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It's great article but I'd like to sum it up in one line:
Sure, we have great players in SC2 GSL. But they pale in comparison to the BW stars.
That was the point you're trying to make, right? OK, yes I agree that the champions and stars we're celebrating pale in comparison to Flash and Jaedong. OK fine. But are we ever going to see Flash and Jaedong convert to SC2?
The answer is, there's no ETA. If there's no Flash/Jaedong in the SC2 scene...why are we bringing their names up?
This article sounds very hateful towards the people we do have. As if they're total scrubs? As if they never deserved the winnings they won? And we should just hand over their prize money to Flash/Jaedong by default and just forget about even doing a tourney or something? It's plain disrepectful to compare NesTea, MC, MVP to highschool basketball compared to Flash/Jaedong "true" professional levels.
Sorry I completely disagree. This sounds exactly like how our grandfathers boast that the athletes of today...don't compare to the much cooler, much more skilled athletes of HIS time. How we don't have, and will never have, anyone who can compare to Babe Ruth.
Again my goal is not to take away from Flash/Jaedong. Again I state that they are legends.
But they are not playing SC2. And we won't know, if they'll make the conversion, if ever(as you said they're making 6 figures for BW. Why would they step down to 5 figures for SC2?)
This is like saying it's a farce to start up any alternative PGA, because Tiger Woods would own anyone and everyone who joined that. So why bother, is what you're saying. It's a farce unless Tiger Woods give it his blessing.
Sorry, but I disagree.
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The fact that SC2 is dominated by ex-BW players suggests strongly that there's a ton of skill set overlap between the two games. The fact that SC2 is dominated by ex-BW players who were quite lame compared to the top BW players suggests that SC2 is an open field where a lot of potential champions could come wreck the scene, because the current dominating SC2 players don't represent nearly the peak of that skill set. I find some of the hype directed towards SC2 winners a little disingenuous, since SC2 hasn't found its legends yet.
But that doesn't mean the competition is a "farce." Everyone is doing their best and paving the way for a competitive scene as strong as BW's. If all the SC2 players just waited around for Flash and Jaedong to switch over, then SC2 really wouldn't have a chance as an esport, because it would never get off the ground. Someone has to take the baby steps, and Flash and Jaedong aren't doing it --- they have their own careers. Whether Flash and Jaedong ever do switch over doesn't really matter to SC2 --- with or without them the skill level will rise and the really dominant players will emerge.
The only thing that irks me is when someone like Flash is compared to someone like MC. They aren't on the same level. But that doesn't mean that a tournament that MC wins is a "farce."
It's got to start somewhere.
Totally ninja'd by the guy above me. But yeah, appreciate what you've got. If the article really is meant as a "call to arms," then that's great, because the top level of SC2 is wide open.
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You've used a sledge hammer instead of a pen. I do not agree with your choice of aggression. If there is an elephant being ignored there is a reason for it. Instead of approaching it with grace you write a passionately negative article which will necessarily be received with passionate defence.
If you are a parent/become a parent I hope you don't hold the same values for your children. Do you tell a child that you don't love him because he is not yet what he could be? Do you devalue your child after seeing a different child grow to become a successful adult?
You're attitude is narcissistic. You want to have your cake and eat it too. You want SC2 to be what it is not. One reason BW is amazing is that it struggled and worked for years to develop into the professional esport that it is, while the community and players struggled and worked alongside it. You see the grandeur at the end but not the steps it takes to reach it. You're robbing the community of the joy of walking the path and enjoying the competition for what it is.
I should bloody well hope that this article does not represent TL's opinion. It insults the community its meant to represent. What about TeamLiquid? Will you tell the players what you think of the current state of their career?
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On May 13 2011 05:01 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:00 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 13 2011 04:57 Chill wrote:On May 13 2011 04:53 SlimeBagly wrote:
Yeah, there's nothing 'slight' about starting of your piece with a bold headline calling something a lot of people care a lot about and have worked hard for (few as hard as Chill) a "farce." Do we need to argue about the degree of belittling now? Jesus Christ this is getting to a new level of political correctness. The belittling in this thread is a farce, just wait until the S-class belittlers join in on this discussion. I can't really take this article seriously knowing there are much better writers out there not writing for TL
This post sums up why the article is wrong in less then 1% of the words it took for the article to make its intended point. Brilliant.
