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Personal attacks in this thread will draw a temp ban. |
On February 27 2012 14:34 mambar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 14:28 Bagi wrote:On February 27 2012 10:12 LostFaction wrote:
Idra not qualified. You mad?
User was banned for this post. Not qualified for what? Or is this just some dumb random trolling? The latter. He's referring to the upcoming MLG Columbus. He posted something similar in the main MLG Arena thread right before coming over here to try to taunt IdrA's fans. It's pretty sad that someone would take such glee in something so pathetic.
More specifically, he's referring to automatic seeding into groups. Idra's seeded into the open bracket; I believe in winners round 5.
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On February 27 2012 14:36 DemonDeacon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 06:32 Forikorder wrote:On February 27 2012 06:14 Junichi wrote:On February 27 2012 06:10 Forikorder wrote:On February 27 2012 05:34 Loganion wrote:
ehm, isnt IdrA the only zerg so far almost beating Oz (prolly best pvz-er) ? i mean leenock and violet wasnt even close. both 2-0ed with ease... just saying... and IdrA was extremely close to wining so IdrA > leenock and Violet? ofc, since we all know that tournament results immediately and completely reflect the relative skill of players. so... goody > nestea.  at least unlike every other zerg but ret hes still hes still getting by with superior mechnaics then trying to cheese wins seriously whats with all the cheesing from zerg in the last couple week? i barely ever see Zerg all-in and it seems like they all-in at least 2/3 times now if you ask me, going 60 drones with only 1 spine crawler, 10 zerglings, and no scouting is pretty cheesy.. i see idra do greedy builds all the time and he's just betting his opponents won't do any early aggression in the hopes of getting an overwhelming lead into the mid game
can you source this game please? or are you just making false statements?
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On February 27 2012 15:21 McPhiz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 14:36 DemonDeacon wrote:On February 27 2012 06:32 Forikorder wrote:On February 27 2012 06:14 Junichi wrote:On February 27 2012 06:10 Forikorder wrote:On February 27 2012 05:34 Loganion wrote:
ehm, isnt IdrA the only zerg so far almost beating Oz (prolly best pvz-er) ? i mean leenock and violet wasnt even close. both 2-0ed with ease... just saying... and IdrA was extremely close to wining so IdrA > leenock and Violet? ofc, since we all know that tournament results immediately and completely reflect the relative skill of players. so... goody > nestea. at least unlike every other zerg but ret hes still hes still getting by with superior mechnaics then trying to cheese wins seriously whats with all the cheesing from zerg in the last couple week? i barely ever see Zerg all-in and it seems like they all-in at least 2/3 times now if you ask me, going 60 drones with only 1 spine crawler, 10 zerglings, and no scouting is pretty cheesy.. i see idra do greedy builds all the time and he's just betting his opponents won't do any early aggression in the hopes of getting an overwhelming lead into the mid game can you source this game please? or are you just making false statements?
Here's his source:
On February 24 2012 10:11 DemonDeacon wrote:
hmm he didn't think that going 60 drones with no sim city, fast upgrades, and 1 spine crawler for defense was risky and can be seen as an all-in? he's basically bet alive wouldn't put any pressure on in the first 10 minutes-this isn't FMP NR 20. his defense was pretty good too, sending drones to attack 10 hellions, sounds like a good idea.
oh yeah, and no gg? he has to admit alive handled the 3rd game very well. much better than idra dealt with alive's two rushes. i've seen idra do plenty of cheesy, all-in builds (and not just because he's raging). he really just needs to get over himself and stop making excuses for poor gameplay and decision-making.
I believe this was in reference to game 2 of alive showmatch, where Alive did the double-reactoredfactories hellion allin.
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Greedy and all-in aren't the same thing at all. :/
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On February 27 2012 16:35 Incognoto wrote:
Greedy and all-in aren't the same thing at all. :/ That's just about semantics. You could look at it as "if he doesn't attack, I'm going to have a large lead going into the mid- to late-game, but if he does attack, I'm most likely going to lose." Where as an all-in is "I'm going to sacrifice almost any chance of going into the mid- to late-game by cutting workers and pumping out as many attacking units as possible. If I break his defense I'll most likely win while if I don't I most likely lose." I feel like those two things are closely related.
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On February 27 2012 17:28 Cypher_Brood wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 16:35 Incognoto wrote:
Greedy and all-in aren't the same thing at all. :/ That's just about semantics. You could look at it as "if he doesn't attack, I'm going to have a large lead going into the mid- to late-game, but if he does attack, I'm most likely going to lose." Where as an all-in is "I'm going to sacrifice almost any chance of going into the mid- to late-game by cutting workers and pumping out as many attacking units as possible. If I break his defense I'll most likely win while if I don't I most likely lose." I feel like those two things are closely related.
Yes you're gambling basically.
