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Mitchlew
Australia428 Posts
On April 14 2011 12:57 mentallyafk wrote: cruncher vs darkforce kinda proves idra's point about protoss deathball If it was so good how come every protoss doesn't use it. How come NASL day 1 no protoss took a set? | ||
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mentallyafk
139 Posts
On April 14 2011 13:03 Mitchlew wrote: If it was so good how come every protoss doesn't use it. How come NASL day 1 no protoss took a set? 1. i have no idea why every protoss doesn't use it. 2. they lost because they didn't | ||
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Mitchlew
Australia428 Posts
On April 14 2011 13:06 mentallyafk wrote: 1. i have no idea why every protoss doesn't use it. 2. they lost because they didn't I will just listen to the progamers and expeerts opinion. This excludes idra because according to incontrol tyler and day9 the imbalance is all in his head and he loses before he starts. Protoss is not OP. Lets look at artosis, he is having a terrible time as protoss than he was with zerg, grass is always greener on the other side. gg | ||
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theqat
United States2856 Posts
It's getting very clear that you can't just sit back and let the Protoss do this stuff. Do Idra's Tunneling Claws rush or do a similar build into a big drop, then rally reinforcements to their natural. The mentality that Zerg is supposed to be the sit-back-and-macro race is steering everyone the wrong way. I still think PvZ has some big issues--there's no reason for there to be huge engagements in this game where one side is at 5% efficiency for reasons not particularly related to micro or skill--but letting the Protoss get to 200 pretty much unharrassed is really silly | ||
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GP
United States1056 Posts
On April 14 2011 12:57 mentallyafk wrote: cruncher vs darkforce kinda proves idra's point about protoss deathball No it doesn't. All it proves is Darkforce played really poorly. The first game Darkforce would have wrecked Cruncher if he didn't throw away his ground army dancing behind forcefields. The second game he passively sat on a 200 food army and let Cruncher max with zero pressure. And that's ignoring his abysmal infestor control during major confrontations. Look at Mondragon/ZeeRax, go look at Sheth/Artosis, for christ sakes go look at Idra's own games against White-Ra at IEM. You can't expect a 200 food army to take on a 200 food Protoss army head on. You need to aggressively trade armies before Protoss maxes and expand, you can't sit there on your butt and let a Protoss max. Zergs are really close to solving this issue, and with the fungal buff I think that it won't be long before Protoss are afraid to try and passively sit back with only a few ground units and try to max out on void rays and collosus. | ||
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CapnCDaWg
United States179 Posts
 Edit: Oooohhh, his last game he was actually using zerg and from the scoreboard it looks like he totally dominated the newly recruited sixjaxTerran  | ||
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Starlos
Canada191 Posts
On April 14 2011 04:38 Biigfoot wrote: A real sports mindset is to win. A real sports competitor values winning over everything else. That's why idiots in other sports who sign with shitty teams for tons of money are looked down on by the sports communities. What a worthless answer it is ! I'm just stunned by how lame (to not use another word) it is. 1- Mentioning that there is a "real" mindset (not even talking about good/bad, just "real") is ridiculous to begin with. 2- Saying that the "real" sport mindset is to win (over EVERYTHING ELSE) would mean that if YOU CAN CHEAT, THEN DO SO. <--- most people would consider that as a very bad sportsmanship mindset 3- Realistically, there's a high chance that you won't win when you play a sport (at the very least in a tournament with many many people). The essential should be to do your best (over winning at all cost). | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
IMO things like colossi dont need nerfs, the ability for zerg to put on pressure needs to be buffed or just explored further. | ||
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ComTrav
United States1093 Posts
On April 14 2011 11:56 whiterabbit wrote: looks like Idra has been streaming.....*sunglasses* something other than Starcraft. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh! http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/gpl6q/looks_like_idra_has_been_streamingsunglasses/ ROFL! :D Am I the only one who found it funnier that he had the "random pics" TeamLiquid thread? | ||
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Starlos
Canada191 Posts
