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Personal attacks in this thread will draw a temp ban. |
On April 14 2011 04:58 ABOOMAN wrote:
P telling zergs how to play is getting really tilting. "Get creative, use nydus, harass at 5 different places, mass overseers to delay colosus".
I wish the role would be reversed so we zerg players could say "well, you cant win vs Z by playing standard, you have to use 5 warp prism high templar storm harass, 3 of them being fake hallucinations of course. Also, not enough motherships, try to get fast mothership its actually SO good. Multi prong attacks with carriers are also essential to beat a zerg"
HahAhahaha
Oh my, I lol'ed hard thinking about Protoss having to do that to actually have a chance to win a game.
Fake templars and multi prone carriers xDDD
//tx
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On April 14 2011 04:38 Biigfoot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 04:23 Serpico wrote:On April 14 2011 04:20 zasda wrote:On April 13 2011 18:47 Mailing wrote:On April 13 2011 14:39 Proko wrote:
IdrA getting called out by Geoff and Tyler. I thought it was appropriate too. IdrA is the one great hope right now for American SC2 players. We need him to get his mental game straight!
Edit: Grammar called out for what? doing what he fucking wants to? he 6pooled. If he wanted to lose, that's none of their buisness, but thinking he wanted to not get $15,000 is retarded. I don't see why Tyler especially should care, the worse off idra is about PvZ the most chance he has to win, right? Winning seems to be the only thing that matters to the top players, spouting that dumb "play to win" line every chance they possibly get. go back to WWE if you don't like real sport mindsets kiddo whats a "real" sports mindset? A real sports mindset is to win. A real sports competitor values winning over everything else. That's why idiots in other sports who sign with shitty teams for tons of money are looked down on by the sports communities.
That's ridiculous. They are playing to win, though. It's just that they value life as the more important game than whatever sport they're playing. Regardless of how much people mindlessly call out "play to win", there are factors to consider outside of the game, no? Life is the all-encompassing game, so it seems natural to expect people to play to "win" in life, under whatever terms they've defined winning as.
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On April 14 2011 05:14 Tschis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 04:58 ABOOMAN wrote:
P telling zergs how to play is getting really tilting. "Get creative, use nydus, harass at 5 different places, mass overseers to delay colosus".
I wish the role would be reversed so we zerg players could say "well, you cant win vs Z by playing standard, you have to use 5 warp prism high templar storm harass, 3 of them being fake hallucinations of course. Also, not enough motherships, try to get fast mothership its actually SO good. Multi prong attacks with carriers are also essential to beat a zerg" HahAhahaha Oh my, I lol'ed hard thinking about Protoss having to do that to actually have a chance to win a game. Fake templars and multi prone carriers xDDD //tx
You can put hallucinations in warp prisms? O.O
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On April 14 2011 05:18 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 05:14 Tschis wrote:On April 14 2011 04:58 ABOOMAN wrote:
P telling zergs how to play is getting really tilting. "Get creative, use nydus, harass at 5 different places, mass overseers to delay colosus".
I wish the role would be reversed so we zerg players could say "well, you cant win vs Z by playing standard, you have to use 5 warp prism high templar storm harass, 3 of them being fake hallucinations of course. Also, not enough motherships, try to get fast mothership its actually SO good. Multi prong attacks with carriers are also essential to beat a zerg" HahAhahaha Oh my, I lol'ed hard thinking about Protoss having to do that to actually have a chance to win a game. Fake templars and multi prone carriers xDDD //tx You can put hallucinations in warp prisms? O.O
Hey I don't know, but you could put landed vikings inside medivacs! Wouldn't be surprised if you could xD
//tx
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On April 14 2011 04:58 ABOOMAN wrote:
P telling zergs how to play is getting really tilting. "Get creative, use nydus, harass at 5 different places, mass overseers to delay colosus".
I wish the role would be reversed so we zerg players could say "well, you cant win vs Z by playing standard, you have to use 5 warp prism high templar storm harass, 3 of them being fake hallucinations of course. Also, not enough motherships, try to get fast mothership its actually SO good. Multi prong attacks with carriers are also essential to beat a zerg" Perfectly good point even though it's slightly exaggerated, there are so many things that Protoss can do but doesn't.
