EPTThat is not how it works, you won't know if IU is happy with it unless a scandal breaks out and it becomes known that she isn't.
Korean Music Discussion - Page 3495
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
That is not how it works, you won't know if IU is happy with it unless a scandal breaks out and it becomes known that she isn't. | ||
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aloT
England1042 Posts
On August 07 2012 18:13 StorkHwaiting wrote: Why would you feel sorry when she was the one who started this whole drama, though? If she didn't respond to Hyomin's tweet, the fans would NEVER have known anything was going on within the group. Sure, getting bullied sucks, but like you're saying now, having no career sucks even more, and that's exactly what she flushed down the toilet when she decided to make their internal strife public. If she hadn't produced that smoking gun, this entire thing would have been handled in-house. Maybe she would have gotten the boot, maybe she would have quietly soldiered on within the group until she could accrue enough fans to spin-off a solo act, but at least she would have maintained the status quo. I can understand sympathizing with her for being put between a rock and a hard place, but I don't understand how people can honestly claim Hwayoung didn't bring this particular scandal and uproar upon her own head. I think that, more than anything, is what got her kicked off the group. But that is not Hwayoung's fault. Not at all. It is the fandoms fault, however you want to call them, the netizens intermixed with the idiots that crave drama. I will fault Hwayoung for her ignorance in bringing her argument to public, but it is ultimately the public that made a fuss out of it that brought this down. Girls fight. I could find dozens of recorded clips of SNSD talking about the arguments they have had. But that is part of life, they fight, make up and soldier on. The only difference with Hwayoung is that for the first time, the public were made privvy to one of them, and instantly jumped in to tear everything apart. It would be completely reasonable to think that if this twitter incident was not public, that a few months down the road on Variety Show XYZ they would say "we had a big argument the other day, Hwayoung hurt her leg and we were all annoyed after working so long already that we had to change our choreo .................. but afterwards we realised how hard Hwayoung must be feeling too" and it would be accepted graciously and over without a moments second thought. Although she shouldnt of brought it out, she could not of possibly known how much of a reaction the public would of given her, and this will be a lesson that everybody in the entertainment industry will of taken strongly. | ||
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DwD
Sweden8621 Posts
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unichan
United States4223 Posts
On August 07 2012 18:22 Kipsate wrote: That is not how it works, you won't know if IU is happy with it unless a scandal breaks out and it becomes known that she isn't. forget it i think he's just happy for an excuse to love a 12 year old | ||
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
On August 07 2012 18:22 aloT wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 07 2012 18:13 StorkHwaiting wrote: Why would you feel sorry when she was the one who started this whole drama, though? If she didn't respond to Hyomin's tweet, the fans would NEVER have known anything was going on within the group. Sure, getting bullied sucks, but like you're saying now, having no career sucks even more, and that's exactly what she flushed down the toilet when she decided to make their internal strife public. If she hadn't produced that smoking gun, this entire thing would have been handled in-house. Maybe she would have gotten the boot, maybe she would have quietly soldiered on within the group until she could accrue enough fans to spin-off a solo act, but at least she would have maintained the status quo. I can understand sympathizing with her for being put between a rock and a hard place, but I don't understand how people can honestly claim Hwayoung didn't bring this particular scandal and uproar upon her own head. I think that, more than anything, is what got her kicked off the group. But that is not Hwayoung's fault. Not at all. It is the fandoms fault, however you want to call them, the netizens intermixed with the idiots that crave drama. I will fault Hwayoung for her ignorance in bringing her argument to public, but it is ultimately the public that made a fuss out of it that brought this down. Girls fight. I could find dozens of recorded clips of SNSD talking about the arguments they have had. But that is part of life, they fight, make up and soldier on. The only difference with Hwayoung is that for the first time, the public were made privvy to one of them, and instantly jumped in to tear everything apart. It would be completely reasonable to think that if this twitter incident was not public, that a few months down the road on Variety Show XYZ they would say "we had a big argument the other day, Hwayoung hurt her leg and we were all annoyed after working so long already that we had to change our choreo .................. but