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On May 13 2011 04:55 heaven- wrote:
different game. irrelevant article
No, it's just dumb and downright delusional to assume that we can't make inferences on a player's ability to excel in a different game based on their performance in a different but similar game. For example, I can safely assume that if Roger Federer played me in squash, even if he's never played squash before, he would beat me, despite the fact that there is absolutely no obvious evidence showing that he is more skilled than me in squash (due to having never played a game).
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This is a very amusing.
TL.net delivers.
I could read this over and over and I'd still laugh.
Starcraft <3 (both bw & sc2)
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On May 13 2011 05:00 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 04:57 Chill wrote:On May 13 2011 04:53 SlimeBagly wrote:
Yeah, there's nothing 'slight' about starting of your piece with a bold headline calling something a lot of people care a lot about and have worked hard for (few as hard as Chill) a "farce." Do we need to argue about the degree of belittling now? Jesus Christ this is getting to a new level of political correctness. The op is 80 mili-idras.
I'm sorry, but that honestly made me lol more than anything else today. Idra is my new meter of Political and Social Correctness (or lack thereof).
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What glorious mindfucks have yet to manifest from the old gods???? Come, teach us your ways!!!!
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This is silly and based on poor logic. The assumption that "you're good at BW therefore good at sc2" wasn't proven at all throughout the article. Many people have observed that sc2 is a much more cerebral game. In any case, we can't know how well flash, jd, bisu and others would do in sc2 until they play sc2.
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On May 13 2011 05:01 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:00 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 13 2011 04:57 Chill wrote:On May 13 2011 04:53 SlimeBagly wrote:
Yeah, there's nothing 'slight' about starting of your piece with a bold headline calling something a lot of people care a lot about and have worked hard for (few as hard as Chill) a "farce." Do we need to argue about the degree of belittling now? Jesus Christ this is getting to a new level of political correctness. The belittling in this thread is a farce, just wait until the S-class belittlers join in on this discussion. I can't really take this article seriously knowing there are much better writers out there not writing for TL
lol....qft
User was warned for this post
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I don't know why but I keep coming back to things like MKP micro vs banlings and Flashs micro vs Lurkers. Jaedongs mutl-tasking and what I've seen recently of Mondi's multi prong burrowed roach attacks. Bests heavy gateway style and Huks apparent SC2 version that I've yet to see.
I guess my point is that although it'd be a little thin, there has to be room to bridge the gap to show "skill level" and "potential" rather than throwing out statistics, legacies, and and some of the adjectives used. Broodwar had a long history as an RTS there is bound to be parallels between what it went through and what SC2 will go through. I dunno.
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On May 13 2011 05:00 Kinks wrote:Since we're throwing analogies and metaphors around, here's mine. The reaction I see in this thread is similar to the stereotypical angry backlash of Muslim extremists upon hearing any criticism of their beliefs. Only this time it ain't Mohammad, its SC2. Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:05 ZombiesOMG wrote:
Don't you even fucking try to make me or anyone else feel like what we choose to enjoy is lame or a "farce". That's what 10 year old kids do. This is why people can't have rational discussions about somewhat controversial ideas. All the points of the OP were well-worded, well-supported with stats, and the points made were accurate, yet strong emotions are involved because nobody likes criticism or feeling inferior. Let's face it, GSL is indeed dominated by B-class ex-BW pros, and all the former GSL winners were indeed B-class ex-BW pros. There's a correlation, and if you don't see the correlation, perhaps take a stats class or reevaluate your logic. Regardless, now its time to interpret this fact. To me, this simple fact does cheapen the SC2 scene. A bunch of nobodies and heros that have fallen from grace from the BW scene now are at the forefront of this new SC2 scene. Its like the big fishes got tired of swimming in the ocean and are now messing shit up back at the pond. Nobody is saying that SC2 isn't fun to watch and play, that's why our community is so big. Nobody is saying SC2 pros don't work hard; they work hard everyday. I'm not saying I'm better than SC2 pros. The cruel reality is that the SC2 competitive scene is dominated by wash-up people from the old scene. That's a dirty truth we just have to live with, and move on. With this conclusion though, it suggests that there is more room for improvement in the SC2, with more training, and better players entering the scene. It'll be interesting to see what happens in a year. People just need to chill out.
Bolded part:
Except that's almost exactly what the OP was saying. And that's wrong.