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On April 14 2011 04:58 ABOOMAN wrote:
P telling zergs how to play is getting really tilting. "Get creative, use nydus, harass at 5 different places, mass overseers to delay colosus".
I wish the role would be reversed so we zerg players could say "well, you cant win vs Z by playing standard, you have to use 5 warp prism high templar storm harass, 3 of them being fake hallucinations of course. Also, not enough motherships, try to get fast mothership its actually SO good. Multi prong attacks with carriers are also essential to beat a zerg"
Yea, I really wish people would stop talking about nydus worm. Yes, I think it could be used, and I think it's underused. But it's not the be-all magic solution to things. Nydus IMO is heavily dependent on map, and most of the maps it's really not going to help that much midgame unless you do it in the cheesy way.
I think it's true to some extent though. If you can't win in a fair fight, then don't play fair. Harassment and constant attacking is necessary and how the game has to be played.
Zerg ARE trying tons of things. Protoss are to some extent, and that's nice to see. Terran still seems to be stuck in a rut though.
I think Zerg is UP, but I wouldn't really say any of their units is ineffective (except maybe Hydra). I think we just need a unit that can control space. I don't expect any good solutions until the expansion comes out.
Though now Infestors look like the solution to literally everything. Which is a bit strange.
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On April 14 2011 05:32 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 04:58 ABOOMAN wrote:
P telling zergs how to play is getting really tilting. "Get creative, use nydus, harass at 5 different places, mass overseers to delay colosus".
I wish the role would be reversed so we zerg players could say "well, you cant win vs Z by playing standard, you have to use 5 warp prism high templar storm harass, 3 of them being fake hallucinations of course. Also, not enough motherships, try to get fast mothership its actually SO good. Multi prong attacks with carriers are also essential to beat a zerg" Yea, I really wish people would stop talking about nydus worm. Yes, I think it could be used, and I think it's underused. But it's not the be-all magic solution to things. Nydus IMO is heavily dependent on map, and most of the maps it's really not going to help that much midgame unless you do it in the cheesy way. I think it's true to some extent though. If you can't win in a fair fight, then don't play fair. Harassment and constant attacking is necessary and how the game has to be played. Zerg ARE trying tons of things. Protoss are to some extent, and that's nice to see. Terran still seems to be stuck in a rut though. I think Zerg is UP, but I wouldn't really say any of their units is ineffective (except maybe Hydra). I think we just need a unit that can control space. I don't expect any good solutions until the expansion comes out. Though now Infestors look like the solution to literally everything. Which is a bit strange.
Zerg needs a supply efficient unit that isnt blocked by zerglings or killed by 7 blink stalkers.
Anyone know what is the next tournament Idra is playing in (other then NASL)?
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I can't accept the fact that Idra 6 Pooled and gave up so early vs MC, but then again, he probably just wanted to end it 
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It probably does, but I think scouting needs to be fixed first. The most reactionary race having the hardest early game scouting seems broken.
A siege/space controlling unit would be good as well, I think broodlords should have an upgrade that adds some kind of splash to either dying broodlings or their initial damage. I think queens should be be able to autoheal units if they lose a certain amount of hp, that way you could bring queens with your broodlords or ultralisks and they'd survive more than 0.2 seconds.
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On April 14 2011 05:50 OrchidThief wrote:
It probably does, but I think scouting needs to be fixed first. The most reactionary race having the hardest early game scouting seems broken.
A siege/space controlling unit would be good as well, I think broodlords should have an upgrade that adds some kind of splash to either dying broodlings or their initial damage. I think queens should be be able to autoheal units if they lose a certain amount of hp, that way you could bring queens with your broodlords or ultralisks and they'd survive more than 0.2 seconds.
Brood Lords are totally fine. They are pretty devastating units already.
Queen Transfuse isn't that hard, it just requires practice. Try it out, lose some games, you'll get better at it. Usually the issue is that queens are slow so it can be difficult to use with Ultras (and brood lords usually abuse cliffs and such because they fly). Autoheal is not necessary IMO.
