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On May 13 2011 05:39 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:37 DarkMatter_ wrote:On May 13 2011 05:23 Eurekastreet wrote:
Your SC1 champions, as good as they are, would have had to adapt to SC2, and nothing is there to prove the switch would have been 100% successful. Being rather new to SC2 I don't know of the old guard but the few guys I've heard about (Nada, Boxer, July) while being good at SC2 were never more impressive than some other players. It annoys me to constantly see ignorant SC2 fans make this mistake. Nada/Boxer/July were all outstanding players in BW during their prime, but since then, the game has developed much more and has gotten much more competitive, while their skill level had started to wane. By the end of their BW careers, Boxer and July were just washed up old stars. Same with Nada but to a lesser extent as he still had the occasional showing in proleague and even winning now and then. Boxer/July/Nada are in no way representative of the current best BW players. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu are in a completely different league and if washed up old pros (I hate calling them that but it's true) and crappy B-teamers can be this successful at SC2, there is little question as to whether or not Flash, Jaedong, Bisu would absolutely dominate the SC2 scene should they switch. You got stats about that, but it's easy to use stats in the way that suits you, anyone could probably turn them around to prove the opposite of your point.
Hundreds of thousands of people (millions ?) are playing starcraft, if you think people like Nestea, Mvp win two consecutive GSL out of sheer luck, you got a problem adding 1+1. They're the best at what they're doing for now, period. Dude, that's not what he's saying. He never said SC2 progamers won out of sheer luck. I highly suggest you read the article again because it seems like you're completely missing the point. The best Brood War player to go to SC2 was intotherainbow, and he kind of sucks. There's not a 1-to-1 skill differential.
What...? Where did you get that idea?
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Obvious article is obvious. Follow the money. The only thing SC2 needs to attract the highest talent level is a bigger fanbase, and that means TV contracts. But it's not a surprise Kespa would use its TV broadcasting monopoly to keep out a competitor, though thankfully that spate is over now.
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Wonderful article, especially for noobs like me. Puts the whole SC2 scene in proper historical context.
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On May 13 2011 05:39 Ribbon wrote:The best Brood War player to go to SC2 was intotherainbow, and he kind of sucks. There's not a 1-to-1 skill differential.
As someone else pointed out, MVP is the only semi-decent BW progamer to have switched to SC2 (and even he was below average in BW). There are many other who were great at one point in time in BW but by the time they switched to SC2, they were all pretty terrible and would most likely lose to anyone from the A-team.
EDIT: Wow, I totally failed with the formatting of that post. I fixed it now.
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On May 13 2011 05:41 Tarot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:39 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 05:37 DarkMatter_ wrote:On May 13 2011 05:23 Eurekastreet wrote:
Your SC1 champions, as good as they are, would have had to adapt to SC2, and nothing is there to prove the switch would have been 100% successful. Being rather new to SC2 I don't know of the old guard but the few guys I've heard about (Nada, Boxer, July) while being good at SC2 were never more impressive than some other players. It annoys me to constantly see ignorant SC2 fans make this mistake. Nada/Boxer/July were all outstanding players in BW during their prime, but since then, the game has developed much more and has gotten much more competitive, while their skill level had started to wane. By the end of their BW careers, Boxer and July were just washed up old stars. Same with Nada but to a lesser extent as he still had the occasional showing in proleague and even winning now and then. Boxer/July/Nada are in no way representative of the current best BW players. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu are in a completely different league and if washed up old pros (I hate calling them that but it's true) and crappy B-teamers can be this successful at SC2, there is little question as to whether or not Flash, Jaedong, Bisu would absolutely dominate the SC2 scene should they switch. You got stats about that, but it's easy to use stats in the way that suits you, anyone could probably turn them around to prove the opposite of your point.
