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On July 12 2012 08:26 sgxmitchy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:16 DystopiaX wrote:On July 12 2012 08:12 hyszlan wrote:
@DystopiaX, Correct me if im wrong but changing the artist behind a certain song, actually makes it sound different and because of that the level of enjoyment will inevitably change. If its not a case where it actually happens to sound EXACTLY the same which I dont think siamese twins could pull off.
lets say, remove Hyorin from SISTAR, would you still enjoy their actual songs just as much? No, I agree with you in this. Firehand's argument was that if Let it be was from a completely different group and not the Beatles, but the music was exactly the same, Let It Be would be worse musically because it wouldn't have come from the Beatle's popularity. THAT I disagree with. @Moon- again that's not what I'm arguing. If you give the same song to 2 different singers of course they're gonna sound different. What Firehand is saying is not that they'll sound different, but that one will be better ONLY BECAUSE the artist is more popular. That's not what he's saying at all. He's saying that the exposure of the song to the public (its popularity) probably would have been less popular if given to a less popular group. Whether it would be worse musically would depend on the less popular group's skill to perform the song and that's it. He still has a point with prestige and reputation carrying songs. Also ITT: My idea of kpop are different than your idea of kpop. In the end, we all enjoy the same things for various reason.
He has poor communication skills then
On July 12 2012 08:09 firehand101 wrote:
the group does impact how good the song is
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On July 12 2012 08:25 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:21 firehand101 wrote:On July 12 2012 08:15 DystopiaX wrote:On July 12 2012 08:09 firehand101 wrote:On July 12 2012 08:05 DystopiaX wrote:
It hasn't. Look at the numbers. They support me. What do the music companies use?
Look at our RECORD SALES
guess what's going down? sales of physical media. Guess what's going up? Sales of digital media. Dude you cant really sit there and make claims on how multi-billion dollar corporations are stupid and dont know what they are doing.... File sharing did virtually kill physical media. Yes I agree that digital downloads are going up. The transition wasn't a full 100% conversion between the two. The music industry has had to change completely to compensate for the change...like ive been saying they have to market their idols so the masses will purchase their digital media They are fucking stupid. Being successful in a business model that became irrelevant over 10 years ago doesn't mean that you can be successful in a new one. I'd argue that more people are buying music digitally now than anyone ever bought music physically. I do agree that they have to market their idols for personalities, cause that's all they have left. Otherwise they're just a bunch of middlemen whose only service WAS to bring acts to national attention. Now the internet does all that. More of the western music I listen to now is by independant artists than it is artists signed to a major record label. I can find their shit on the internet and (most of the time) legally download it for free cause artists in the past decade have found that revenue from music sales are tiny in comparison to revenue from selling merch and concert tickets. Middlemen have been edged out on the internet, where popularity is more found not by a large company trumpeting its wares but more by word-of-mouth, people telling other people about this hot musical act they found. Artists no longer need the services of record companies so now they're scrambling to find a way to make themselves relevant. And I agree with you at least in this- they're riding on popularizing completely manufactured super-artists like Justin Bieber and, yes, SNSD. I think you're being a bit ignorant regarding the music industry as a whole....im pretty sure CD sales are a bit more than tiny....and if you actually look at the details of many concerts you will see that the cost to run the concert compared with revenue of ticket sales are very close... But what you say about popularity not being found by large companies any more....they are. They have the most successful , by far. the big 3 Kpop companies have the most popular songs, most successful artists and as a result they are more successful on the whole. Sure there are others that, as you say, get spread around by word of mouth. Im pretty sure you haven't bought that much merchandise from those artists you are talking about, and im sure many others havent as well. They can survive, but to make the big bucks you need a big company behind you, and that is the most successful model so far.... and please don't call them fucking stupid, they have more education and experience than you and I combined I'm saying artists make much more from concerts and merch than they do CD sales. Don't believe me, ask the artists who put up their albums for free and ask them why. Their reasoning is my reasoning, I'm just parroting them. Not talking about the korean market, talking about Western. Also look up Busker Busker and look at their position on the charts. I can call them stupid if their actions are stupid, I don't care what school you went to because that's not necessarily an indication of intelligence.
