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Austria24422 Posts
On September 19 2017 01:28 pvsnp wrote:
Tfw you beat the best player in the world but lose twice to foreign Zergs.
To be fair, Zest was helping Inno recently so I assume he knows Inno's style. Also Inno's gg timing in game 3 was really early, maybe he just didn't care.
He had a prism in his base with 3 stalkers and a sentry and 3 warpins ready to go while he himself was still on 1 rax and years away from stim. He was pretty dead. I hope close by air gets removed from that map.
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Yeah let's remove anything which isn't super standard zzZzzZzz
Maybe players should adapt and if that is not reasonably possible because the game doesn't allow it then the game is simply bad
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On September 19 2017 01:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Yeah let's remove anything which isn't super standard zzZzzZzz
Maybe players should adapt and if that is not reasonably possible because the game doesn't allow it then the game is simply bad
While some variation/adaptation is important, there are maps that are simply poorly designed. Snute was talking/ranting about the maps in this tourney's thread.
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Austria24422 Posts
I'm not against a bit of experimentation, but we've tried close by air in every expansion and it's always been terrible.
In general I like maps that allow players to dictate how they want to approach the game, not maps forcing them to play a certain way.
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On September 19 2017 01:44 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2017 01:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Yeah let's remove anything which isn't super standard zzZzzZzz
Maybe players should adapt and if that is not reasonably possible because the game doesn't allow it then the game is simply bad While some variation/adaptation is important, there are maps that are simply poorly designed. Snute was talking/ranting about the maps in this tourney's thread.
Yeah i am not shocked that a pro player dislikes maps where he has to play a different style for once.
On September 19 2017 01:45 Olli wrote:
I'm not against a bit of experimentation, but we've tried close by air in every expansion and it's always been terrible.
In general I like maps that allow players to dictate how they want to approach the game, not maps forcing them to play a certain way.
See i think most maps should be like that. But at the same time i think having one or two maps which require players to think outside the box are really fun. On these maps an own meta could develop in theory.
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On September 19 2017 01:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Yeah let's remove anything which isn't super standard zzZzzZzz
Maybe players should adapt and if that is not reasonably possible because the game doesn't allow it then the game is simply bad
I never liked these comments. I'm all for variation that makes players adapt. but bad design is bad design. I like the New Gettysberg use of air blockers and the bridge for example, I liked habitation station's use of gold bases in between spawns etc.
I mean did you think Dasan Station was good because it made players play differently? It was still painful to see people win so easily with proxies and queen drop rushes
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On September 19 2017 02:04 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2017 01:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Yeah let's remove anything which isn't super standard zzZzzZzz
Maybe players should adapt and if that is not reasonably possible because the game doesn't allow it then the game is simply bad I never liked these comments. I'm all for variation that makes players adapt. but bad design is bad design. I like the New Gettysberg use of air blockers and the bridge for example, I liked habitation station's use of gold bases in between spawns etc. I mean did you think Dasan Station was good because it made players play differently? It was still painful to see people win so easily with proxies and queen drop rushes
Fear not, we have Arch of Janus now!
.......fuck
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On September 19 2017 01:32 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2017 01:28 pvsnp wrote:
Tfw you beat the best player in the world but lose twice to foreign Zergs.
To be fair, Zest was helping Inno recently so I assume he knows Inno's style. Also Inno's gg timing in game 3 was really early, maybe he just didn't care. He had a prism in his base with 3 stalkers and a sentry and 3 warpins ready to go while he himself was still on 1 rax and years away from stim. He was pretty dead. I hope close by air gets removed from that map.
I saw the prism, but Inno did have a medivac (with marines) right behind the prism plus some more about to pop. He was in a rough spot to be sure, but if he just pulled some scvs and boosted around he could drop and (maybe?) push Zest away without crippling losses.
At the very least I would expect him to try it before typing out. That's why I was wondering if he was just like "fuck it I'm already in first so imma just gg instead of trying for a questionable hold and playing from behind."