Hundreds of thousands of people (millions ?) are playing starcraft, if you think people like Nestea, Mvp win two consecutive GSL out of sheer luck, you got a problem adding 1+1. They're the best at what they're doing for now, period. Dude, that's not what he's saying. He never said SC2 progamers won out of sheer luck. I highly suggest you read the article again because it seems like you're completely missing the point. The best Brood War player to go to SC2 was intotherainbow, and he kind of sucks. There's not a 1-to-1 skill differential. What...? Where did you get that idea?
From the OP
In any case, every player listed so far proved nothing in Brood War and are now tearing up SC2 one year later. Only two ex-BW pros have the distinction of being above average in their past careers:
(T)RainBOw, Code S, GSL silver and bronze - 116-114 (50.43%)
(P)Ace, stomped white dudes at IEM – 2-0 (100%)
Rainbow was doing better at the time of the switch then Nada/July/Boxer were doing at that same time. I'm taking OP's word for it, though.
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On May 13 2011 05:30 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:25 moopie wrote:On May 13 2011 05:23 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 13 2011 05:20 Kich wrote:
This is irrelevant but can people stop using the phrase "Have your cake and eat it too."? There is a near 1:1 of "Have Cake" to "Eat it too" ratio and the phrase is incredibly meaningless in the face of such statistics. In what country is it ok to bake someone a cake and explicitly tell them they aren't allowed to have it? No no, you can definitely bake your cake and eat it too. You just can't eat your cake and also have it. Law of conservation of matter and energy, etc. Well technically you will still possess the cake in one form or another, at least for a period of 4-6 hours. Law of bowel movements, etc. But then we come to the philosophical question of at what point does removing a grain of sand from a pile of sand make it no longer a pile? At what point along in the digestion can we conclusively say that, this is no longer cake, it's mush.
Yet alas the term 'cake' is loosely defined to be a sweet food made from a mixture of flour, shortening, eggs, sugar etc (and even some of those are not mandatory). Since the initial ingredients are partly arbitrary, who's to say that once partially digested and thus missing some of the ingredients, the object is no longer fit for the definition of cake?
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On May 13 2011 05:43 Defacer wrote:
Wonderful article, especially for noobs like me. Puts the whole SC2 scene in proper historical context.
If you're a noob, don't place stock in the article and read the rest of the thread.
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On May 13 2011 05:42 domovoi wrote:
Obvious article is obvious. Follow the money. The only thing SC2 needs to attract the highest talent level is a bigger fanbase, and that means TV contracts. But it's not a surprise Kespa would use its TV broadcasting monopoly to keep out a competitor, though thankfully that spate is over now.
Apparently, you don't have the slightest idea what the Blizzard vs. kespa lawsuit is about. Please don't make rash comments about things you know nothing about.
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On May 13 2011 05:33 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:26 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 05:21 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 05:18 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 05:17 Darksidius wrote:
Wow, what a douchebag-post (can't find a better word for it). What's the point exactly of this frontpage article? BW-players are better than SC2-players? Even if that is the case, what value adds the article to the community?
The whining levels of the article are comparable to the average imbalance posts, only this time you say SC2 players are underpowered compared to BW players. Because the top SC2 players are BW averages --> fails... And some top SC2 players never played BW, and some of the "above-averages" from BW aren't doing as well as some of the no-names. What's the fucking point? It's a different game. Some people are doing well, some aren't. The only "above-average" from BW is MVP. Don't say some cause there are only guys with less than 50% win average, washed up old pros and B-team trainer partners. saying "its a different game" doesn't auto prove shit - as your petty mind may think. Its a god damn pattern. Of the like 20-30 former BW players than went over They occupy top 8 out of 10. But i guess that means nothing because "its a different game" Please get your "fucking" point together before you try to make sense of it with content less statements. try again Nice try, but if you want to base it on the article in particular, it makes stretches itself when it lists the "above average" BW pros, and I'm referring to the article, here being Rainbow and Ace mentioned in the article. Their success has been middling at best. There are plenty of non-BW players who are up and coming and doing well, obviously players with previous RTS experience are going to be the first to excel in the scene, there isn't some huge clear cut pattern for BW though. In the foreign scene, some BW pros are getting beaten by players from other RTSs or even players with little RTS experience at all. Some basics carry over but it's not a 1 to 1 and there isn't even a seriously visible pattern, at the start obviously the people from BW were going to look good, but now the ones who are actually making an effort to stay relevant are staying relevant. The post actually mentions a number of successful non-BW players, but dismisses them because they don't make his point. It's kind of silly.