Of course. Putting their CD up for free is a great way to get more fans and followers. It is not ideal for them at all but it is what works and it is how they survive. If it was their way they would make their CD's cost $$ but they know if they do that, their overall profit will be less. It is adapting to the market and times...
and yeah , busker busker has a great song! sometimes, whether it be busker, or Gotye, people like them because they are different and unique, and they emerge from the rubble. But if you want consistently high results and $$, then the big groups are the way to go
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also, just gonna throw this out there:
most small-time bands actually lose money on their concerts and tours. only the big time guys will actually make money (the guys the small-timers are opening for) off the shows.
the reason they are distributing their music for free is the same reason why people invest in a company that has yet to make a profit. they are banking on the idea of eventually being able to make money off of shows, digital sales, and merchandise. that is why so many small-time bands fail, and why musicians like Metallica (who get a lot of undeserved shit) say that pirating is destroying the music industry. it is really hard for a studio to justify recording a new, relatively unheard of band. and it is very very hard for a relatively unheard of band to actually make a living and be able to finance themselves. pirating isn't going away, and there are definitely ways to help yourself along with it, but the fact is that pirating doesn't really hurt Metallica all that much, but it really hurts the little guy.
also, merchandise before you have studio backing.... bad idea. first, the band has to pay for the shit to be made, and then they have to hope that someone buys a t-shirt. some people will, and some people can make a bit of cash that way... but in the long run it's a dead end. my brother's been in countless bands and it's the same thing every time.
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On July 12 2012 08:30 firehand101 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:25 DystopiaX wrote:On July 12 2012 08:21 firehand101 wrote:On July 12 2012 08:15 DystopiaX wrote:On July 12 2012 08:09 firehand101 wrote:On July 12 2012 08:05 DystopiaX wrote:
It hasn't. Look at the numbers. They support me. What do the music companies use?
Look at our RECORD SALES
guess what's going down? sales of physical media. Guess what's going up? Sales of digital media. Dude you cant really sit there and make claims on how multi-billion dollar corporations are stupid and dont know what they are doing.... File sharing did virtually kill physical media. Yes I agree that digital downloads are going up. The transition wasn't a full 100% conversion between the two. The music industry has had to change completely to compensate for the change...like ive been saying they have to market their idols so the masses will purchase their digital media They are fucking stupid. Being successful in a business model that became irrelevant over 10 years ago doesn't mean that you can be successful in a new one. I'd argue that more people are buying music digitally now than anyone ever bought music physically. I do agree that they have to market their idols for personalities, cause that's all they have left. Otherwise they're just a bunch of middlemen whose only service WAS to bring acts to national attention. Now the internet does all that. More of the western music I listen to now is by independant artists than it is artists signed to a major record label. I can find their shit on the internet and (most of the time) legally download it for free cause artists in the past decade have found that revenue from music sales are tiny in comparison to revenue from selling merch and concert tickets. Middlemen have been edged out on the internet, where popularity is more found not by a large company trumpeting its wares but more by word-of-mouth, people telling other people about this hot musical act they found. Artists no longer need the services of record companies so now they're scrambling to find a way to make themselves relevant. And I agree with you at least in this- they're riding on popularizing completely manufactured super-artists like Justin Bieber and, yes, SNSD. I think you're being a bit ignorant regarding the music industry as a whole....im pretty sure CD sales are a bit more than tiny....and if you actually look at the details of many concerts you will see that the cost to run the concert compared with revenue of ticket sales are very close... But what you say about popularity not being found by large companies any more....they are. They have the most successful , by far. the big 3 Kpop companies have the most popular songs, most successful artists and as a result they are more successful on the whole. Sure there are others that, as you say, get spread around by word of mouth. Im pretty sure you haven't bought that much merchandise from those artists you are talking about, and im sure many others havent as well. They can survive, but to make the big bucks you need a big company behind you, and that is the most successful model so far.... and please don't call them fucking stupid, they have more education and experience than you and I combined I'm saying artists make much more from concerts and merch than they do CD sales. Don't believe me, ask the artists who put up their albums for free and ask them why. Their reasoning is my reasoning, I'm just parroting them. Not talking about the korean market, talking about Western. Also look up Busker Busker and look at their position on the charts. I can call them stupid if their actions are stupid, I don't care what school you went to because that's not necessarily an indication of intelligence. Of course. Putting their CD up for free is a great way to get more fans and followers. It is not ideal for them at all but it is what works and it is how they survive. If it was their way they would make their CD's cost $$ but they know if they do that, their overall profit will be less. It is adapting to the market and times... and yeah , busker busker has a great song! sometimes, whether it be busker, or Gotye, people like them because they are different and unique, and they emerge from the rubble. But if you want consistently high results and $$, then the big groups are the way to go
lol so you agree with me...
profit comes more from merch sales and not from CD sales. Hence pirating is less harmful than people would have you believe.
One of my musician friends likes to say "if you like a band, pirate their music and buy a t-shirt".