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On May 13 2011 05:00 Kinks wrote:Since we're throwing analogies and metaphors around, here's mine. The reaction I see in this thread is similar to the stereotypical angry backlash of Muslim extremists upon hearing any criticism of their beliefs. Only this time it ain't Mohammad, its SC2. Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:05 ZombiesOMG wrote:
Don't you even fucking try to make me or anyone else feel like what we choose to enjoy is lame or a "farce". That's what 10 year old kids do. This is why people can't have rational discussions about somewhat controversial ideas. All the points of the OP were well-worded, well-supported with stats, and the points made were accurate, yet strong emotions are involved because nobody likes criticism or feeling inferior. Let's face it, GSL is indeed dominated by B-class ex-BW pros, and all the former GSL winners were indeed B-class ex-BW pros. There's a correlation, and if you don't see the correlation, perhaps take a stats class or reevaluate your logic. Regardless, now its time to interpret this fact. To me, this simple fact does cheapen the SC2 scene. A bunch of nobodies and heros that have fallen from grace from the BW scene now are at the forefront of this new SC2 scene. Its like the big fishes got tired of swimming in the ocean and are now messing shit up back at the pond. Nobody is saying that SC2 isn't fun to watch and play, that's why our community is so big. Nobody is saying SC2 pros don't work hard; they work hard everyday. I'm not saying I'm better than SC2 pros. The cruel reality is that the SC2 competitive scene is dominated by wash-up people from the old scene. That's a dirty truth we just have to live with, and move on. With this conclusion though, it suggests that there is more room for improvement in the SC2, with more training, and better players entering the scene. It'll be interesting to see what happens in a year. People just need to chill out.
Why is it always either OP was worthless or OP was perfect. The formatting and statistics were good but alot of opinions and assumptions can be seen. I've written this many times in this thread but again:
The training part is just not true. There's no universal "best" way to train. As a ex pro swimmer i can say that different people require totally different regiments to gain their full potential. Some need less practice and more free time to explore their thing, some need rigid practice to develop.
There is a big possibility that a future Flash level player dropped out of BW cause of the extreme grindy type of work they practice. There's many variables and the OP focused only on the ones that further his point, not objective.
Also you take the easy way out if you just look at old BW statistics for a player and then say "He was bad a BW, that means he wins SC2 tournaments cause they are low skilled". A mediocre player CAN develop into a great one with the right attitude and coaching/practice. I've seen guys who were pretty shitty at a early age, only to develop to at least national or even EU level pro swimmers. It can be due to growing up, finding motivation in competition/goals OR they changed the way they train.
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don't you think its kinda unfair to compare the best of the best for a 12 year old game to the "new" sc2? to say sc2 is a "fail" already is just dumb and its clear you like BW ( OP ), but let sc2 have their own legends, and "heroes" befor you bash at the game, its new, its not as figured out as BW is
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On May 13 2011 05:01 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:00 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 13 2011 04:57 Chill wrote:On May 13 2011 04:53 SlimeBagly wrote:
Yeah, there's nothing 'slight' about starting of your piece with a bold headline calling something a lot of people care a lot about and have worked hard for (few as hard as Chill) a "farce." Do we need to argue about the degree of belittling now? Jesus Christ this is getting to a new level of political correctness. The belittling in this thread is a farce, just wait until the S-class belittlers join in on this discussion. I can't really take this article seriously knowing there are much better writers out there not writing for TL
If the OP made front page, so should this comment.
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On May 13 2011 05:08 D_K_night wrote:
It's great article but I'd like to sum it up in one line:
Sure, we have great players in SC2 GSL. But they pale in comparison to the BW stars.
That was the point you're trying to make, right? OK, yes I agree that the champions and stars we're celebrating pale in comparison to Flash and Jaedong. OK fine. But are we ever going to see Flash and Jaedong convert to SC2?
The answer is, there's no ETA. If there's no Flash/Jaedong in the SC2 scene...why are we bringing their names up?