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On May 13 2011 05:01 DarkMatter_ wrote:No, it's just dumb and downright delusional to assume that we can't make inferences on a player's ability to excel in a different game based on their performance in a different but similar game. For example, I can safely assume that if Roger Federer played me in squash, even if he's never played squash before, he would beat me, despite the fact that there is absolutely no obvious evidence showing that he is more skilled than me in squash (due to having never played a game).
Dude the question is not if Roger Federer would beat You, but if he would beat world squash champion.
On the article, Nice read, but i tottaly disagree.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On May 13 2011 05:01 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:00 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 13 2011 04:57 Chill wrote:On May 13 2011 04:53 SlimeBagly wrote:
Yeah, there's nothing 'slight' about starting of your piece with a bold headline calling something a lot of people care a lot about and have worked hard for (few as hard as Chill) a "farce." Do we need to argue about the degree of belittling now? Jesus Christ this is getting to a new level of political correctness. The belittling in this thread is a farce, just wait until the S-class belittlers join in on this discussion. I can't really take this article seriously knowing there are much better writers out there not writing for TL
Hahahahahahaha okay that comment is actually amazing ^^
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On May 13 2011 05:03 Oreo7 wrote:
This is silly and based on poor logic. The assumption that "you're good at BW therefore good at sc2" wasn't proven at all throughout the article. Many people have observed that sc2 is a much more cerebral game. In any case, we can't know how well flash, jd, bisu and others would do in sc2 until they play sc2.
that was the whole point. Look at who is at the top. Thats like saying i cant see atoms thus they do not exist. Patterns show trends, though not perfect, prove points.
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On May 13 2011 05:03 Oreo7 wrote:
This is silly and based on poor logic. The assumption that "you're good at BW therefore good at sc2" wasn't proven at all throughout the article. Many people have observed that sc2 is a much more cerebral game. In any case, we can't know how well flash, jd, bisu and others would do in sc2 until they play sc2.
I think it is pretty openly assumed near the top of the article.
The three GSL winners, (Z)FruitDealer, (Z)NesTea, and (P)MC - objectively, they are remarkable players. (Z)FruitDealer is always a joy to behold, with his schizophrenic tech paths and compulsive risk-taking. Detective (Z)NesTea seems to find every sneaky probe red-handed and guilty-faced with its stupid little proxy pylon, like an Easter bunny that hides turds instead of eggs. The Kratoss (P)MC just dispassionately stomps kids all day. All have shown themselves to be capable under pressure, and all have posted great results.
We see the clear Brood War Advantage© in action here. Their mechanics are honed and their instincts unerringly accurate. If we are to believe Tasteless and Artosis, these ex-Brood War pros were all “sick good” at that game, and imported it over to SC2. They certainly were, compared to non-Koreans. But if we look at the actual numbers behind their Brood War careers, it immediately becomes obvious that they were nobodies in their own scene.
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Why is intrigue being dismissed as a BW fanboy just looking to belittle SC2? Look at his posting history. He hasn't even been particularly involved in the BW community for a while now.
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On May 13 2011 05:04 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:01 syllogism wrote:On May 13 2011 05:00 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 13 2011 04:57 Chill wrote:On May 13 2011 04:53 SlimeBagly wrote:
Yeah, there's nothing 'slight' about starting of your piece with a bold headline calling something a lot of people care a lot about and have worked hard for (few as hard as Chill) a "farce." Do we need to argue about the degree of belittling now? Jesus Christ this is getting to a new level of political correctness. The belittling in this thread is a farce, just wait until the S-class belittlers join in on this discussion. I can't really take this article seriously knowing there are much better writers out there not writing for TL Hahahahahahaha okay that comment is actually amazing ^^
it took me a good 2 seconds to realize why this is funny
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On May 13 2011 05:01 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:00 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 13 2011 04:57 Chill wrote:On May 13 2011 04:53 SlimeBagly wrote:
Yeah, there's nothing 'slight' about starting of your piece with a bold headline calling something a lot of people care a lot about and have worked hard for (few as hard as Chill) a "farce." Do we need to argue about the degree of belittling now? Jesus Christ this is getting to a new level of political correctness. The belittling in this thread is a farce, just wait until the S-class belittlers join in on this discussion. I can't really take this article seriously knowing there are much better writers out there not writing for TL
Pure Brilliance.