On April 14 2011 15:05 Heavenly wrote: Where did the idea that zergs are the passive macro race even come from? Because your hatcheries are cheaper and you can make drones fast? Since IdrA says the tier 3 is garbage, why would you want to be in a late game scenario when you've maxed out quickly on mid-tier units then have to confront an equal supply, but much more costly protoss deathball? Isn't the description of zerg basically the "swarm" where you have tons of cheap units that you send in waves to whittle down your opponents? Isn't the description of protoss a race with very expensive "heavy hitter" units? So where did this pure passivity mindset even come from? That seems to be why people like Incontrol and Tyler criticize zergs for their complaints against protoss and say to look for more creative methods to win. Why would a protoss deathball of high tech 300/200 colossi, 250/150 voidrays, and 125/50 stalkers not defeat a largely 75/25 roach and 100/50 hydra army with 150/100 corruptor support? IMO things like colossi dont need nerfs, the ability for zerg to put on pressure needs to be buffed or just explored further. How would you win ? Because early/mid game it's not like Zerg was stronger than protoss to begin with. Except if the toss does something very silly he's usually safe until he gets his deathball. | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On April 14 2011 15:11 Starlos wrote: How would you win ? Because early/mid game it's not like Zerg was stronger than protoss to begin with. Except if the toss does something very silly he's usually safe until he gets his deathball. Passively maxing out on roaches with 80 drones then floating 3000/1500 so that your reinforcements trickle in 4 at a time to attack the protoss deathball at your base apparently isn't the way to do it. I like IdrA's tunneling claw push to snipe sentries. I also think ultra/baneling combos haven't been explored very well at all, a huge complaint is being unable to engage due to forcefields. You're okay against things like 6 gate, protoss can do a ring of forcefields around themselves, but you can back off until they wear off and then those sentries are a huge waste. Zealots and sentries are destroyed by banelings and lings destroy stalkers. Hive is 200/150, not exactly a huge commitment to lose a little more than 2 hydras + 50 gas. Ultra cavern is 150/200. Both are gas heavy, but again, that's 4 hydras that are worthless in the late game anyway. I really don't get people that say things like "this tech switch is such a large commitment". Unless you're facing heavy pressure, having a couple less hydras isn't going to be that big of a deal. Plus if you're floating a ton of minerals and gas starved, you could throw down additional expansions (300 mins, again not a huge commitment) for the sake of mining gas. The big commitment of an expansion is spending the additional 1000+ minerals and larva on drones and praying it's not destroyed before it pays for itself. Ultras destroy forcefield and annihilate colossi, banelings roll through the protoss deathball which is clumped up, hydras or corruptors take out surviving voidrays if they have any. Reinforce with mass lings + more banelings when protoss has no army. I almost never see it but banelings are extremely cost-efficient and ultras deal splash to the protoss ball while crushing a huge complaint, the forcefield. Templar pose a problem to lings and banelings but again, it is possible to back off from an engagement and the nerf to Khydarian storm is nice. The common response to ultra/baneling also seems to be the protoss turtling to the deathball. Protoss midgame is relatively weak at applying pressure and if their army is destroyed they're basically screwed. Ling/baneling can wipe out a protoss ball in a blink of an eye in an open field. So they'll sit back, and in the meantime you can do things like build a hive and ultra cavern instead of 6 hydras that sit there dancing on creep. Would you rather have 40 roaches (80 supply) and 20 hydras (40 supply) or 8 ultralisks (48 supply), 40 banelings (20 supply) and 60 lings (30 supply)? 5000/1750 army maxed with 80 drones and 2500/1000 worthless resources, or a 7700/3800 army. Maybe people just don't do it because they feel it's not safe against certain timings, but it's barely been explored whereas almost everything with roach/hydra is being attempted and it's just not working. Protoss began to become strong after learning how its proper combinations and expansion timings work, instead of just sitting around wondering why what they were doing got them no where. | ||
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cordlc
United States360 Posts
On April 14 2011 13:16 Mitchlew wrote: I will just listen to the progamers and expeerts opinion. This excludes idra because according to incontrol tyler and day9 the imbalance is all in his head and he loses before he starts. Protoss is not OP. Lets look at artosis, he is having a terrible time as protoss than he was with zerg, grass is always greener on the other side. gg Yes, for debating whether ZvP is toss favored let's take the opinion of two Protoss and Day9, a guy who wouldn't ever admit imbalance even if it were there. Then you bring up Artosis, who's not only playing from Korea (laggy) but hasn't ever proven himself in the first place. And even so, Artosis will still argue for P>Z | ||