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I am really disappointed in Idra 6-pooling that 2nd game after such an amazing 1st game. It's one thing when I see him give up or BM when laddering, and another in a tournament setting. ESPECIALLY after playing so well in the 1st game (and only making 1 big blunder at the end)!
Seeing players like Sheth,Spanishiwa, and even Destiny play ZvP really opens my eyes to the potentials of infestors, banelings (Sheth has the sickest bane drops), nydus worms, mass queens, overseer contaminates, and ultralisks. I really want to see Idra expand his unit mixture and tactics. His drops in game 2 against Cruncher made for an amazing game! If only he kept that up! He also makes so little usage out of some other units (see above).
With all that said, I do agree with one thing about "balance" - the mechanics and precision required for winning against solid players in some situations is by far more difficult than other races against Zerg. It doesn't mean Zerg is vastly underpowered or other races are vastly overpowered. It's more like the Zerg race is meant to be played in a smart tactical fashion, which requires precise decision making and execution. In those cases, though it surely is more difficult to play, the fault still ends up on the player.
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I think idra is one of the closest to really showing how zvp should be played. He has on multiple occasions showcased some of the sickest ideas: zerg/baneling, hydra drops, burrowed roach, etc. His two hatch fast roach burrow build is so delicately timed, its virtually impervious to any sort of 4/5/6 gate timing attack. Like Tyler said on SoTG, I think idra is just missing figuring out one more part of zvp which will bring his whole game together. If he does figure it out I don't think any protoss in the world can take him. Especially since he can already take MC to the late game after coming back from a deficit.
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On April 14 2011 05:59 EscPlan9 wrote:
I am really disappointed in Idra 6-pooling that 2nd game after such an amazing 1st game. It's one thing when I see him give up or BM when laddering, and another in a tournament setting. ESPECIALLY after playing so well in the 1st game (and only making 1 big blunder at the end)!
Seeing players like Sheth,Spanishiwa, and even Destiny play ZvP really opens my eyes to the potentials of infestors, banelings (Sheth has the sickest bane drops), nydus worms, mass queens, overseer contaminates, and ultralisks. I really want to see Idra expand his unit mixture and tactics. His drops in game 2 against Cruncher made for an amazing game! If only he kept that up! He also makes so little usage out of some other units (see above).
With all that said, I do agree with one thing about "balance" - the mechanics and precision required for winning against solid players in some situations is by far more difficult than other races against Zerg. It doesn't mean Zerg is vastly underpowered or other races are vastly overpowered. It's more like the Zerg race is meant to be played in a smart tactical fashion, which requires precise decision making and execution. In those cases, though it surely is more difficult to play, the fault still ends up on the player.
I mean, he makes good use of all the units except perhaps Ultralisks and Mutalisks.. Zerg doesn't have that many units. Zerglings and Banelings he uses, Roaches and Hydras he uses, Corruptors and brood lords he uses... he uses Infestors when he can (though perhaps not quite enough).
I liked Nony's point in the recent SotG though - if zerg has a maxed army and is banking 4k/2k, you really can't make the argument that nyduses are too expensive... :/
Honestly, I feel like the solution is to do something along the lines of what Day9 says, getting a bunch of bases for gas only - all standard ZvP units take gas and most are gas-heavy, and with the recent patch it's pretty hard to have too many infestors. The missing piece they were talking about is how to actually get those bases safely and early enough that it matters imo, and perhaps some aggressive play can buy time for that, such as drops or nydus... ? I don't know, but I'm sure if anyone figures it out it'll be him :D We've all got your back IdrA.
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I don't understand why everyone is talking down on IdrA like he's some retarded kid.
IdrAs decision to 6 pool vs MC was quite logical to me. He tried a macro game vs MC. He had a huge advantage and his army just died in 3 seconds. What makes anyone think that beating a Protoss on MCs level as Zerg in a macro game is more likely than winning with a rush?
Please stop with this amateur psychology 'eye of the tiger' bullshit.