The article is wrong. Rainbows last game was 08. The three years up to his last game he was 20-31. He was decent way way back, but he would fall into the washed up old pros category with Boxer and Nada.
I think the Ace thing is a joke. Or by distinction he doesn't mean distinction in terms of skill. Dude, as far as I can remember, was a B-team scrub and occasional proleague appearences.
Now your making more sense.
But your proving the OPs point. If Flash come to SC2 now, it would be reasonable, that he would tear it up. A few years from now, he may not tear it up as he would now or even as quickly. THe point is, Flash and JD have general RTS skills that have been cultivated and weeded out through an intense 10 year old system. There is something about these individuals that make them good at RTS (just like now the BW scrubs are tearing it up now). This is OPs point. IF Flash came in the future its not a question of IF but WHEN (assuming SC2 just doesn't cultivate a super-Flash, if i may, by then but seems unlikely with the work ethic SC2 players current have due to team strucutring compaired to BW).
Maybe OP is bias, but this doesn't mean he doesn't have a point.
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I would love to see flash jaedong or bisu sit down and play a couple games (they can borrow my account!). After the introduction to the new units and some of the differences I think it could be scary what they would accomplish.
Also the different game thing doesn't mean much to me. Some people are just gamers through and through regardless of the game. Testie used to play bw and now plays hon professionally. Grubby switched from wc3 and is doing quite well relatively speaking. Heck even watching Nony play starjeweled on his stream was impressive to me how quick he could match all that stuff up. Torch placed podium at that cell phone game competition having not really played them before.
It will be exciting to see who switches over during the free agency period and to see how they do.
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On May 13 2011 05:08 Original exxo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:01 syllogism wrote:On May 13 2011 05:00 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 13 2011 04:57 Chill wrote:On May 13 2011 04:53 SlimeBagly wrote:
Yeah, there's nothing 'slight' about starting of your piece with a bold headline calling something a lot of people care a lot about and have worked hard for (few as hard as Chill) a "farce." Do we need to argue about the degree of belittling now? Jesus Christ this is getting to a new level of political correctness. The belittling in this thread is a farce, just wait until the S-class belittlers join in on this discussion. I can't really take this article seriously knowing there are much better writers out there not writing for TL you win
Yes he did. Yes he did
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Starcraft BW and Starcraft 2 are two different games, we can't treat it as the same. I read many posts saying that mechanics may not mean as much in SC2 as it does in SC BW, sometimes being able to make the right decisions and choose the right strategies can't be taught and perhaps the players you mentioned, NesTea and MVP and the others all just have the ability to make the right decisions in their matches, you may be right in the fact that their mechanics may not be up to par with those in SC BW, but you cannot state that there are hundreds of players out there that can easily come in and dominate. Everyone has to work hard to get to where they are, some take different paths, some may naturally have great mechanics, some may simply know when to make certain decisions.... this article was a great read but I feel you are comparing apples and oranges and trying to state that SC2 pros were all once failures in SC BW but you seem to ignore the fact that these facts are all part of history, can people not improve and become better??
Let's try to look for the positives, everyone are where they are because they worked to get there. I feel you are saying that MVP did horrible in elementary school but somehow he is a top student now... which simply doesn't make any logical sense when you compare it like that. Two different things, sure some skills translate but everyone has to work at it. will jaedong and flash or bisu come in and own it up? We don't know so why speculate, unless you are really that bored. Let's just hope perhaps one day one of them will make the switch and we will test your theory of how there are atleast 300 players in SC BW who can come in with the raw talent and tear it up. shall we?
