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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On May 13 2011 05:18 dangots0ul wrote: Because the top SC2 players are BW averages --> fails... And some top SC2 players never played BW, and some of the "above-averages" from BW aren't doing as well as some of the no-names. What's the fucking point? It's a different game. Some people are doing well, some aren't. | ||
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TheKRoc
United States74 Posts
Ultimately, this article warrants the same response as other posts comparing the two games (sorry). Wait, and watch. | ||
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Eurekastreet
1308 Posts
I used to be pretty decent at Unreal Tournament 2004 which I played for 5-6 years almost everyday. The first year it came out, I could hear almost every day Unreal Tournament 99 lovers saying the game was poorly designed, weapons were imba, movments were wrong etc...fortunately those people disappeared after some time, went back to playing UT99 or understood they just had to adapt. Because you're good at one version of a game doesn't mean you'll be equally good at playing the next version. And that community didn't have much (any ?) money involved in it so people complained for the sake of complaining. Like you do. Would Roger Federed have been as famous as successfull if he had been playing Badminton ? I don't know and I don't care. Your SC1 champions, as good as they are, would have had to adapt to SC2, and nothing is there to prove the switch would have been 100% successful. Being rather new to SC2 I don't know of the old guard but the few guys I've heard about (Nada, Boxer, July) while being good at SC2 were never more impressive than some other players. You got stats about that, but it's easy to use stats in the way that suits you, anyone could probably turn them around to prove the opposite of your point. Hundreds of thousands of people (millions ?) are playing starcraft, if you think people like Nestea, Mvp win two consecutive GSL out of sheer luck, you got a problem adding 1+1. They're the best at what they're doing for now, period. Your SC1 heroes are not one of a kind. You forgot to consider it's a different game, you forgot to consider people might improve with time, you forgot to consider there will always be new young hungry people coming that will eat the competition and out of the huge amount of numbers playing this game, you gotta be damn talentful to get the biggest part of the cake. There's people who'd argue that Pele was the greatest soccer player of all time. I'm pretty sure, as amazing as he was back then, he'd get buried by the competition today. For someone like me who only knows the SC1 players who switched to SC2 and have seen their average tourney results, once you took all the fat away, your argument boils down to Flash or Jaedong are way better than anyone in SC2 because.... they are Flash and Jaedong. Useless post. Can't wait for your essay on imbalance in SC2 vs SC1. Make a teamhouse with Idra too. | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On May 13 2011 05:20 Kich wrote: This is irrelevant but can people stop using the phrase "Have your cake and eat it too."? There is a near 1:1 of "Have Cake" to "Eat it too" ratio and the phrase is incredibly meaningless in the face of such statistics. In what country is it ok to bake someone a cake and explicitly tell them they aren't allowed to have it? No no, you can definitely bake your cake and eat it too. You just can't eat your cake and also have it. Law of conservation of matter and energy, etc. | ||
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Kinks
Canada17 Posts
On May 13 2011 05:21 Mordiford wrote: And some top SC2 players never played BW, and some of the "above-averages" from BW aren't doing as well as some of the no-names. What's the fucking point? It's a different game. Some people are doing well, some aren't. All the winners of GSL winners are none other than your "above average" former BW-players. | ||
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Mouth
United States122 Posts
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qdenser
Canada133 Posts
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Kich
United States339 Posts
On May 13 2011 05:23 Jyvblamo wrote: No no, you can definitely bake your cake and eat it too. You just can't eat your cake and also have it. Law of conservation of matter and energy, etc. ... Who the fuck would ever want to just have a cake sitting idly with no prospect of eating it? Seriously, the phrase needs to go. Can we go with something a bit more not-stupid like, "You can't have it both ways"? | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
On May 13 2011 05:23 Jyvblamo wrote: No no, you can definitely bake your cake and eat it too. You just can't eat your cake and also have it. Law of conservation of matter and energy, etc. Well technically you will still possess the cake in one form or another, at least for a period of 4-6 hours. Law of bowel movements, etc. | ||
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nEAnS
Canada161 Posts
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RushWifDietCoke
United States488 Posts
