have expected much higher editing standards regarding the tone, which a lot of people have talked about. I'm not responding to content. I'm responding to an inflammatory article published on a site I like to visit and, supposedly, actually takes into account forumite opinions when appropriate.
Well written or not, well researched or not, the article is basically taking a piss in sc2 cheerios.
Posting this as a featured article is in poor taste and every sc2 fan who is upset by it has every right to be. No one should be happy being told that their favorite players are crap and their wins are meaningless.
On May 13 2011 09:17 Synwave wrote: You forget s3raph it supposedly was discussed fully in house...
Supposedly doesn't mean that the decision is perfect. I fully contemplate the consequences of killing someone (as an extreme example), and the decision can still be wrong, inadequate, inefficient, or simply bad.
I'm simply stating that if there was as much internal discussion as was suggested (and as we are believed to understand giving TL.net's standards), then I would have expected much higher editing standards regarding the tone, which a lot of people have talked about. I'm not responding to content. I'm responding to an inflammatory article published on a site I like to visit and, supposedly, actually takes into account forumite opinions when appropriate.
That's all.
I agree with you and if I run across another article like this despite lurking about this site for years and years I wont bother reading the articles anymore.
On May 13 2011 07:45 Omoplata wrote: [quote] Is being passive-aggressive also the adult way?
You can't be offended by opinions? You aren't offended by people that think black people are inferior? Or that women are inferior? Or any one of a multitude of things that are, and should be offensive to rational-minded people? If someone is offended by something they aren't an adult? Really?
Calling SC2 competition a farce is condescending, and that should be offensive to anyone that competes in SC2. MC? Hahaha, Broodwar scrub. What a farce. Nestea? Broodwar scrub. Total farce. Fruitdealer? Yet another scrub. Yet another farce.
have you ever read a sports article in your entire life? and ffs drop the fucking comparison to racism and sexism. sports writers always call out athletes for being scrubs. thats why we read
I have never in my life read a sports article on the front page of a sport's biggest website arguing that the sport in question was a farce.
Have you ever seen a Sports Illustrated with a cover story of "The Top 20 Reasons Football is For Retards?"
OP may make a good argument, but it's needless inflammatory and condescending.
hello fellow american. have you ever read an article about american soccer or listened to jim rome talk about soccer obviously not
On the FIFA site? Teamliquid isn't some guy, or even a big e-sports site. It's the BW/SC2 website.
Granted, a large part of the reason Team Liquid is so big is because pro gamers post here, and we just ran a front-page article calling them a bunch of lazy pussies whose games are only good for comedy, so I hope they have thick skins.
We are a news site, we are not blizzard. The top news sites have covered such topics, of course.
I will stop complaining if you link me to an official news post in the last ten years on this site saying Brood War sucks, or even sucked at that particular time compared to some point in the past. Bonus points if it insults every single player and calls the scene a farce or some similar language.
wtf. every post you've made is based around a huge exaggeration or a bad analogy. this article didnt say sc2 sucks...
The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce.
In big, bold letters too!
Why is the SC2 scene a farce?
It seems to be a matter of effort - not only is (Z)Jaedong talented, but he puts in the work. Former BW pros in SC2 have the mechanics and game sense that they gained through practice, and this is their advantage. But unless they can keep it up in the less structured environment of SC2 houses, they will certainly fall behind when high-level BW pros bring over their work ethic and determination.
Because all the players are lazy assholes who don't even care about the game, of course
No, it's because the players are not trying that hard because the game does not demand it from them. Take yourself for example - can't even make 50% winrate at D level on ICCup, is already Platinum in SC2. And you have played a LOT of BW games. Seems like there is some value to this argument, if a D level noob in BW can be "Platinum" in SC2. No wonder you are defending your cakewalk.
I just went on ICCUP and won a game for the sole purpose of finding a Brood War fan and hurting him just a little. I feel better now
I never said SC2 was better than BW. In fact, I explicitly said SC2 was worse (right now)!
On May 13 2011 07:43 Ribbon wrote: his is the point where we are now, where a unusually good SC2 game and a mediocre-to-bad BW game look pretty similar.
See? And I've repeatedly in this thread said I agreed with the basic point of the OP. My problem is that he's a dick, much like Brood War fans in general lately. It's not that we like a game you don't. No no no, we're retards for liking a game you don't. That's my problem with BW: The fans. And I'd just stay out of the Brood War section, except you guys keep posting in the SC2 section and the front page of the goddamn site talking about how Brood War players are just inherently better people.
Am I proud of being platinum? No. Why would I be? The Blizzard ladder is composed of hundred of thousands of random fans. The ICCUP ladder is all hardcore fanboys who think they're good (and just because a D player like me sucks a lot more doesn't mean that a C player isn't laughably awful). I've been pretty clear about it. I suck at both games, just like 99.99999% of people on this site. None of us are "qualified" to talk, and don't pretend you are if you're not an A on ICCUP.
I'm actually interested in the usage stats of Team Liquid now.
Is there a way to look how many of the members are here for BW only or SC2 only or both? Is there a way to see total volume of the SC2 and the BW subforums and activity stats?
What the OP is missing is the fact this game is barely a year old. I guess SC BW was so dominating back in 2002. Oh yeah...
What I see is this... OP is mad because his view of "lesser" talent is running things right now in a sport he does not want to follow.
That is not the case. These BW pros saw an opportunity to make it big and took it. The only thing you can compare BW/WC3 to SC2 is skill set. In Both games you need quick reaction times, quick decision making, and Micro/Macro.
And lastly... to everyone saying SC2 is Paper, Rock, Scissors... L O L
Scouting in SC2 is MORE IMPORTANT than SC1. Because there are more than just one counter to opening builds unlike BW. In BW, there's barely more than 2 counters to an opening.
I love the fe. I may not agree with some of the stuff and the stats and instances are kind of twisted to fit a purpose but at least it is a strong editorial that is well thought out and provokes a reaction.
Yes fact there will never be the huge skill difference is sc2 as in bw due to the game engine not being retarded. There is so much micro and apm required because it was just a old shoddy engine with terrible unit ai.
Also yes the top sc2 players were worse bw players or aging and that is why they made the switch to start. And theoretically their could be a lot more great sc2 players if more top bw players switched.
But to be completely fair compare top bw games now and 6-7 years ago and those players will look terrible and bw had still been around 3 years already. Sc2 now compared to first gsl and you can see the amazing difference in how much the game has evolved already.
Yes flash and jd would probably be the top players if they put the practice and dedication they do into sc2 but realize their amazing bw play is built on the back of giants. They did not come into a brand new game and immediately be that good. They watched and learned from 9-10 years of progress before making their own names.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/R1CH/Happy2.gif)
. If HotS or LotV were to improve the gameplay and spectator experience, i will be sure to follow SC2 closely 