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On May 13 2011 05:38 SovietHammer wrote:
Instead, I feel the focus of sc2 at this time is more fundamental. Instead of asking the question, "Who is better?" It is often more apt to use ask, "Who used the better strategy?" And the problem is, often we don't really know. I think the really "elephant" is that it is not truly possible to be better at starcraft 2 to the point to where to simply cannot lose to worse players, regardless if they are sent to "snipe" you or not. I don't think that just because brood war pro can play there own game at such a high level means that they will be able to overcome this.
MVP and MC have both won two GSL titles. Nestea has one and is in his 2nd this weekend. Naniwa was on a 30-something long BoX win streak. The top players have shown some degree of consistency -- I really feel like that's always being overlooked here. Obviously the game is more volatile than BW at the moment, but there's still an indication that practice and skill are paying off, and we're seeing several players regularly perform well.
As for saying that "it is not truly possible to be better at starcraft 2 to the point where you simple cannot lose to worse players" -- do you think that's true of BW, even after a decade? I haven't been following BW lately so I don't know offhand, but wasn't there a recent starleague where both Flash and Jaedong went out early? If they're the best of the best and even they lose to "worse" players, how is it fair to hold SC2 to an even higher standard?
On top of which is there ANY competitive sport in which the "better" player is always the winner? Isn't the entire point of watching sports to see who will win, because it's uncertain? I hate to use American football example, but this past year, my hometown team won unexpectedly won the championship. Were they objectively the best team last year? No. Was I absolutely thrilled that they won, did I watch their games with excitement, not caring that "better" teams were out there? You bet.
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On May 13 2011 05:45 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:41 Tarot wrote:On May 13 2011 05:39 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 05:37 DarkMatter_ wrote:On May 13 2011 05:23 Eurekastreet wrote:
Your SC1 champions, as good as they are, would have had to adapt to SC2, and nothing is there to prove the switch would have been 100% successful. Being rather new to SC2 I don't know of the old guard but the few guys I've heard about (Nada, Boxer, July) while being good at SC2 were never more impressive than some other players. It annoys me to constantly see ignorant SC2 fans make this mistake. Nada/Boxer/July were all outstanding players in BW during their prime, but since then, the game has developed much more and has gotten much more competitive, while their skill level had started to wane. By the end of their BW careers, Boxer and July were just washed up old stars. Same with Nada but to a lesser extent as he still had the occasional showing in proleague and even winning now and then. Boxer/July/Nada are in no way representative of the current best BW players. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu are in a completely different league and if washed up old pros (I hate calling them that but it's true) and crappy B-teamers can be this successful at SC2, there is little question as to whether or not Flash, Jaedong, Bisu would absolutely dominate the SC2 scene should they switch. You got stats about that, but it's easy to use stats in the way that suits you, anyone could probably turn them around to prove the opposite of your point.
Hundreds of thousands of people (millions ?) are playing starcraft, if you think people like Nestea, Mvp win two consecutive GSL out of sheer luck, you got a problem adding 1+1. They're the best at what they're doing for now, period. Dude, that's not what he's saying. He never said SC2 progamers won out of sheer luck. I highly suggest you read the article again because it seems like you're completely missing the point. The best Brood War player to go to SC2 was intotherainbow, and he kind of sucks. There's not a 1-to-1 skill differential. What...? Where did you get that idea? From the OP Show nested quote +
In any case, every player listed so far proved nothing in Brood War and are now tearing up SC2 one year later. Only two ex-BW pros have the distinction of being above average in their past careers:
(T)RainBOw, Code S, GSL silver and bronze - 116-114 (50.43%)
(P)Ace, stomped white dudes at IEM – 2-0 (100%)
Rainbow was doing better at the time of the switch then Nada/July/Boxer were doing at that same time. I'm taking OP's word for it, though.