This article sounds very hateful towards the people we do have. As if they're total scrubs? As if they never deserved the winnings they won? And we should just hand over their prize money to Flash/Jaedong by default and just forget about even doing a tourney or something? It's plain disrepectful to compare NesTea, MC, MVP to highschool basketball compared to Flash/Jaedong "true" professional levels.
Sorry I completely disagree. This sounds exactly like how our grandfathers boast that the athletes of today...don't compare to the much cooler, much more skilled athletes of HIS time. How we don't have, and will never have, anyone who can compare to Babe Ruth.
Again my goal is not to take away from Flash/Jaedong. Again I state that they are legends.
But they are not playing SC2. And we won't know, if they'll make the conversion, if ever(as you said they're making 6 figures for BW. Why would they step down to 5 figures for SC2?)
This is like saying it's a farce to start up any alternative PGA, because Tiger Woods would own anyone and everyone who joined that. So why bother, is what you're saying. It's a farce unless Tiger Woods give it his blessing.
Sorry, but I disagree.
Your missing the point.
He is saying the BW pros now have been weeded out from a tough work-ethic based system where 12 hours of practice a day may just be a minimum.
Surely, if SC2 continues AND cultivates a strict skill maximizing team system there will one day be JD + Flash "clones" (or people of similar work ethic and raw talent)
But as of right now the pinicle of this talent (which there seems to be a connection between BW and SC2 talent) is in BW.
No one is saying anything about blessings or handing trophys. People who care about sc2 will continue watching no matter what intrigue writes. Don't draw conclusions that prove your own point, its quite pathetic.
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On May 13 2011 05:05 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:03 Oreo7 wrote:
This is silly and based on poor logic. The assumption that "you're good at BW therefore good at sc2" wasn't proven at all throughout the article. Many people have observed that sc2 is a much more cerebral game. In any case, we can't know how well flash, jd, bisu and others would do in sc2 until they play sc2. I think it is pretty openly assumed near the top of the article. Show nested quote +The three GSL winners, (Z)FruitDealer, (Z)NesTea, and (P)MC - objectively, they are remarkable players. (Z)FruitDealer is always a joy to behold, with his schizophrenic tech paths and compulsive risk-taking. Detective (Z)NesTea seems to find every sneaky probe red-handed and guilty-faced with its stupid little proxy pylon, like an Easter bunny that hides turds instead of eggs. The Kratoss (P)MC just dispassionately stomps kids all day. All have shown themselves to be capable under pressure, and all have posted great results.
We see the clear Brood War Advantage© in action here. Their mechanics are honed and their instincts unerringly accurate. If we are to believe Tasteless and Artosis, these ex-Brood War pros were all “sick good” at that game, and imported it over to SC2. They certainly were, compared to non-Koreans. But if we look at the actual numbers behind their Brood War careers, it immediately becomes obvious that they were nobodies in their own scene.
Reading this again makes me realise how wrong he is in his 2nd paragraph. Tastosis have told the stories many times of Nestea being and old and unsuccessful 2v2 player in BW (does anyone remember John's epic speech after his win? :D) and MC being named the suicide 'toss because of the ceremonies he did before losing badly.
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I have been ranting about this for months.
It's awesome to see someone else who feels so.
Thanks a lot for the writeup.
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On May 13 2011 05:01 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:00 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 13 2011 04:57 Chill wrote:On May 13 2011 04:53 SlimeBagly wrote:
Yeah, there's nothing 'slight' about starting of your piece with a bold headline calling something a lot of people care a lot about and have worked hard for (few as hard as Chill) a "farce." Do we need to argue about the degree of belittling now? Jesus Christ this is getting to a new level of political correctness. The belittling in this thread is a farce, just wait until the S-class belittlers join in on this discussion. I can't really take this article seriously knowing there are much better writers out there not writing for TL
Now that's pretty good, lol.
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Soviethammer stop using someone else's work and brilliant to speak for your own agenda, be a man say your opinion in your own words. 
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On May 13 2011 05:01 syllogism wrote:
I can't really take this article seriously knowing there are much better writers out there not writing for TL
So perfect  And perfectly illustrates why his point, while true, is silly. Knowing there are better teams/players/fighters out there doesn't diminish the entertainment value of what you're watching. Most of the US still remembers the US-Algeria match during the last World Cup, when Donovan scored at the end. Does the fact that both teams were pretty bad and the US only scored because Algeria sent everyone forward matter? Not a bit.