And of course there was what some previous poster said, where Inno thanked Zest right at the beginning of their series for helping him win GSL. Squabbling over a map that doesn't matter for you, against the guy who just helped make you the GSL champion, when that guy has already been knocked out of this tournament.......would just be a dick move.
Given all that, I don't find it implausible that Inno gg'd out before exhausting all his choices.
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On September 19 2017 02:04 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2017 01:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Yeah let's remove anything which isn't super standard zzZzzZzz
Maybe players should adapt and if that is not reasonably possible because the game doesn't allow it then the game is simply bad I never liked these comments. I'm all for variation that makes players adapt. but bad design is bad design. I like the New Gettysberg use of air blockers and the bridge for example, I liked habitation station's use of gold bases in between spawns etc. I mean did you think Dasan Station was good because it made players play differently? It was still painful to see people win so easily with proxies and queen drop rushes
I actually think when you have to be exremely restricted with mapmaking because it's always too easy to absue certain stuff then it's the fault of the game and i think that's bad.
In the context of sc2 dasan station maybe wasn't a good map, sure. But yes i think having maps where an own meta could develop (even if it isn't a macro one) would be totally fine and maybe even desirable.
As long as we have a good mix of maps, 99% being standard is bad in my opinion. While you can play differently on them a lot of the games still look more or less the same. Spicing it up through maps seems like a good idea.
Though people are also against gameplay changes each year to mix it up, i would assume that these are the same people who would also not like "unique" maps. Personally i like to experiment outside the box here and there. Proplayers in general obviously would rather perfect their standard build and every map which goes against that is disliked rather quickly. You cannot please everybody.
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I love maps that experiment a bit, but the key part is "a bit". Don't be adding a thousands things at once, the games will end up as clusterfucks and put people of any future map variation. Remember when you're experimenting with something, you should keep everything the same apart from a specific variable you want to change
e.g. add a close gold base, or a bridge between spawns, or short deadspace between mains etc. If you overdo it, odds are at least something will be game breaking. And it will take longer for people to figure out a proper meta
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On September 19 2017 09:25 Fango wrote:
I love maps that experiment a bit, but the key part is "a bit". Don't be adding a thousands things at once, the games will end up as clusterfucks and put people of any future map variation. Remember when you're experimenting with something, you should keep everything the same apart from a specific variable you want to change
e.g. add a close gold base, or a bridge between spawns, or short deadspace between mains etc. If you overdo it, odds are at least something will be game breaking. And it will take longer for people to figure out a proper meta
Sure that is reasonable i guess. Though i am not certain that it's literally only one change from the norm which is acceptable  But your main point is good, sure.
But yeah this isn't the place for mapmaking discussion, sorry i basically started it 
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Because judging someone's performance in a cross server online event on brand new maps is pointless. I couldn't care if he went 9-0 or 0-9 it doesn't mean anything
What else do we judge him on lately? His problem was supposed to be with lands tournaments. Online is supposed to be his strength. So judge him on the losses to Scarlet and Time in the GSL qualifiers? That 1-8 record in SSL? I'm noticing a pattern here. Not a good pattern either.
For a piece of crap waste of time event there sure are a lot of elite players involved in this.
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On September 19 2017 21:54 Rolltide wrote:Show nested quote +Because judging someone's performance in a cross server online event on brand new maps is pointless. I couldn't care if he went 9-0 or 0-9 it doesn't mean anything What else do we judge him on lately? His problem was supposed to be with lands tournaments. Online is supposed to be his strength. So judge him on the losses to Scarlet and Time in the GSL qualifiers? That 1-8 record in SSL? I'm noticing a pattern here. Not a good pattern either. For a piece of crap waste of time event there sure are a lot of elite players involved in this.
Well I mean, Zest and Byun showed up an hour late, and Inno didn't bother showing up at all.......so that should give you some inkling of how important this event is to the elite players
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Well I mean, Zest and Byun showed up an hour late, and Inno didn't bother showing up at all.......so that should give you some inkling of how important this event is to the elite players
What do you mean Inno did not show up he played his 9 maps yesterday? He doesn't play again until the next round.