That's a misleading statistic. It's Rainbow's career stats. He hasn't played a single televised game since 2008. 2007 if you don't count the GOM invitational games.
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TO SET THE RECORD:
The article is wrong. Rainbows last game was 08. The three years up to his last game he was 20-31.
MVP recently was in OSL ro8 before his transfer and lost 3-1 to Flash. May saw him as an up and comer and had promise.
MVP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Others>>>>>>>>>> Rainbow
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On May 13 2011 05:46 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:42 domovoi wrote:
Obvious article is obvious. Follow the money. The only thing SC2 needs to attract the highest talent level is a bigger fanbase, and that means TV contracts. But it's not a surprise Kespa would use its TV broadcasting monopoly to keep out a competitor, though thankfully that spate is over now. Apparently, you don't have the slightest idea what the Blizzard vs. kespa lawsuit is about. Please don't make rash comments about things you know nothing about.
Ironic. So are you saying the Kespa-controlled broadcast companies weren't forbidden from signing TV contracts with Blizzard? You do realize the spat between the two is more than just the copyright licensing brought up in the lawsuit?
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On May 13 2011 05:33 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:26 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 05:21 Mordiford wrote:On May 13 2011 05:18 dangots0ul wrote:On May 13 2011 05:17 Darksidius wrote:
Wow, what a douchebag-post (can't find a better word for it). What's the point exactly of this frontpage article? BW-players are better than SC2-players? Even if that is the case, what value adds the article to the community?
The whining levels of the article are comparable to the average imbalance posts, only this time you say SC2 players are underpowered compared to BW players. Because the top SC2 players are BW averages --> fails... And some top SC2 players never played BW, and some of the "above-averages" from BW aren't doing as well as some of the no-names. What's the fucking point? It's a different game. Some people are doing well, some aren't. The only "above-average" from BW is MVP. Don't say some cause there are only guys with less than 50% win average, washed up old pros and B-team trainer partners. saying "its a different game" doesn't auto prove shit - as your petty mind may think. Its a god damn pattern. Of the like 20-30 former BW players than went over They occupy top 8 out of 10. But i guess that means nothing because "its a different game" Please get your "fucking" point together before you try to make sense of it with content less statements. try again Nice try, but if you want to base it on the article in particular, it makes stretches itself when it lists the "above average" BW pros, and I'm referring to the article, here being Rainbow and Ace mentioned in the article. Their success has been middling at best. There are plenty of non-BW players who are up and coming and doing well, obviously players with previous RTS experience are going to be the first to excel in the scene, there isn't some huge clear cut pattern for BW though. In the foreign scene, some BW pros are getting beaten by players from other RTSs or even players with little RTS experience at all. Some basics carry over but it's not a 1 to 1 and there isn't even a seriously visible pattern, at the start obviously the people from BW were going to look good, but now the ones who are actually making an effort to stay relevant are staying relevant. The post actually mentions a number of successful non-BW players, but dismisses them because they don't make his point. It's kind of silly.
Thats the whole point of the article. Yes, in the foreign scene the bw pros are getting beaten by players from other RTS games. The foreign scene for broodwar was no where as near, let me repeat no where near toned as the Korean scene. Even the best foreign broodwar gamer could do nothing vs a mediocre Korean broodwar progamer. "at the start obviously the people from BW were going to look good" Thats the thing you don't realize is that the good players from BW haven't even played SC2. You're using the low-tier broodwar progamers and collectively saying well broodwar players aren't doing very well.