On May 13 2011 05:08 D_K_night wrote: It's great article but I'd like to sum it up in one line: Sure, we have great players in SC2 GSL. But they pale in comparison to the BW stars. That was the point you're trying to make, right? OK, yes I agree that the champions and stars we're celebrating pale in comparison to Flash and Jaedong. OK fine. But are we ever going to see Flash and Jaedong convert to SC2? The answer is, there's no ETA. If there's no Flash/Jaedong in the SC2 scene...why are we bringing their names up? This article sounds very hateful towards the people we do have. As if they're total scrubs? As if they never deserved the winnings they won? And we should just hand over their prize money to Flash/Jaedong by default and just forget about even doing a tourney or something? It's plain disrepectful to compare NesTea, MC, MVP to highschool basketball compared to Flash/Jaedong "true" professional levels. Sorry I completely disagree. This sounds exactly like how our grandfathers boast that the athletes of today...don't compare to the much cooler, much more skilled athletes of HIS time. How we don't have, and will never have, anyone who can compare to Babe Ruth. Again my goal is not to take away from Flash/Jaedong. Again I state that they are legends. But they are not playing SC2. And we won't know, if they'll make the conversion, if ever(as you said they're making 6 figures for BW. Why would they step down to 5 figures for SC2?) This is like saying it's a farce to start up any alternative PGA, because Tiger Woods would own anyone and everyone who joined that. So why bother, is what you're saying. It's a farce unless Tiger Woods give it his blessing. Sorry, but I disagree. I actually agree with the article but I find your argument quite convincing and well spoken good sir. On an unrelated note to your post, Intrigue or someone else can correct me if I'm wrong but I think the main reason this finally needed to be discussed is because of the bad rep broodwar has been getting. I think people are more aware now that Nestea, MC, and MVP were merely mediocre progamers at broodwar but maybe even just a month ago people would insult broodwar by referring to Nestea, MC, and MVP as the top broodwar players and often say other players are having more success than broodwar gamers. Just as he said they are mediocre pro broodwar players. Personally, I don't think he wanted to insinuate any hate towards SC2, but he wasn't going to stand around and watch broodwar be insulted when people say broodwar players are only having moderate success in SC2. The truth is, if the very best switched over they would more than likely do extremely well, and he backs it up with evidence. | ||
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OwlFeet
75 Posts
On May 13 2011 04:25 Chill wrote: I think that's a pretty stupid conclusion. How could you ever enjoy anything in your life knowing you're not watching the absolute best? Edit: That's not even correct. You are watching the best, but not the highest potential. That makes it even harder to enjoy anything in life. Wow that play was amazing but was it the absolute best possible play. Surely not. | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On May 13 2011 05:01 syllogism wrote: I can't really take this article seriously knowing there are much better writers out there not writing for TL You just won the thread sir. | ||
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dangots0ul
United States919 Posts
On May 13 2011 05:21 Mordiford wrote: And some top SC2 players never played BW, and some of the "above-averages" from BW aren't doing as well as some of the no-names. What's the fucking point? It's a different game. Some people are doing well, some aren't. The only "above-average" from BW is MVP. Don't say some cause there are only guys with less than 50% win average, washed up old pros and B-team trainer partners. saying "its a different game" doesn't auto prove shit - as your petty mind may think. Its a god damn pattern. Of the like 20-30 former BW players than went over They occupy top 8 out of 10. But i guess that means nothing because "its a different game" Please get your "fucking" point together before you try to make sense of it with content less statements. try again | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
It was a great read and I definitely agree. I just can't blame them for switching to SC2, they were indeed quite bad at BW, and suddenly got a great occasion to shine and make much more money than they would have done staying in B-teams in BW. I know the BW skills are not always transferable to SC2, but good BW players have so much more raw talent (speed, precision, game sense, decision making and these are all transferable for sure), that they would dominate the SC2 scene for sure. This and the SC2 design that makes the skill ceiling lower (not going to go through this again, please read this excellent article http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213083 ), make indeed SC2 a farce so far. | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On May 13 2011 05:25 Kich wrote: ... Who the fuck would ever want to just have a cake sitting idly with no prospect of eating it? Seriously, the phrase needs to go. Can we go with something a bit more not-stupid like, "You can't have it both ways"? But if you have a cake, you can then eat it later. But if you eat it now, then you won't have a cake, and thus further on down the line, you won't be able to eat it. Or so they tell me, I've never been to a bakery. | ||
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Special Endrey
Germany1929 Posts
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On May 13 2011 05:25 qdenser wrote: it's kind of funny how a post titled 'the elephant in the room' has a big unmentioned flaw in the whole idea of the post: the low skill cap of sc2 won't allow for it ever to be competitive enough for even very good players to differentiate themselves much from the pack. it'll just be a random clash of build order counters until blizzard is finally done patching the game and releasing expansions, and everyone gets bored and moves on to the next shiny toy Yeah cause a player like MVP had a slump and went down to Code A. He then got all the way to the code A finals, how do you do that when good players can't differentiate themselves? How is it that Nestea is the only zerg to really go far in code S, is it build order luck? Sure pros have their ups and downs and SC2 is volatile. But saying it's just build order wins is retarded, quite frankly. | ||
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DarkMatter_
Canada1774 Posts
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simblor
New Zealand12 Posts
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