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Starlos
Canada191 Posts
On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: Passively maxing out on roaches with 80 drones then floating 3000/1500 so that your reinforcements trickle in 4 at a time to attack the protoss deathball at your base apparently isn't the way to do it. You edited that pretty quickly, still I kind of agree. On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: I like IdrA's tunneling claw push to snipe sentries. I agree as well. On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: I also think ultra/baneling combos haven't been explored very well at all, a huge complaint is being unable to engage due to forcefields. Indeed, as the only way to plow through the zealot wall is by sending your baneling first. Sure ultralisks destroy force fields, but zealots tank so many ultralisk hits that it nullify any advantage of the ultralisk/baneling combo. On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: First, hive is 200/150, not exactly a huge commitment to lose a little more than 2 hydras + 50 gas. Ultra cavern is 150/200. Both are gas heavy You forgot the infestor's pit. Also the units needed to survive until that point (probably even roaches, which cost gas. It's starting to be a lot of gas no ? On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: , but again, that's 4 hydras that are worthless in the late game anyway. I disagree, the same could be said about EVERYTHING if you want to use that argument. On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: Plus if you're floating a ton of minerals and gas starved, you could throw down additional expansions (300 mins, again not a huge commitment) for the sake of mining gas. Every zerg player does that already. On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: The big commitment of an expansion is spending the additional 1000+ minerals and larva on drones. This one doesn't make any sense. I'll see if you edited it out. On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: Ultras destroy forcefield and annihilate colossi, banelings roll through the protoss deathball which is clumped up Ultralisks are terrible against zealots. As I said before, if you don't send your bane first, then the ultralisks can't deal any damage. If you send ultralisks first, then banelings can't reach the protoss deathball, as they're so huge and hard to micro than they won't let banelings pass. EVEN if banelings pass between the ultralisks, it'll probably do up to no damage, since they'll hit only 2-3 target at once. On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: , hydras or corruptors take out surviving voidrays if they have any. No, the ultralisks are terrible, block banelings, hydralisks get raped by colossi and void rays totally annihilate corrupters. On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: Reinforce with mass lings + more banelings when protoss has no army. Okay. On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: I almost never see it but banelings are extremely cost-efficient and ultras deal splash to the protoss ball while crushing a huge complaint, the forcefield. Banelings are extremely NOT cost-efficient except if you hit like 3-4 light targets or 6-7 armored (or untagged) targets (which is very hard to do to begin with). The ultralisk splash is trash since the 67% damage nerf (well not really trash but kinda bad) and are very hard to use, even to break through the forcefields. Maybe if the ultralisks were smaller you would see them more often. But as it is, there's a reason why you never see it, and it's because they're so huge that they block everything, and they don't deal enough damage to be that useful. They're good, but they should be smaller. EDIT: On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: I really don't get people that say things like "this tech switch is such a large commitment". Unless you're facing heavy pressure, having a couple less hydras isn't going to be that big of a deal. My bad, I thought that every protoss were applying pressure and that for that exact reason four less hydralisks was big of a deal ! I guess not all protoss play that way. On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: High templars, sentries, air units and colossi pose a problem to lings and banelings but again, it is possible to back off from an engagement and the nerf to Khydarian storm is nice. Fixed, but yeah the nerf was "nice" (I wish they would've nerfed something else). And yeah you don't have to sac all your lings, I agree. On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: The common response to ultra/baneling also seems to be the protoss turtling to the deathball. I don't understand this one. You mean that after an encounter the zerg have leftover, and the protoss will stay in his base until he have a new deathball ? I thought that after the protoss had a deathball it was (usually) game over for zerg. On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: Protoss midgame is relatively weak at applying pressure and if their army is destroyed they're basically screwed. I agree that SOME