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On May 13 2011 05:46 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:30 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 13 2011 05:25 moopie wrote:On May 13 2011 05:23 Jyvblamo wrote:On May 13 2011 05:20 Kich wrote:
This is irrelevant but can people stop using the phrase "Have your cake and eat it too."? There is a near 1:1 of "Have Cake" to "Eat it too" ratio and the phrase is incredibly meaningless in the face of such statistics. In what country is it ok to bake someone a cake and explicitly tell them they aren't allowed to have it? No no, you can definitely bake your cake and eat it too. You just can't eat your cake and also have it. Law of conservation of matter and energy, etc. Well technically you will still possess the cake in one form or another, at least for a period of 4-6 hours. Law of bowel movements, etc. But then we come to the philosophical question of at what point does removing a grain of sand from a pile of sand make it no longer a pile? At what point along in the digestion can we conclusively say that, this is no longer cake, it's mush. Yet alas the term 'cake' is loosely defined to be a sweet food made from a mixture of flour, shortening, eggs, sugar etc (and even some of those are not mandatory). Since the initial ingredients are partly arbitrary, who's to say that once partially digested and thus missing some of the ingredients, the object is no longer fit for the definition of cake?
But part of what makes a cake a cake is the organized structure of those ingredients. Had I the culinary gumption to throw together flour, shortening, eggs, etc into a heterogeneous sludge, we would not call that a cake.
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On May 13 2011 05:45 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 05:41 Tarot wrote:On May 13 2011 05:39 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 05:37 DarkMatter_ wrote:On May 13 2011 05:23 Eurekastreet wrote:
Your SC1 champions, as good as they are, would have had to adapt to SC2, and nothing is there to prove the switch would have been 100% successful. Being rather new to SC2 I don't know of the old guard but the few guys I've heard about (Nada, Boxer, July) while being good at SC2 were never more impressive than some other players. It annoys me to constantly see ignorant SC2 fans make this mistake. Nada/Boxer/July were all outstanding players in BW during their prime, but since then, the game has developed much more and has gotten much more competitive, while their skill level had started to wane. By the end of their BW careers, Boxer and July were just washed up old stars. Same with Nada but to a lesser extent as he still had the occasional showing in proleague and even winning now and then. Boxer/July/Nada are in no way representative of the current best BW players. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu are in a completely different league and if washed up old pros (I hate calling them that but it's true) and crappy B-teamers can be this successful at SC2, there is little question as to whether or not Flash, Jaedong, Bisu would absolutely dominate the SC2 scene should they switch. You got stats about that, but it's easy to use stats in the way that suits you, anyone could probably turn them around to prove the opposite of your point.
Hundreds of thousands of people (millions ?) are playing starcraft, if you think people like Nestea, Mvp win two consecutive GSL out of sheer luck, you got a problem adding 1+1. They're the best at what they're doing for now, period. Dude, that's not what he's saying. He never said SC2 progamers won out of sheer luck. I highly suggest you read the article again because it seems like you're completely missing the point. The best Brood War player to go to SC2 was intotherainbow, and he kind of sucks. There's not a 1-to-1 skill differential. What...? Where did you get that idea? From the OP Show nested quote +
In any case, every player listed so far proved nothing in Brood War and are now tearing up SC2 one year later. Only two ex-BW pros have the distinction of being above average in their past careers:
(T)RainBOw, Code S, GSL silver and bronze - 116-114 (50.43%)
(P)Ace, stomped white dudes at IEM – 2-0 (100%)
Rainbow was doing better at the time of the switch then Nada/July/Boxer were doing at that same time. I'm taking OP's word for it, though.
I see. I can definitely understand that someone can think that when reading the OP.
MVP is most likely the best BW player that switched over. In 09, MVP beat Stork in a bo3 and his total record vs stork is 3-2 (pretty damn good). In 2010, he took one game off of Flash in a bo5 (also really impressive).
Rainbow on the other-hand hasn't played a game since 2008. MVP is definitely the better player that transfered over. Like July/Nada/Boxer, Rainbow had his time a while ago but was no where near the top in 2010.
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sc2 needs a super dominate player Its nice to talk about parody in sports, and equal skill level.
But having a really dominating team/player that people hate or love. Think about any sport it has that. it makes it better.
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EPT