What I would like to see is Zest playing great winning 2/3 of his maps and people saying it doesn't mean much instead of using that as an excuse for poor play yet again. .
Small online events like this should mean more to him he is the one who had a shitty year and could use the money.
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On September 19 2017 21:54 Rolltide wrote:Show nested quote +Because judging someone's performance in a cross server online event on brand new maps is pointless. I couldn't care if he went 9-0 or 0-9 it doesn't mean anything What else do we judge him on lately? His problem was supposed to be with lands tournaments. Online is supposed to be his strength. So judge him on the losses to Scarlet and Time in the GSL qualifiers? That 1-8 record in SSL? I'm noticing a pattern here. Not a good pattern either. For a piece of crap waste of time event there sure are a lot of elite players involved in this.
You judge him based on his most recent offline results, then any serious (same server) online results, then ladder rankings n stuff
Cross server online matches (especially on new maps) are far too different from a regular tournament to have any merit. Even Zest at his peak (when he won gsl) was losing 0-3 to Snute online when playing from different regions
Yes he's good online right now, but cross server is a big factor. Elite players will always play in these events because there's money involved. But more often than not they perform badly (see TY)
I mean he just beat gumiho 2-0, and solar 2-1 to qualify for ST2. And Inno and TY have said he's the man to play with to get good vs protoss (both of them credited their TvP wins in GSL to practicing with Zest)
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On September 20 2017 02:23 Rolltide wrote:Show nested quote +Well I mean, Zest and Byun showed up an hour late, and Inno didn't bother showing up at all.......so that should give you some inkling of how important this event is to the elite players What do you mean Inno did not show up he played his 9 maps yesterday? He doesn't play again until the next round. What I would like to see is Zest playing great winning 2/3 of his maps and people saying it doesn't mean much instead of using that as an excuse for poor play yet again. . Small online events like this should mean more to him he is the one who had a shitty year and could use the money.
Oh my bad I thought you were talking about a different tourney.
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On September 19 2017 01:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2017 01:44 pvsnp wrote:On September 19 2017 01:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Yeah let's remove anything which isn't super standard zzZzzZzz
Maybe players should adapt and if that is not reasonably possible because the game doesn't allow it then the game is simply bad While some variation/adaptation is important, there are maps that are simply poorly designed. Snute was talking/ranting about the maps in this tourney's thread. Yeah i am not shocked that a pro player dislikes maps where he has to play a different style for once. Show nested quote +On September 19 2017 01:45 Olli wrote:
I'm not against a bit of experimentation, but we've tried close by air in every expansion and it's always been terrible.
In general I like maps that allow players to dictate how they want to approach the game, not maps forcing them to play a certain way. See i think most maps should be like that. But at the same time i think having one or two maps which require players to think outside the box are really fun. On these maps an own meta could develop in theory.
I like the idea of having 1-2 weird maps in the pool but on the other hand I don't want to see another finals getting decided on a map like Secret Spring.
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I mean he just beat gumiho 2-0, and solar 2-1 to qualify for ST2. And Inno and TY have said he's the man to play with to get good vs protoss (both of them credited their TvP wins in GSL to practicing with Zest)
Don't leave out his 2-0 win over Rushcrazy.... lol.
Zest does have some winnable opportunities in that tournament. He can beat Hero and he would have a good chance vs the winner of Ryung vs sOs. I like him vs these other Protoss players.
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I like the idea of having 1-2 weird maps in the pool but on the other hand I don't want to see another finals getting decided on a map like Secret Spring.
That's why map vetos are important. A lot of tournaments only have 7 maps so for the final there is no veto opportunities.
Off topic alert Thumbs up to a Wolf announcer pack. A Wolf/Rapid pack would be a real kick in the groin to Valdez so I'm against that.
Wolf has always been one of my favorite casters and because he speaks Korean well they need to try and get him for Homestory.
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Austria24422 Posts
Zest has 3 accounts in the top 15 of KR GM again: #4, #7, #14. Seems he took a bit of time off, but looks in very good shape again.
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EPT