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On April 14 2011 06:16 Philosophy wrote:
I don't understand why everyone is talking down on IdrA like he's some retarded kid.
IdrAs decision to 6 pool vs MC was quite logical to me. He tried a macro game vs MC. He had a huge advantage and his army just died in 3 seconds. What makes anyone think that beating a Protoss on MCs level as Zerg in a macro game is more likely than winning with a rush?
Please stop with this amateur psychology 'eye of the tiger' bullshit.
How often do you think MC loses to a 6 pool? Come on. Add to this that the only times Idra 6 pools someone is when he
a) Doesn't want to play them
b) Doesn't respect them
Idra had an ADVANTAGE in the macro game, like you said. Do you know how many players would love to have an ADVANTAGE against MC? Idra did, just didn't close out the game. He has the skills to pull ahead with an advantage and close out the game for sure. So... keep trying. I'm not saying it's easy to do what Idra does - but I will never accept his defeatist attitude in that game as something to respect him for.
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On April 14 2011 06:24 EscPlan9 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 06:16 Philosophy wrote:
I don't understand why everyone is talking down on IdrA like he's some retarded kid.
IdrAs decision to 6 pool vs MC was quite logical to me. He tried a macro game vs MC. He had a huge advantage and his army just died in 3 seconds. What makes anyone think that beating a Protoss on MCs level as Zerg in a macro game is more likely than winning with a rush?
Please stop with this amateur psychology 'eye of the tiger' bullshit. How often do you think MC loses to a 6 pool? Come on.
How often did MC lose macro games vs zerg? The only Zerg I recall winning a BO3+ vs MC was check...with 2 rushes.
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On April 14 2011 06:24 EscPlan9 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 06:16 Philosophy wrote:
I don't understand why everyone is talking down on IdrA like he's some retarded kid.
IdrAs decision to 6 pool vs MC was quite logical to me. He tried a macro game vs MC. He had a huge advantage and his army just died in 3 seconds. What makes anyone think that beating a Protoss on MCs level as Zerg in a macro game is more likely than winning with a rush?
Please stop with this amateur psychology 'eye of the tiger' bullshit. How often do you think MC loses to a 6 pool? Come on. Add to this that the only times Idra 6 pools someone is when he a) Doesn't want to play them b) Doesn't respect them Idra had an ADVANTAGE in the macro game, like you said. Do you know how many players would love to have an ADVANTAGE against MC? Idra did, just didn't close out the game. He has the skills to pull ahead with an advantage and close out the game for sure. So... keep trying. I'm not saying it's easy to do what Idra does - but I will never accept his defeatist attitude in that game as something to respect him for.
Playing a ZvP as long as he did against as successful a player as MC has got to be draining, I doubt he could have done it twice after and still play at the same level as the first game.
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I think people are overplaying the tilt thing. It's not like he's some ladder hero playing his first tournament being nervous as all hell, pretty sure he has his nerves under control by now, I think it's more a "Game is broken, eff it, cba" -- 6 pool.
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On April 14 2011 04:58 ABOOMAN wrote:
P telling zergs how to play is getting really tilting. "Get creative, use nydus, harass at 5 different places, mass overseers to delay colosus".
I wish the role would be reversed so we zerg players could say "well, you cant win vs Z by playing standard, you have to use 5 warp prism high templar storm harass, 3 of them being fake hallucinations of course. Also, not enough motherships, try to get fast mothership its actually SO good. Multi prong attacks with carriers are also essential to beat a zerg"
I understand and agree with this guy.
It is not that things are imbalanced per se.
But a build that a Gold Protoss can do with 50 APM is only countered by Grand Master Zergs with 300 APM.
I think effort should be rewarded equally. And I KNOW this was NOT the case in BW. Terran was a bit more difficult and micro intensive and stuff. But I don't think it was no where near what we have here.
EDIT: Before someone comes and tries to be funny, I AM exaggerating a bit to make my point across.
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The 6 pool really was just 'giving up' thou it seems. I can't see it ever working on Xel Naga Caverns against the best P in the world.
A roach rush / fake expansion or something, would atleast stand a better chance of catching MC of guard.
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EPT