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On July 12 2012 08:28 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:26 sgxmitchy wrote:On July 12 2012 08:16 DystopiaX wrote:On July 12 2012 08:12 hyszlan wrote:
@DystopiaX, Correct me if im wrong but changing the artist behind a certain song, actually makes it sound different and because of that the level of enjoyment will inevitably change. If its not a case where it actually happens to sound EXACTLY the same which I dont think siamese twins could pull off.
lets say, remove Hyorin from SISTAR, would you still enjoy their actual songs just as much? No, I agree with you in this. Firehand's argument was that if Let it be was from a completely different group and not the Beatles, but the music was exactly the same, Let It Be would be worse musically because it wouldn't have come from the Beatle's popularity. THAT I disagree with. @Moon- again that's not what I'm arguing. If you give the same song to 2 different singers of course they're gonna sound different. What Firehand is saying is not that they'll sound different, but that one will be better ONLY BECAUSE the artist is more popular. That's not what he's saying at all. He's saying that the exposure of the song to the public (its popularity) probably would have been less popular if given to a less popular group. Whether it would be worse musically would depend on the less popular group's skill to perform the song and that's it. He still has a point with prestige and reputation carrying songs. Also ITT: My idea of kpop are different than your idea of kpop. In the end, we all enjoy the same things for various reason. He has poor communication skills then Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:09 firehand101 wrote:
the group does impact how good the song is
Does a group not impact how good a song is? lol
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On July 12 2012 08:32 sgxmitchy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:28 DystopiaX wrote:On July 12 2012 08:26 sgxmitchy wrote:On July 12 2012 08:16 DystopiaX wrote:On July 12 2012 08:12 hyszlan wrote:
@DystopiaX, Correct me if im wrong but changing the artist behind a certain song, actually makes it sound different and because of that the level of enjoyment will inevitably change. If its not a case where it actually happens to sound EXACTLY the same which I dont think siamese twins could pull off.
lets say, remove Hyorin from SISTAR, would you still enjoy their actual songs just as much? No, I agree with you in this. Firehand's argument was that if Let it be was from a completely different group and not the Beatles, but the music was exactly the same, Let It Be would be worse musically because it wouldn't have come from the Beatle's popularity. THAT I disagree with. @Moon- again that's not what I'm arguing. If you give the same song to 2 different singers of course they're gonna sound different. What Firehand is saying is not that they'll sound different, but that one will be better ONLY BECAUSE the artist is more popular. That's not what he's saying at all. He's saying that the exposure of the song to the public (its popularity) probably would have been less popular if given to a less popular group. Whether it would be worse musically would depend on the less popular group's skill to perform the song and that's it. He still has a point with prestige and reputation carrying songs. Also ITT: My idea of kpop are different than your idea of kpop. In the end, we all enjoy the same things for various reason. He has poor communication skills then On July 12 2012 08:09 firehand101 wrote:
the group does impact how good the song is
Does a group not impact how good a song is? lol
In the context he said it he was saying if the sound was exactly the same that the group would influence how good the music is. even if they sounded identical.
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On July 12 2012 08:28 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:26 sgxmitchy wrote:On July 12 2012 08:16 DystopiaX wrote:On July 12 2012 08:12 hyszlan wrote:
@DystopiaX, Correct me if im wrong but changing the artist behind a certain song, actually makes it sound different and because of that the level of enjoyment will inevitably change. If its not a case where it actually happens to sound EXACTLY the same which I dont think siamese twins could pull off.
lets say, remove Hyorin from SISTAR, would you still enjoy their actual songs just as much? No, I agree with you in this. Firehand's argument was that if Let it be was from a completely different group and not the Beatles, but the music was exactly the same, Let It Be would be worse musically because it wouldn't have come from the Beatle's popularity. THAT I disagree with. @Moon- again that's not what I'm arguing. If you give the same song to 2 different singers of course they're gonna sound different. What Firehand is saying is not that they'll sound different, but that one will be better ONLY BECAUSE the artist is more popular. That's not what he's saying at all. He's saying that the exposure of the song to the public (its popularity) probably would have been less popular if given to a less popular group. Whether it would be worse musically would depend on the less popular group's skill to perform the song and that's it. He still has a point with prestige and reputation carrying songs. Also ITT: My idea of kpop are different than your idea of kpop. In the end, we all enjoy the same things for various reason. He has poor communication skills then Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:09 firehand101 wrote:
the group does impact how good the song is
no shit sherlock! Everything is just sound waves at the end of the day....so it is exactly the same musically...im saying that how those sound waves are perceived by the public are influenced by the group that has their name over them
EDIT: so due to that, it will be reviewed differently in magazines
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On July 12 2012 08:31 sc2superfan101 wrote:
also, just gonna throw this out there:
most small-time bands actually lose money on their concerts and tours. only the big time guys will actually make money (the guys the small-timers are opening for) off the shows.
the reason they are distributing their music for free is the same reason why people invest in a company that has yet to make a profit. they are banking on the idea of eventually being able to make money off of shows, digital sales, and merchandise. that is why so many small-time bands fail, and why musicians like Metallica (who get a lot of undeserved shit) say that pirating is destroying the music industry. it is really hard for a studio to justify recording a new, relatively unheard of band. and it is very very hard for a relatively unheard of band to actually make a living and be able to finance themselves. pirating isn't going away, and there are definitely ways to help yourself along with it, but the fact is that pirating doesn't really hurt Metallica all that much, but it really hurts the little guy.