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On May 13 2011 05:01 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:00 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 13 2011 04:57 Chill wrote:On May 13 2011 04:53 SlimeBagly wrote:
Yeah, there's nothing 'slight' about starting of your piece with a bold headline calling something a lot of people care a lot about and have worked hard for (few as hard as Chill) a "farce." Do we need to argue about the degree of belittling now? Jesus Christ this is getting to a new level of political correctness. The belittling in this thread is a farce, just wait until the S-class belittlers join in on this discussion. I can't really take this article seriously knowing there are much better writers out there not writing for TL
The article was certainly well written but this was golden ^^
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All of the arguments against this theory come down to making shitty analogies.
Are the same patterns in play in your analogy as they are in the BW players that have gone to SC2?!?!
NO.
Stop calling the article dumb and shortsighted while you can't even do obvious compare and contrasting.
Your posts make me fully realize what leveling in America has done to us.
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On May 13 2011 05:03 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:00 Kinks wrote:Since we're throwing analogies and metaphors around, here's mine. The reaction I see in this thread is similar to the stereotypical angry backlash of Muslim extremists upon hearing any criticism of their beliefs. Only this time it ain't Mohammad, its SC2. On May 13 2011 02:05 ZombiesOMG wrote:
Don't you even fucking try to make me or anyone else feel like what we choose to enjoy is lame or a "farce". That's what 10 year old kids do. This is why people can't have rational discussions about somewhat controversial ideas. All the points of the OP were well-worded, well-supported with stats, and the points made were accurate, yet strong emotions are involved because nobody likes criticism or feeling inferior. Let's face it, GSL is indeed dominated by B-class ex-BW pros, and all the former GSL winners were indeed B-class ex-BW pros. There's a correlation, and if you don't see the correlation, perhaps take a stats class or reevaluate your logic. Regardless, now its time to interpret this fact. To me, this simple fact does cheapen the SC2 scene. A bunch of nobodies and heros that have fallen from grace from the BW scene now are at the forefront of this new SC2 scene. Its like the big fishes got tired of swimming in the ocean and are now messing shit up back at the pond. Nobody is saying that SC2 isn't fun to watch and play, that's why our community is so big. Nobody is saying SC2 pros don't work hard; they work hard everyday. I'm not saying I'm better than SC2 pros. The cruel reality is that the SC2 competitive scene is dominated by wash-up people from the old scene. That's a dirty truth we just have to live with, and move on. With this conclusion though, it suggests that there is more room for improvement in the SC2, with more training, and better players entering the scene. It'll be interesting to see what happens in a year. People just need to chill out. Bolded part: Except that's almost exactly what the OP was saying. And that's wrong.
If you can read my post, feel free to read OP's then
Was ThorZaIN vs oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic. But isn't high school football in Friday Night Lights really exciting too?
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On May 13 2011 05:03 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:01 DarkMatter_ wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/smilies.php On May 13 2011 04:55 heaven- wrote:
different game. irrelevant article No, it's just dumb and downright delusional to assume that we can't make inferences on a player's ability to excel in a different game based on their performance in a different but similar game. For example, I can safely assume that if Roger Federer played me in squash, even if he's never played squash before, he would beat me, despite the fact that there is absolutely no obvious evidence showing that he is more skilled than me in squash (due to having never played a game). Dude the question is not if Roger Federer would beat You, but if he would beat world squash champion. On the article, Nice read, but i tottaly disagree.
His whole argument is based on the fact that because it's a different game, we can't reach any conclusions about how BW progamers would perform in SC2. If you can't make the assumption that Flash and Jaedong dominate MC and Nestea simply because "it's a different game", then that means you can't even make the assumption that they would beat you or any other SC2 player because the argument of "but it's a different game" still applies.
Dismissing this whole issue with such an argument is just lazy and shows an unwillingness to accept the fact that the skill level at which SC2 is being played at is inferior to BW.
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On May 13 2011 05:01 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:00 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 13 2011 04:57 Chill wrote:On May 13 2011 04:53 SlimeBagly wrote:
Yeah, there's nothing 'slight' about starting of your piece with a bold headline calling something a lot of people care a lot about and have worked hard for (few as hard as Chill) a "farce." Do we need to argue about the degree of belittling now? Jesus Christ this is getting to a new level of political correctness. The belittling in this thread is a farce, just wait until the S-class belittlers join in on this discussion. I can't really take this article seriously knowing there are much better writers out there not writing for TL
you win
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EPT