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On February 27 2012 15:21 McPhiz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 14:36 DemonDeacon wrote:On February 27 2012 06:32 Forikorder wrote:On February 27 2012 06:14 Junichi wrote:On February 27 2012 06:10 Forikorder wrote:On February 27 2012 05:34 Loganion wrote:
ehm, isnt IdrA the only zerg so far almost beating Oz (prolly best pvz-er) ? i mean leenock and violet wasnt even close. both 2-0ed with ease... just saying... and IdrA was extremely close to wining so IdrA > leenock and Violet? ofc, since we all know that tournament results immediately and completely reflect the relative skill of players. so... goody > nestea. at least unlike every other zerg but ret hes still hes still getting by with superior mechnaics then trying to cheese wins seriously whats with all the cheesing from zerg in the last couple week? i barely ever see Zerg all-in and it seems like they all-in at least 2/3 times now if you ask me, going 60 drones with only 1 spine crawler, 10 zerglings, and no scouting is pretty cheesy.. i see idra do greedy builds all the time and he's just betting his opponents won't do any early aggression in the hopes of getting an overwhelming lead into the mid game can you source this game please? or are you just making false statements?
yes i was referring to the idra-alive NASL showmatch, game 2 where idra made 59-60 drones (the unit tab shows 50 drones, and when they switch to production tab he proceeds to build an additional 9-10). He has 1 spine crawler and a handful of zerglings and no sim city (Despite having built an evolution chamber and hatchery, he opts to hide them in his base). he does not put up any other defense until after alive already moved out, and by that time it's way too late.
link to vod: http://nasl.tv/Videos/sunday-showmatch-4-alive-vs-idra-part-1
that is game 1^ you can skip to end and click the link to game 2
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I don't know if this has already been posted but here's an interview with Greg after his loss to Oz. There is nothing too exciting about it except maybe a little bit of the clarification on the last game vs Oz.
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in witch episode of itg idra talks about mkp ? for some reason i just want to rewatch that 
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On February 27 2012 18:29 K_Dilkington wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 17:28 Cypher_Brood wrote:On February 27 2012 16:35 Incognoto wrote:
Greedy and all-in aren't the same thing at all. :/ That's just about semantics. You could look at it as "if he doesn't attack, I'm going to have a large lead going into the mid- to late-game, but if he does attack, I'm most likely going to lose." Where as an all-in is "I'm going to sacrifice almost any chance of going into the mid- to late-game by cutting workers and pumping out as many attacking units as possible. If I break his defense I'll most likely win while if I don't I most likely lose." I feel like those two things are closely related. Yes you're gambling basically.
Yeah but being greedy makes for better games than all-ins. x)
Yes, yes you've made your points.
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VS T there are times you have to take huge risks, its pretty often tha its jsut not possible to know exctly whats happening so you defend what you think hes going to do
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On February 27 2012 08:30 Antimatterz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 06:32 Forikorder wrote:On February 27 2012 06:14 Junichi wrote:On February 27 2012 06:10 Forikorder wrote:On February 27 2012 05:34 Loganion wrote:
ehm, isnt IdrA the only zerg so far almost beating Oz (prolly best pvz-er) ? i mean leenock and violet wasnt even close. both 2-0ed with ease... just saying... and IdrA was extremely close to wining so IdrA > leenock and Violet? ofc, since we all know that tournament results immediately and completely reflect the relative skill of players. so... goody > nestea. at least unlike every other zerg but ret hes still hes still getting by with superior mechnaics then trying to cheese wins seriously whats with all the cheesing from zerg in the last couple week? i barely ever see Zerg all-in and it seems like they all-in at least 2/3 times now Zergs are cheesing toss a lot because toss is taking RIDICULOUS risks in the early game in order to get a massive economic advantage late game (FFE into 1 Gateway, making only a single zealot until like the 7 minute mark? No shit you are going to be cheesed...), and zergs are exploiting this metagame to get easier wins. Its extraordinarily difficult to beat a toss late game due to their armies being so much more cost effective compared to the zergs, and if they are on an equal economic backbone, zerg simply has zero chance of winning.
This. Tosses nowadays are putting next to no pressure before 7 minutes and then bam 6 gates building up for a 2 base all in. The zerg can either drone with a false sense of security and pull off a DRG or just punish the toss before the rest of the warp gates finish. It's a war of the all-ins
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On February 28 2012 00:39 Forikorder wrote:
VS T there are times you have to take huge risks, its pretty often tha its jsut not possible to know exctly whats happening so you defend what you think hes going to do
Of course, but making one round of units, building a pre-emptive roach warren or just an extra spine can make you a lot more prepared for these types of plays. You can't always know whats coming, but you can be better prepared.
You can do the Ret style and just drone up like a madman, but guys like viOLet have shown that zergs can be just as successful with a more aggressive lower eco type of play.
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On February 28 2012 00:50 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 00:39 Forikorder wrote:
VS T there are times you have to take huge risks, its pretty often tha its jsut not possible to know exctly whats happening so you defend what you think hes going to do Of course, but making one round of units, building a pre-emptive roach warren or just an extra spine can make you a lot more prepared for these types of plays. You can't always know whats coming, but you can be better prepared. You can do the Ret style and just drone up like a madman, but guys like viOLet have shown that zergs can be just as successful with a more aggressive lower eco type of play.
and violet has the exact opposite style of IdrA
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The VODs are out! :D
Gonna have a great time watching all these games for free. x)
Edit: Oh, it's in one week. q_q
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I whut love seeing idrA go to gsl code a and getting back to gsl, does anyone know if hes gona stay longer?