BUILDS are bad at applying pressure in the mid game. The second part of that statement can be applied to zerg/terran. Sure if you have a fair army trade it can be good for the zerg, but it usually don't go that way. On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: Ling/baneling can wipe out a protoss ball in a blink of an eye in an open field. It depends of the ball in question. But yes, sometimes the zerg will have the advantage in small numbers. Sadly it doesn't happen that much. Also being in an open field is a very bad mistake from the protoss so it's not a good argument. On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: Would you rather have 40 roaches and 20 hydras or 7 ultralisks, 40 banelings and 50 lings? The first one. On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: Maybe people just don't do it because they feel it's not safe against certain timings, but it's barely been explored whereas almost everything with roach/hydra is being attempted and it's just not working. Protoss began to become strong after learning how its proper combinations and expansion timings work, instead of just sitting around wondering why what they were doing got them no where. If there's at least one thing I strongly disagree with your post it's that argument. IdrA himself already explored ultralisks a lot, on stupid maps like steppes and etc. He (and other zerg players) simply deem that style to be inefficient and hard to pull off compared to the most popular style. | ||
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Hollywise
France112 Posts
On April 14 2011 08:49 travis wrote: stupidest shit i've ever heard. "real sports" are "just a game" too. whatever, kid | ||
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Kaonis
United States243 Posts
Zerg -Ultralisk -Size has been decreased by 75% -Renamed to "Pygalisk" I would switch back to zerg just for that. | ||
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Sandro
897 Posts
heh, you just showed them nerds | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On April 14 2011 15:45 Kaonis wrote: Greatest balance change ever made by Blizzard: Zerg -Ultralisk -Size has been decreased by 75% -Renamed to "Pygalisk" I would switch back to zerg just for that. that would make ultras not completely mediocre. | ||
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Starlos
Canada191 Posts
Ahah, I love how he probably think starcraft (online) isn't a sport ! Or else he would be ashamed of saying something as stupid as "stop convincing yourself that a pc game will ever be as important as a sport". | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On April 14 2011 15:38 Starlos wrote: Indeed, as the only way to plow through the zealot wall is by sending your baneling first. Sure ultralisks destroy force fields, but zealots tank so many ultralisk hits that it nullify any advantage of the ultralisk/baneling combo. Not many people include zealots in their deathball, and banelings and ultras have the same movespeed. Zealots tank ultralisk hits but ultralisks will easily survive by the time banelings come in. On April 14 2011 15:38 Starlos wrote: You forgot the infestor's pit. Also the units needed to survive until that point (probably even roaches, which cost gas. It's starting to be a lot of gas no ? You're right. An additional 100/100. I'm more interested in how ling/baneling would stop any aggression from the protoss until he has his deathball up. The 'correct' response to the ling/baneling build, from what I've heard from protoss pros, is to turtle up until 200. This gives the zerg plenty of time to do as he wishes. On April 14 2011 15:38 Starlos wrote: I disagree, the same could be said about EVERYTHING if you want to use that argument. I don't see how so? 4 hydras that would have died along with their friends from one shot of colossi are not worth that much, especially if you are sitting maxed accomplishing nothing. On April 14 2011 15:38 Starlos wrote: Every zerg player does that already. I rarely see additional expansions for the sake of mining gas. On April 14 2011 15:38 Starlos wrote: This one doesn't make any sense. I'll see if you edited it out. How does it not make sense? Putting up an additional base is usually considered "risky" because you have to invest time and larva into its saturation. Making it for the sake of mining addition gas would help balance your min/gas ratio. On April 14 2011 15:38 Starlos wrote: Ultralisks are terrible against zealots. As I said before, if you don't send your bane first, then the ultralisks can't deal any damage. If you send ultralisks first, then banelings can't reach the protoss deathball, as they're so huge and hard to micro than they won't let banelings pass. EVEN if banelings pass between the ultralisks, it'll probably do up to no damage, since they'll hit only 2-3 target at once. There is a problem of ultralisks blocking but because they have the same move speed it becomes a positioning and micro battle. Test it out a bit, if you find absolutely no way to get banelings through then I guess everything I'm saying is worthless. Also if you have 30 