afterwards we realised how hard Hwayoung must be feeling too" and it would be accepted graciously and over without a moments second thought. Although she shouldnt of brought it out, she could not of possibly known how much of a reaction the public would of given her, and this will be a lesson that everybody in the entertainment industry will of taken strongly. You bring up some good points, but I would argue that most everyone in the industry DID know how the public would react to it though. That's why other idols know better than to engage in that kind of childish behavior. I would also disagree with your assessment about fault. It is 100% Hwayoung's fault that this scandal broke as bad as it did. When the netizens started buzzing and the rumor mill got cranking, instead of sugarcoating the incident and denying, Hwayoung whined even louder to fan the flames. She even got her sister to join in. How can you say this isn't her fault? She all but incited the mobs to anger. The only thing worse she could have done was have her sister take a picture of her lying in a pool of blood with a bruised and battered face. DwD: Think please? If she wanted to continue working in this industry, she wouldn't have tried so hard to turn public opinion against her fellow group members. If anything is going to get her blacklisted it's that. Hyomin might have been catty or whatever, but she did it behind closed doors. She left a very vague, anonymous sort of tweet that never would have caused a stir in public. The smart way to do things. Hwayoung responded with a giant public diarrhea. | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On August 07 2012 17:23 Kuja wrote: What 12 year old girl is going to turn down being on T-ara? There's a reason that they are called minors cant make certain decisions for themselves, so I blame the company for taking advantage of that. I don't know maybe im overly sympathetic but can you really expect a 12 year old to dance/sing at the level of T-ara? Can you also blame a 12 year old for going along with being on T-ara? I just don't like seeing people attacking her personally, when i feel that shes more a victim/being used in this case. And that's the problem. She's not on the level of the rest. Sure, you're right, it might help her development being in a successful group. But while learning she will make mistakes. If she's a trainee those mistakes wont matter - her coaches might get angry etc. But if she makes those mistakes while being in an established group those mistakes hurt the group. And that's why it's bad for the group to have her. She will fuck something up. On August 07 2012 17:35 polgas wrote: Criticism is fine but the timing of kicking her out of the group after all those criticisms is way too suspicious. Yeah, because it's the most retarded thing to do in that situation. Force everyone in front of a camera the day after the twitter drama started and make everyone say it was a misunderstanding. T-ara apologizes to Hwayoung. Hwayoung said she isnt being bullied. Wait 3-4 months. Kick Hwayoung out with some obscure reason "Different career path, she wants to try being a solo rapper, etc etc". No drama (or way less drama). | ||
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aloT
England1042 Posts
On August 07 2012 18:28 StorkHwaiting wrote: You bring up some good points, but I would argue that most everyone in the industry DID know how the public would react to it though. That's why other idols know better than to engage in that kind of childish behavior. I would also disagree with your assessment about fault. It is 100% Hwayoung's fault that this scandal broke as bad as it did. When the netizens started buzzing and the rumor mill got cranking, instead of sugarcoating the incident and denying, Hwayoung whined even louder to fan the flames. She even got her sister to join in. How can you say this isn't her fault? She all but incited the mobs to anger. The only thing worse she could have done was have her sister take a picture of her lying in a pool of blood with a bruised and battered face. DwD: Think please? If she wanted to continue working in this industry, she wouldn't have tried so hard to turn public opinion against her fellow group members. If anything is going to get her blacklisted it's that. Hyomin might have been catty or whatever, but she did it behind closed doors. She left a very vague, anonymous sort of tweet that never would have caused a stir in public. The smart way to do things. Hwayoung responded with a giant public diarrhea. You are absolutely correct in that Hwayoung made a big error in professional judgement, but it is wrong to blame the victim. She could of handled herself better, and at any point backtracked the tweets to make them out as a joke, teasing, or rushed over to Hyomins dorm to get a happy selca posted asap, but just because she could does not mean she is to blame for not doing so. She is the inexperienced maknae and should be helped by her seniors and company. There are many ways to punish her irresponsibility, but in the workplace, when an employee makes an error, it is often also the line manager that takes a flak. Here, it was all dumped on her. Do not ever blame the victim, but the people and the environment that made it happen. It is her fault that she has now quite probably destroyed her career, but that does not mean it was a mistake. If anything, what she did was justified and correct. Because of her, skipped over issues such as bullying and poor working conditions were put on the radar. It may not of done herself any good, but making these things known, if only as a brief emotional outbreak was not an error. It is something that was coming for a very long time. The blame, in the end, lies with the trigger happy fandom and the gun weilded by CCM. | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