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On February 28 2012 01:06 unnar wrote:
I whut love seeing idrA go to gsl code a and getting back to gsl, does anyone know if hes gona stay longer?
He's going to stay in Arizona for the tournament season. I really doubt he'd go back unless he had like 4 weeks of free time
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On February 28 2012 00:50 Bagi wrote:
Of course, but making one round of units, building a pre-emptive roach warren or just an extra spine can make you a lot more prepared for these types of plays. You can't always know whats coming, but you can be better prepared.
You can do the Ret style and just drone up like a madman, but guys like viOLet have shown that zergs can be just as successful with a more aggressive lower eco type of play.
I am not a great SCII player by any means, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But from I understand this statement basically says that you should prepare for every possibility (of pressure from the opponent) in the absence of scouting information regarding the opponents exact build - which is often hard or impossible to get for a zerg player in many game situations.
A player following this maxim would likely not be very competitive since he has to make so many economical sacrifices that he is equally screwed when some kind of all-in or pressure is NOT coming, rendering the early investment of defensive infrastructure useless. Therefore competitive players make educated guesses of what the opponent is about to do before they can confirm this via scouting. Sometimes those guesses are wrong and sometimes the necessary information is gathered too late.
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On February 28 2012 01:25 vlkv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 00:50 Bagi wrote:
Of course, but making one round of units, building a pre-emptive roach warren or just an extra spine can make you a lot more prepared for these types of plays. You can't always know whats coming, but you can be better prepared.
You can do the Ret style and just drone up like a madman, but guys like viOLet have shown that zergs can be just as successful with a more aggressive lower eco type of play. I am not a great SCII player by any means, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But from I understand this statement basically says that you should prepare for every possibility (of pressure from the opponent) in the absence of scouting information regarding the opponents exact build - which is often hard or impossible to get for a zerg player in many game situations. A player following this maxim would likely not be very competitive since he has to make so many economical sacrifices that he is equally screwed when some kind of all-in or pressure is NOT coming, rendering the early investment of defensive infrastructure useless. Therefore competitive players make educated guesses of what the opponent is about to do before they can confirm this via scouting. Sometimes those guesses are wrong and sometimes the necessary information is gathered too late.
I never claimed that you need to be prepared for every single thing, its almost impossible and not economically sound at all. What I'm saying is that you can make little sacrifices to be safer, for example instead of building a lone spine crawler build a 2nd one and place your evo chamber in a good spot to make hellion runbys harder to pull off. A spine crawler is 150 minerals if you count the drone, its the same price as 6 zerglings. Has anyone ever gg'd because they lose 6 zerglings to a lucky hellion shot early game? Does that really put you so far behind? I don't think so.
There are educated guesses and then there are players trying to cut corners. 1 spine with nothing to support it is the latter, especially if you have no clue what your opponent is doing.
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On February 28 2012 01:25 vlkv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 00:50 Bagi wrote:
Of course, but making one round of units, building a pre-emptive roach warren or just an extra spine can make you a lot more prepared for these types of plays. You can't always know whats coming, but you can be better prepared.
You can do the Ret style and just drone up like a madman, but guys like viOLet have shown that zergs can be just as successful with a more aggressive lower eco type of play. I am not a great SCII player by any means, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But from I understand this statement basically says that you should prepare for every possibility (of pressure from the opponent) in the absence of scouting information regarding the opponents exact build - which is often hard or impossible to get for a zerg player in many game situations. A player following this maxim would likely not be very competitive since he has to make so many economical sacrifices that he is equally screwed when some kind of all-in or pressure is NOT coming, rendering the early investment of defensive infrastructure useless. Therefore competitive players make educated guesses of what the opponent is about to do before they can confirm this via scouting. Sometimes those guesses are wrong and sometimes the necessary information is gathered too late.
What you say is true. Preparing for every eventuality will put you behind, more so at a pro level, which makes scouting important. At Idra's level of play, every little thing counts (more so in ZvZ). Guessing is risky at best; that's why mind games (which Nestea is really good at) is so important.
Furthermore I really think Zerg aren't meant for the low-eco and aggressive kind of style. Protoss and Terran do a much better job at it considering how cost effective their units are compared to Zerg. This isn't balance qq or anything like, hear me out. It's really hard to be cost effective with Ling/Roach when you have long ranged Stalkers, FF, etc.. What Zerg has though, which is imo better than any unit ability in the game, is the ability to drone really hard. P or T will make like 2 or 3 workers at a time, Zerg can do 10. Similar story with unit production. Zerg is incredibly reactionary and/or adaptable, which is what their strength is, imo. A good Zerg player knows when to drone and when not to.
Sure you can be aggressive like Violet or July, but I think Idra's and Ret's style is the "proper" way to play Zerg.
Edit: Not "proper", but let's say Zerg suits Idra's and Ret's style more than being aggressive.
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EPT
