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On October 18 2011 03:14 WhiteDog wrote:
Also, nobody ever won the tournament from the loser bracket yet.
Well, theoretically this would make sense even in the case of no advantage to the winner. If you're coming from the winners bracket side you're statistically better than whoever comes from the losers side. And would likely win again there. If you think about it, no advantage to HuK against MC and he would have still have won it, he was just playing that much better than MC, thus coming from the winners side.
Though I'd agree the bias to winners side is too heavy for the finals. 1 game up in a Bo7 or whatever is enough already.
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Plus, the loser has had to play at least 2/3 series in a row, leading up to the final.
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On October 18 2011 03:14 WhiteDog wrote:
You need a Naniwa's 26-2 to win the whole tournament from the open tournament... Or a Huk 14-5... (not to mention Incontrol's 8-9 to get to the 4th place of MLG Dallas).
Also, nobody ever won the tournament from the loser bracket yet.
What does coming into Pool Play from the Open Bracket have to do with the Losers Bracket once Pool Play is over? You are mixing two completely different things.
On October 18 2011 03:14 WhiteDog wrote:
I'm not against the loser bracket, i love it... but it only benefit the 4 first players of the group play, it's not serious.
The losers bracket benefits every single player in the pools, so 24 in total. In every other tournament those who finish at the bottom half of their groups would be eliminated. With MLG's system they still have a chance. Yes, it is harder for them - but it's better than being directly eliminated.
On October 18 2011 03:14 WhiteDog wrote:
Also, nobody ever won the tournament from the loser bracket yet.
Okay, two more things. The way the pools work tends to benefit the best players in the tournament. At Orlando, Bomber, The StC and Huk played much better than anyone else in their groups, while Idra and MKP were very evenly matched and ended up finishing on first and second place in their group and 4th and 5th overall. MC played rather poorly in his group matches but upped his game on the final day and proved that the handicap from finishing third in his pool wasn't that much of a problem (Idra finished second). At Raleigh the group winners were Coca, Bomber, DRG and Puma - all heads and shoulders above everyone else. At Anaheim it was DRG, Boxe, MVP and Rain - all of them 5:0-ed their groups. The only players who put an actual fight in the group stage were MMA and Ganzi - and, similarly to MC this weekend, they managed to get to the top 4.
Secondly, at every MLG there are a lot of very very good players. There have only been 4 MLGs since the Koreans started coming and 4 different champions. Four. Even more importantly, every single one of these champions deserved to be the champion and there is absolutely nothing irregular with having none of those four come from the losers bracket.
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On October 18 2011 05:08 xtfftc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 03:14 WhiteDog wrote:
You need a Naniwa's 26-2 to win the whole tournament from the open tournament... Or a Huk 14-5... (not to mention Incontrol's 8-9 to get to the 4th place of MLG Dallas).
Also, nobody ever won the tournament from the loser bracket yet. What does coming into Pool Play from the Open Bracket have to do with the Losers Bracket once Pool Play is over? You are mixing two completely different things. Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 03:14 WhiteDog wrote:
I'm not against the loser bracket, i love it... but it only benefit the 4 first players of the group play, it's not serious. The losers bracket benefits every single player in the pools, so 24 in total. In every other tournament those who finish at the bottom half of their groups would be eliminated. With MLG's system they still have a chance. Yes, it is harder for them - but it's better than being directly eliminated. Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 03:14 WhiteDog wrote:
Also, nobody ever won the tournament from the loser bracket yet. Okay, two more things. The way the pools work tends to benefit the best players in the tournament. At Orlando, Bomber, The StC and Huk played much better than anyone else in their groups, while Idra and MKP were very evenly matched and ended up finishing on first and second place in their group and 4th and 5th overall. MC played rather poorly in his group matches but upped his game on the final day and proved that the handicap from finishing third in his pool wasn't that much of a problem (Idra finished second). At Raleigh the group winners were Coca, Bomber, DRG and Puma - all heads and shoulders above everyone else. At Anaheim it was DRG, Boxe, MVP and Rain - all of them 5:0-ed their groups. The only players who put an actual fight in the group stage were MMA and Ganzi - and, similarly to MC this weekend, they managed to get to the top 4. Secondly, at every MLG there are a lot of very very good players. There have only been 4 MLGs since the Koreans started coming and 4 different champions. Four. Even more importantly, every single one of these champions deserved to be the champion and there is absolutely nothing irregular with having none of those four come from the losers bracket.
Seriously, I don't understand why you keep defending such a fail format. Even MLG agree that it should be fixed.