banelings, which are 50/25 each, they're going to do damage to the clumped ball. It's worth trying out in a unit tester. yes, one baneling isn't going to kill 5 stalkers, but 30 banelings crashing into the protoss ball is instant death. If half of them make it in, you should be pretty pleased. This would be micro intensive (positioning of ultras and banelings, making sure everything doesnt die to two storms, etc) but better than dying instantly to a 200/200 ball. On April 14 2011 15:21 Heavenly wrote: , hydras or corruptors take out surviving voidrays if they have any. No, the ultralisks are terrible, block banelings, hydralisks get raped by colossi and void rays totally annihilate corrupters. Void rays annihilate corruptors because they're more expensive. if you choose to use hydras, you would keep them behind for the sake of sniping voidrays in the aftermath. They're not going to get raped by colossi if the colossi are dead. On April 14 2011 15:38 Starlos wrote: Banelings are extremely NOT cost-efficient except if you hit like 3-4 light targets or 6-7 armored (or untagged) targets (which is very hard to do to begin with). The ultralisk splash is trash since the 67% damage nerf (well not really trash but kinda bad) and are very hard to use, even to break through the forcefields. Maybe if the ultralisks were smaller you would see them more often. But as it is, there's a reason why you never see it, and it's because they're so huge that they block everything, and they don't deal enough damage to be that useful. They're good, but they should be smaller. If the protoss is in a ball, they're going to hit more than one unit. And even if they aren't extremely cost-efficient, they are supply-efficient, and you can have 4 of them opposed to a roach. Maybe pure theorycrafting, but it's an alternative. if it is completely impossible to micro the ultras/banelings then that's that, if not it's a good solution. EDIT: On April 14 2011 15:38 Starlos wrote: My bad, I thought that every protoss were applying pressure and that for that exact reason four less hydralisks was big of a deal ! I guess not all protoss play that way. A lot do not apply pressure, especially against a ling/baneling composition because if you're applying pressure you generally have to move onto open fields unless it's some map like Crossfire. Against ling/baneling you rely on higher tech, which means turtling with defensive play. Cruncher v. Darkforce, what did Cruncher do? 200/200 voidray colossi deathball, didn't do a single thing before that. On April 14 2011 15:38 Starlos wrote: I don't understand this one. You mean that after an encounter the zerg have leftover, and the protoss will stay in his base until he have a new deathball ? I thought that after the protoss had a deathball it was (usually) game over for zerg. explained above, you aren't going to move out against ling/baneling unless you have turtled long enough to have higher-tech units and/or 200/200. On April 14 2011 15:38 Starlos wrote: I agree that SOME BUILDS are bad at applying pressure in the mid game. The second part of that statement can be applied to zerg/terran. Sure if you have a fair army trade it can be good for the zerg, but it usually don't go that way. If they've opened air + transitioned into colossi their push isn't going to come until 4 colossi. It's dependent on what you scout. That's why I said the timings should be looked into more, to see when mid-game pushes come and how to deal with them with what you have. On April 14 2011 15:38 Starlos wrote: It depends of the ball in question. But yes, sometimes the zerg will have the advantage in small numbers. Sadly it doesn't happen that much. Also being in an open field is a very bad mistake from the protoss so it's not a good argument. Depends on the map. In many, like Shattered Temple, it'd be quite hard to not be in an open space when moving out. [QUOTE]On April 14 2011 15:38 Starlos wrote: The first one. Even though it dies almost every single time to a 200/200 colossi ball, and is a cheaper maxed army? [QUOTE]On April 14 2011 15:38 Starlos wrote: If there's at least one thing I strongly disagree with your post it's that argument. IdrA himself already explored ultralisks a lot, on stupid maps like steppes and etc. He (and other zerg players) simply deem that style to be inefficient and hard to pull off compared to the most popular style. [/QUOTE] You wouldn't go ultra/baneling on steppes. You would do it on certain maps, the same way most T and P wouldn't do the same exact build on every single map. And ultralisks are largely retarded because you can send 6 into someone's natural and then they kind of run around each other in circles while six marines kill them all. Their role would be as a meatshield and forcefield stomp, as well as being quite good against colossi (well, so is everything) when most of the gateway units are destroyed by banelings. As for being hard to pull off, a hard to pull off strategy is better than a strategy where you die. | ||
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weeA
India442 Posts
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