On August 07 2012 18:42 aloT wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 07 2012 18:28 StorkHwaiting wrote: You bring up some good points, but I would argue that most everyone in the industry DID know how the public would react to it though. That's why other idols know better than to engage in that kind of childish behavior. I would also disagree with your assessment about fault. It is 100% Hwayoung's fault that this scandal broke as bad as it did. When the netizens started buzzing and the rumor mill got cranking, instead of sugarcoating the incident and denying, Hwayoung whined even louder to fan the flames. She even got her sister to join in. How can you say this isn't her fault? She all but incited the mobs to anger. The only thing worse she could have done was have her sister take a picture of her lying in a pool of blood with a bruised and battered face. DwD: Think please? If she wanted to continue working in this industry, she wouldn't have tried so hard to turn public opinion against her fellow group members. If anything is going to get her blacklisted it's that. Hyomin might have been catty or whatever, but she did it behind closed doors. She left a very vague, anonymous sort of tweet that never would have caused a stir in public. The smart way to do things. Hwayoung responded with a giant public diarrhea. You are absolutely correct in that Hwayoung made a big error in professional judgement, but it is wrong to blame the victim. She could of handled herself better, and at any point backtracked the tweets to make them out as a joke, teasing, or rushed over to Hyomins dorm to get a happy selca posted asap, but just because she could does not mean she is to blame for not doing so. She is the inexperienced maknae and should be helped by her seniors and company. There are many ways to punish her irresponsibility, but in the workplace, when an employee makes an error, it is often also the line manager that takes a flak. Here, it was all dumped on her. Do not ever blame the victim, but the people and the environment that made it happen. It is her fault that she has now quite probably destroyed her career, but that does not mean it was a mistake. If anything, what she did was justified and correct. Because of her, skipped over issues such as bullying and poor working conditions were put on the radar. I This slogan works quite well for rape education but here? Not so much. As he's already pointed out publicly broadcasting any discord won't do you or anyone else any favors. Hwayoung knew that and ignored it anyway. It's better for everyone to deal with this behind closed doors- make KKS aware of it if he didn't know already and then complain about him if he doesn't do anything about it. Shitting on your group in public is only going to tank your career as well as the career of everyone around you. Hard for anyone to help her if she breaks the situation to the public before anyone can rush to her aid...not that I think that a 19 year old 2-year veteran of the industry is so stupid she doesn't know that telling everyone your group is a bunch of bitches is the wrong move. Still no proof bullying occured and T-ara's whole career is an example of poor working conditions, it's not like this revealed anything new on that front. edit- pretty much everything stork said below me except the last line which is too vague and untrue especially for rape victims where this argument usually comes up. | ||
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
Now, I think our differences are that we have two very different moral belief systems, and I won't comment on which is right or wrong because I don't believe there is any objective truth found in that but... My opinion: It is not Hwayoung's fault that she was shoved into a pre-formed group and hostile working environment. It is not Hwayoung's fault she was subjected to poor working conditions. It IS Hwayoung's fault this scandal got as bad as it did. It IS Hwayoung's fault that her career is now destroyed. It IS Hwayoung's fault that T-ARA's reputation and image are now sullied. I completely disagree with the concept of "do not ever blame the victim," but that's where I think we have our philosophical/moral differences. | ||
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DwD
Sweden8621 Posts
If the other girls wouldn't have acted like they did she couldn't have replied on twitter to begin with for 1 thing. | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