The exemple on Naniwa was just to give perspectives and also responding to you citing him as an exemple of how you can still win MLG coming from open tournament. And no it does not benefit every player in the pool equally, but I'm not gona explain that, it's actually pretty clear.
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On October 18 2011 05:08 xtfftc wrote:
The losers bracket benefits every single player in the pools, so 24 in total. In every other tournament those who finish at the bottom half of their groups would be eliminated. With MLG's system they still have a chance. Yes, it is harder for them - but it's better than being directly eliminated.
My argument is simple. Round robin pool play is already fair. In every single one of these groups, the best 2 players came first and second. There is absolutely no reason for the rest of the group to not get eliminated.
I mean, Incontrol lost every single match in his pool, yet he still gets a second chance? Why? It doesn't benefit the spectators or the tournament as a whole. It only benefits Incontrol.
Nothing anybody can say can convince me that the MLG system isn't broken, but this converstation really has nothin to do with Idra and his fanclub anymore.
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On October 18 2011 05:24 Pooman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 05:08 xtfftc wrote:
The losers bracket benefits every single player in the pools, so 24 in total. In every other tournament those who finish at the bottom half of their groups would be eliminated. With MLG's system they still have a chance. Yes, it is harder for them - but it's better than being directly eliminated. My argument is simple. Round robin pool play is already fair. In every single one of these groups, the best 2 player came first and second. There is absolutely no reason for the rest of the group to not get eliminated. I mean, Incontrol lost every single match in his pool, yet he still gets a second chance? Why? It doesn't benefit the spectator or the tournament as a whole. It only benefits Incontrol. Nothing anybody can say can convince me that the MLG system isn't broken, but this converstation really has nothin to do with Idra and his fanclub anymore.
At first, I was talking about that because I feel Idra's run at MLG was too hard compared to many others considering his result in pool play, so yes it has to do with Idra 
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On October 18 2011 05:24 Pooman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 05:08 xtfftc wrote:
The losers bracket benefits every single player in the pools, so 24 in total. In every other tournament those who finish at the bottom half of their groups would be eliminated. With MLG's system they still have a chance. Yes, it is harder for them - but it's better than being directly eliminated. My argument is simple. Round robin pool play is already fair. In every single one of these groups, the best 2 players came first and second. There is absolutely no reason for the rest of the group to not get eliminated. I mean, Incontrol lost every single match in his pool, yet he still gets a second chance? Why? It doesn't benefit the spectators or the tournament as a whole. It only benefits Incontrol.
There's two answers to this question. They play more games even after going 0-5 to get a better distribution of the seeding points, which serve both for pool play and for the Championship at the end of the year. Also, with the amount of top players playing in the group stages it is not that big of a deal to go 0-5, so playing one more match against the players coming from the Open Bracket is a nice way to check whether these players deserve to keep their places. Yes, MLG screwed up the points distribution system very badly and no one is denying that but that doesn't mean that the whole format is problematic.
The second answer is why not? Those who have shown bad results in pool play are likely to lose anyway, so it's not that big of a deal to give them another chance. They play early in the day and most of these games aren't even streamed. But in case someone had a bad day on Friday, they still have a chance to get an overall better placement. Most of the time it doesn't happen because it doesn't have to happen: the inferior players are eliminated earlier and the better ones get the top places. However, there are nice exceptions such as MC this weekend; Nada and Hero a month ago; even Select's mad run last year when he ended up playing Idra in the finals ("I wish there were Zerg players in NA", loved this post-match interview so much). Out of those Hero's one was particularly impressive and his games against DRG when he finally got eliminated were some of the best SC2 played to date.
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This discussion has been going on in a number of other places as well and there's points to be made for both sides really. It's the first real season though. It's a work in progress and considering how much stuff has happened in between I doubt it'd be the same next one. Not that we can't theorize of course!
Btw, do you know how you can see IdrA did really well this weekend? First MLG where this thread is readable the day after pretty much since he started participating ^^
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On October 18 2011 05:24 Pooman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 05:08 xtfftc wrote:
The losers bracket benefits every single player in the pools, so 24 in total. In every other tournament those who finish at the bottom half of their groups would be eliminated. With MLG's system they still have a chance. Yes, it is harder for them - but it's better than being directly eliminated. My argument is simple. Round robin pool play is already fair. In every single one of these groups, the best 2 players came first and second. There is absolutely no reason for the rest of the group to not get eliminated. I mean, Incontrol lost every single match in his pool, yet he still gets a second chance? Why? It doesn't benefit the spectators or the tournament as a whole. It only benefits Incontrol. Nothing anybody can say can convince me that the MLG system isn't broken, but this converstation really has nothin to do with Idra and his fanclub anymore.