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On May 13 2011 05:01 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:00 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 13 2011 04:57 Chill wrote:On May 13 2011 04:53 SlimeBagly wrote:
Yeah, there's nothing 'slight' about starting of your piece with a bold headline calling something a lot of people care a lot about and have worked hard for (few as hard as Chill) a "farce." Do we need to argue about the degree of belittling now? Jesus Christ this is getting to a new level of political correctness. The belittling in this thread is a farce, just wait until the S-class belittlers join in on this discussion. I can't really take this article seriously knowing there are much better writers out there not writing for TL
lmfao. you, sir, are absolutely brilliant
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On May 13 2011 05:14 raser wrote:
don't you think its kinda unfair to compare the best of the best for a 12 year old game to the "new" sc2? to say sc2 is a "fail" already is just dumb and its clear you like BW ( OP ), but let sc2 have their own legends, and "heroes" befor you bash at the game, its new, its not as figured out as BW is
He's not bashing. He saying the SC2 "legends" or to be legends are BW fails.
Draw conclusions.
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Wow, what a douchebag-post (can't find a better word for it). What's the point exactly of this frontpage article? BW-players are better than SC2-players? Even if that is the case, what value adds the article to the community?
The whining levels of the article are comparable to the average imbalance posts, only this time you say SC2 players are underpowered compared to BW players.
User was warned for this post
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On May 13 2011 05:17 Darksidius wrote:
Wow, what a douchebag-post (can't find a better word for it). What's the point exactly of this frontpage article? BW-players are better than SC2-players? Even if that is the case, what value adds the article to the community?
The whining levels of the article are comparable to the average imbalance posts, only this time you say SC2 players are underpowered compared to BW players.
Because the top SC2 players are BW averages --> fails...
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Is there a bet in between the TL writters as to whom can make a post/thread that moves the fastest?
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On May 13 2011 05:01 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:00 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 13 2011 04:57 Chill wrote:On May 13 2011 04:53 SlimeBagly wrote:
Yeah, there's nothing 'slight' about starting of your piece with a bold headline calling something a lot of people care a lot about and have worked hard for (few as hard as Chill) a "farce." Do we need to argue about the degree of belittling now? Jesus Christ this is getting to a new level of political correctness. The belittling in this thread is a farce, just wait until the S-class belittlers join in on this discussion. I can't really take this article seriously knowing there are much better writers out there not writing for TL
Decided to sign up just to comment on the greatness of your post - thank you so much for summing it up!!
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This is irrelevant but can people stop using the phrase "Have your cake and eat it too."? There is a near 1:1 of "Have Cake" to "Eat it too" ratio and the phrase is incredibly meaningless in the face of such statistics. In what country is it ok to bake someone a cake and explicitly tell them they aren't allowed to have it?
I come from the fighting game community, and a lot of this is actually pretty analogous. However, I mostly disagree with the OP's points of view. And this idea that because there have been well developed / fleshed out games of a genre, that later games of the genre will be learned much more quickly, is very untrue.
This isn't nearly as truthful as it seems intuitively. Street Fighter 4 and all of it's versions are still being innovated years after SF4 came out (the new versions are equivalent to balance patches). There has been years, upon years, upon years of innovation in this regard (older than Brood War, actually) and yet still new things are being learned about the game. The same applies to Marvel VS Capcom 3, Marvel 2 was competitive for over 10 years, MVC3 came out a little bit later than SC2, but it won't be figured out for another 10 years--just like Marvel 2. Super Street Fighter 4: Arcade Edition will take years to fully develop. People are still opening up new doors and possibilities, character potential from characters that were thought to be at their peak pushed further.
Starcraft 2 will not be anywhere near what Brood War was like until likely 2-3 years after the last expansion (Starcraft 1 pre-brood war mind you was like, kind of terrible, and it's odd that people aren't bringing up that the new units introduced by brood war, and the balance patching of brood war, is where most of the balance came from. The first game just laid a foundation).
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EPT