On August 07 2012 18:54 DwD wrote: You make it sound like Hwayoung is the sole reason for all the things you've listed. Sure she played a part, but imo a small part. If the other girls wouldn't have acted like they did she couldn't have replied on twitter to begin with for 1 thing. You have some grammatical/verbage issues but I think I get your point. The thing is, if Hwa had just left the shit on twitter alone and not posted publicly the public that actually bothers to check their twitters would have thought it was odd but not known what it was about, so there's no issue at all. it was only after hwa started complaining that the whole fiasco started, so in that sense she's totally to blame for the resulting fiasco. Basically, my sense is that yes, although there was provocation on 6-ara's part nothing at all would have happened if Hwayoung hadn't decided to make everything public. Since she did, IMO the whole scandal shit and her getting kicked out is basically all her fault. If there were any internal issues surrounding those tweets or bullying or whatever she should have dealt with it in private. Replying on twitter and generating a shitstorm does no one any good. | ||
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andyrau
13015 Posts
Even if she did so unintentionally, hwayoung instigated, prolonged, and exacerbated this entire situation and I don't see how it benefits her or should be a reason to sympathize with her. Her apology, even if it was vague as hell, was the a good first step, but neither confirming nor denying the allegations the public throws at the group is either shady as fuck or ridiculously irresponsible. We keep drawing parallels to the Nam Gyuri case and Seeya/CCM. In that scenario, the edges were clear and borders were defined. Here, the situation was just a quagmire of shitslinging & conjectures, and it still is a week or two later. Such poor handling of the entire thing by both sides, but I guess CCM has the larger burden because they're actually supposed to have a PR team, whereas hwayoung is probably doing what trusted but inexperienced people tell her. | ||
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aloT
England1042 Posts
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
On August 07 2012 19:03 aloT wrote: The only reason I am not solely, or placing the majority of the blame on Hwayoung is because the cause for her bringing all this to light is warranted. If she were to hit out at Hyomin on twitter over a theoretical pillow fight then it would be entirely her fault, because she herself is the root and the actor. But in the real scenario she is just swallowed up by the mess that her management gave her. I cannot fault someone for having a sudden negative reaction to a continued situation outside their realm of control, even if it is detrimental to their career. I can understand why some of you folks feel that she is to blame for bringing this on herself, after all, it was her hands that tied the noose, but that rope was given by KKS. In essence, what you're saying is if a person is put in a difficult situation they're no longer responsible for their actions. IMO, a person's true character emerges in adversity. | ||
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aloT
England1042 Posts
I get where you guys are coming from, but with Hwayoung, the management must take responsibility. It was their gross neglect that made Hwayoung lose her professionalism. | ||
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aloT
England1042 Posts
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
On August 07 2012 19:22 aloT wrote: That is not what I am saying. Hwayoung was not given a carte blanche. She acted much in the same way that any other person would do - if it was a normal job. For the situation to escalate as it did, she and the other members should be reprimanded and be given punitive actions to deter future issues from arising, with the management taking the heat. If an employee has become negative as a result of poor working conditions, then verbal complaints are entirely justified and within their rights of person. The only issue I take with Hwayoung is that she did not persue it in an official capacity - which results in a reprimand, but certainly not a dismissal. I guess all thist just goes to show how far detatched the entertainment industry is to most others when the working standards are a strict two cuts above most others. That's not an accurate analogy. There's a world of difference between an office worker complaining to their higher ups about working conditions and a celebrity taking to twitter to badmouth their fellow group members. She also did not act in much the same way as anyone else in the industry, hence why you don't see any other kpop celebs doing what she did or having their group ruined by such a scandal. There were reports of guys in other kpop groups coming to blows with their group members. Did any of those guys run on twitter to post pics of their fat lip and torn shirt and have their brothers/cousins talk about how their bro keeps getting punched in the head and it's not right? Hwayoung's behavior was ridiculous by any measure, but especially bad in the context of Korean culture. | ||
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Vorgrim
Korea (North)1601 Posts
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Purpl3
United States1067 Posts
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Vorgrim
Korea (North)1601 Posts
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