The problem with this is obvious - the players in the pool are supposed to be the best in the tournament.
If you completely eliminate players based on their performance in the pool (matches against only top players), it wouldn't make sense. A player stuck in a group of death would have an easier time just plowing through the open bracket, at least then they're guaranteed to play easier players.
Or perhaps you're for removing the loser bracket altogether? Or the pool play?
Personally I think MLG has the best tournament format around. It isn't a coincidence that it has consistently given us the most epic tournaments we've seen.
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On October 18 2011 05:50 schimmetje wrote:
Btw, do you know how you can see IdrA did really well this weekend? First MLG where this thread is readable the day after pretty much since he started participating ^^
Yeah but then again there was absolutely no controversy around Idra this weekend, was there? He gg-ed after every defeat - even Boxer and MC's cheeses, he didn't smash anything, he never called anyone rubbish. He had a good enough tournament to keep his fans happy, yet also bad enough to keep the haters at bay
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On October 18 2011 05:56 xtfftc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 05:50 schimmetje wrote:
Btw, do you know how you can see IdrA did really well this weekend? First MLG where this thread is readable the day after pretty much since he started participating ^^ Yeah but then again there was absolutely no controversy around Idra this weekend, was there? He gg-ed after every defeat - even Boxer and MC's cheeses, he didn't smash anything, he never called anyone rubbish. He had a good enough tournament to keep his fans happy, yet also bad enough to keep the haters at bay
Well when you put it like that.. wow this really was a Bizarro MLG lol. Works for me though!
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On October 18 2011 06:05 schimmetje wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 05:56 xtfftc wrote:On October 18 2011 05:50 schimmetje wrote:
Btw, do you know how you can see IdrA did really well this weekend? First MLG where this thread is readable the day after pretty much since he started participating ^^ Yeah but then again there was absolutely no controversy around Idra this weekend, was there? He gg-ed after every defeat - even Boxer and MC's cheeses, he didn't smash anything, he never called anyone rubbish. He had a good enough tournament to keep his fans happy, yet also bad enough to keep the haters at bay Well when you put it like that.. wow this really was a Bizarro MLG lol. Works for me though!
The last time he GG'd Huk, who he usually BM's, Huk joined EG. So obviously, coupled with the EG announcement, this means that EG just bought every starcraft team 
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Does anyone know if Idra will be at Blizzcon?
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On October 18 2011 03:43 Hardigan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 02:36 xtfftc wrote:Oh, and someone posted this on /r/sc: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/H0cBH.png) Idra vs MC again, so awesome :D + Show Spoiler +I don't actually see MC eliminating Bomber anytime soon but at least the brackets are favourable no! pls no.... anyone but MC... Idra is such a beast demolishing great Players and such. But MC is his cryptonit. Idra dropped out of so many tournament just because of MC.
Do you really think Bomber will lose to MC?
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On October 18 2011 06:31 TUski wrote:
Does anyone know if Idra will be at Blizzcon?
He will be at ESWC this weekend, not Blizzcon.
Also congrats on the amazing run at MLG Greg! I was shaking during the Bomber series!
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The next page of this thread is very special.
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On October 18 2011 06:32 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 03:43 Hardigan wrote:On October 18 2011 02:36 xtfftc wrote:Oh, and someone posted this on /r/sc: Idra vs MC again, so awesome :D + Show Spoiler +I don't actually see MC eliminating Bomber anytime soon but at least the brackets are favourable no! pls no.... anyone but MC... Idra is such a beast demolishing great Players and such. But MC is his cryptonit. Idra dropped out of so many tournament just because of MC. Do you really think Bomber will lose to MC?
I'm torn on this one. I want Bomber to win because I like his play and I dislike MC's style (although I like his personality).
However, until Idra gets a big win against MC, I want the two of them to meet at every possible tournament.
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On October 18 2011 06:32 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 03:43 Hardigan wrote:On October 18 2011 02:36 xtfftc wrote:Oh, and someone posted this on /r/sc: Idra vs MC again, so awesome :D + Show Spoiler +I don't actually see MC eliminating Bomber anytime soon but at least the brackets are favourable no! pls no.... anyone but MC... Idra is such a beast demolishing great Players and such. But MC is his cryptonit. Idra dropped out of so many tournament just because of MC. Do you really think Bomber will lose to MC?
Isn't the bigger question if MC or Bomber will even attend, since they may have to decide between GSL and Providence
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EPT
