EPTAdd to that that staying a title winning player for a longer time means excelling in more different patches and metagames, something that really gets ignored a lot. All of Stats' big tournament wins came in LotV, while Zest won tournaments (even GSLs, which I still count as the biggest tournaments to win, not BlizzCon) in both expansions, and every year. Consistency matters. Innovation is called the greatest of all time by people, yet the only thing he's got on Mvp is longevity. And Zest has that on any other top Protoss bar sOs and perhaps MC, both of whom he outdoes in other areas.
Zest Fan Club - Page 244
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
Add to that that staying a title winning player for a longer time means excelling in more different patches and metagames, something that really gets ignored a lot. All of Stats' big tournament wins came in LotV, while Zest won tournaments (even GSLs, which I still count as the biggest tournaments to win, not BlizzCon) in both expansions, and every year. Consistency matters. Innovation is called the greatest of all time by people, yet the only thing he's got on Mvp is longevity. And Zest has that on any other top Protoss bar sOs and perhaps MC, both of whom he outdoes in other areas. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
As i said myself i think zest has the edge due to the korean exodus, but it seems fair to at least consider stats going forward. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
I don't see how you can put Stats above that. Overall their proleague and starleagues results are similar, but Zest had a greater peak and greater longevity. Zest has two periods of being the best player in the world by a significant margin (in different expansions even), Stats was never the best player in the world even once (well not by a huge margin at least). Rain, sOs, and MC come behind, all for different reasons. On September 03 2018 05:45 Olli wrote: sOs hasn't won a single Korean tournament. He has, in fact it was one of the most hilariously one-sided finals probably ever. | ||
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Rodya
546 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
Their other results are almost identical, both won IEM Katowice, Zest has 2 korean weekender wins and 1 GSL final loss; sOs has 1 korean weekender win and 2 GSL final losses. Also both have one "smaller" weekender win (HSC for Zest, MSI Masters for sOs). If you add ro4 GSL appearances it's 3 to 2 in favor of sOs so not much of a difference either. Unless you can convince me that GSL is 100% without a doubt more worth than a Blizzcon win then sOs and Zest are neck and neck for me. I can see arguments for both tournaments to be rated higher. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Zest has won premier events in more than one expansion. He's had long periods of dominance being the best player in the world. sOs never has, he tends to have isolated miracle runs for the most part. I don't think there's ever been a time sOs has been considered the best player in the world. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
Also don't forget sOs was the best Proleague player in SC2, with the most wins and the best winrate.  Proleague | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
Plus your reasoning relies entirely on results, even though they're not the be all end all measurement of skill. Consistency, peak performance, duration of peak performance, etc. are all factors that should be taken into account as well. | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On September 04 2018 04:31 Charoisaur wrote: are periods of dominance more worth than isolated miracle runs when the overall accomplishments end up being the same? Yes? Not sure how to argue otherwise. One person was better most of the time in that scenario. Staying on top, as most pro competitors in any game or sport will tell you, is also much harder than sporadically winning. | ||
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NinjaToss
Austria1383 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
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NinjaToss
Austria1383 Posts
But like people tend to look at Mvp's winrate against NesTea, or the TBLS' winrate against each other so Zest's winrate against sOs should be interesting to look at, especially since it's so one-sided for Zest. Gosh I miss Elentos and Silvana in this thread tho. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 04 2018 04:32 Olli wrote: Yes? Not sure how to argue otherwise. One person was better most of the time in that scenario. Staying on top, as most pro competitors in any game or sport will tell you, is also much harder than sporadically winning. I don't quite get it, in some cases you argue for the more spread out results because it implies consistence (zest compared to stats) while in others the results which are more clustered imply bigger dominance and are favored (compared to sOs; note that i didn't fact check if the overall results are the same btw, assume it is true because noone argued against it) You cannot have it both ways. If the overall results are the same it imo does not matter if they are more clustered or more spread out, as i mentioned before one can make both instances look superior/inferior. | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On September 04 2018 05:20 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't quite get it, in some cases you argue for the more spread out results because it implies consistence (zest compared to stats) while in others the results which are more clustered imply bigger dominance and are favored (compared to sOs; note that i didn't fact check if the overall results are the same btw, assume it is true because noone argued against it) You cannot have it both ways. If the overall results are the same it imo does not matter if they are more clustered or more spread out, as i mentioned before one can make both instances look superior/inferior. Dominance is not a clustered amount of results. Dominance is Zest's 2014 - a prolonged stretch of time during which a player outperforms everyone else. Besides, it's not like sOs ever really assembles a bunch of tournament wins in a row. He's mostly meh all year, then wins a huge tournament and fades away again. That's not dominance. What you're talking about is more peak performance, something like Dear's end to 2013 with a few great results in a row. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
I don't think there is a good reason to prefer one over the other, which is why i would rather just look at the success overall and not care too much if it was spread out or not. (i am not saying one cannot make it a point of interest, but putting a huge emphasis on it seems misplaced) | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On September 04 2018 04:31 Charoisaur wrote: Also don't forget sOs was the best Proleague player in SC2, with the most wins and the best winrate. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Proleague To clarify, that page is dumb and for whatever reason doesn't include post-season results. Maru overtakes sOs as far as winrate goes if you include that. sOs technically has more wins but only because he played in 2013, Maru had more than him in every year he played (2014/15/16), and has a greater average wins per season if I remember correctly. sOs's proleague winrate is still disgusting and certainly noteworthy however. Same goes for Stats and Zest. | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
On September 04 2018 04:41 NinjaToss wrote: Well yeah, considering Zest's horribad losing streak against Impact. But like people tend to look at Mvp's winrate against NesTea, or the TBLS' winrate against each other so Zest's winrate against sOs should be interesting to look at, especially since it's so one-sided for Zest. Gosh I miss Elentos and Silvana in this thread tho. I’m here! 🙋♀️ Posted above why I also think Zest > sOs. Although sOs is my favourite player to watch. I wish I had more time to watch and pay attention and actually comment on current playstyles and results...  | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
Just won Olimoleague August Finals. 2-0 Cure, 3-0 Trap, 4-2 GuMiho. Two good PvT wins, hopefully a sign of things to come. | ||
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