also, merchandise before you have studio backing.... bad idea. first, the band has to pay for the shit to be made, and then they have to hope that someone buys a t-shirt. some people will, and some people can make a bit of cash that way... but in the long run it's a dead end. my brother's been in countless bands and it's the same thing every time.
illy <3
and at that post above me, i am the one in the grey top  those are my emotions haha
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On July 12 2012 08:33 firehand101 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:28 DystopiaX wrote:On July 12 2012 08:26 sgxmitchy wrote:On July 12 2012 08:16 DystopiaX wrote:On July 12 2012 08:12 hyszlan wrote:
@DystopiaX, Correct me if im wrong but changing the artist behind a certain song, actually makes it sound different and because of that the level of enjoyment will inevitably change. If its not a case where it actually happens to sound EXACTLY the same which I dont think siamese twins could pull off.
lets say, remove Hyorin from SISTAR, would you still enjoy their actual songs just as much? No, I agree with you in this. Firehand's argument was that if Let it be was from a completely different group and not the Beatles, but the music was exactly the same, Let It Be would be worse musically because it wouldn't have come from the Beatle's popularity. THAT I disagree with. @Moon- again that's not what I'm arguing. If you give the same song to 2 different singers of course they're gonna sound different. What Firehand is saying is not that they'll sound different, but that one will be better ONLY BECAUSE the artist is more popular. That's not what he's saying at all. He's saying that the exposure of the song to the public (its popularity) probably would have been less popular if given to a less popular group. Whether it would be worse musically would depend on the less popular group's skill to perform the song and that's it. He still has a point with prestige and reputation carrying songs. Also ITT: My idea of kpop are different than your idea of kpop. In the end, we all enjoy the same things for various reason. He has poor communication skills then On July 12 2012 08:09 firehand101 wrote:
the group does impact how good the song is
no shit sherlock! Everything is just sound waves at the end of the day....so it is exactly the same musically...im saying that how those sound waves are perceived by the public are influenced by the group that has their name over them EDIT: so due to that, it will be reviewed differently in magazines
Like I said then, you communicate really poorly.
And damn those pics are unflattering.
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I will weigh in here on why I don't think the world is ready for Korean music. Here in the UK we have a fairly diverse culture due to our past colonialism. It's quite the melting pot. Similar situation in the states, though for different reasons.
These immigrants/expats(/descendants of slaves) have brought their music and it has been adopted by the white entertainment industry for it's merits. Blues, Rock and roll, reggae, ska, hiphop etc. Asians really haven't had that effect. It's the other way around, they are listening to European classical, ballroom derivatives (trot) and now western pop/rock/hiphop and making their own.
For a culture's music to leak into the consciousness of what is becoming and increasingly global society, it must provide something new. Korea is not innovating, it is imitating.
If you can accept that and just enjoy the lovely sound of the Korean language instead of expecting the world to enjoy it with you, then you will be in for a lot less disappointment.
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we should post graphs more often, they can really get some shit going. Especially if they show nothing but quantity but are referred to when speaking about quality and improvements.
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On July 12 2012 08:36 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:33 firehand101 wrote:On July 12 2012 08:28 DystopiaX wrote:On July 12 2012 08:26 sgxmitchy wrote:On July 12 2012 08:16 DystopiaX wrote:On July 12 2012 08:12 hyszlan wrote:
@DystopiaX, Correct me if im wrong but changing the artist behind a certain song, actually makes it sound different and because of that the level of enjoyment will inevitably change. If its not a case where it actually happens to sound EXACTLY the same which I dont think siamese twins could pull off.
lets say, remove Hyorin from SISTAR, would you still enjoy their actual songs just as much? No, I agree with you in this. Firehand's argument was that if Let it be was from a completely different group and not the Beatles, but the music was exactly the same, Let It Be would be worse musically because it wouldn't have come from the Beatle's popularity. THAT I disagree with. @Moon- again that's not what I'm arguing. If you give the same song to 2 different singers of course they're gonna sound different. What Firehand is saying is not that they'll sound different, but that one will be better ONLY BECAUSE the artist is more popular. That's not what he's saying at all. He's saying that the exposure of the song to the public (its popularity) probably would have been less popular if given to a less popular group. Whether it would be worse musically would depend on the less popular group's skill to perform the song and that's it. He still has a point with prestige and reputation carrying songs. Also ITT: My idea of kpop are different than your idea of kpop. In the end, we all enjoy the same things for various reason. He has poor communication skills then On July 12 2012 08:09 firehand101 wrote:
the group does impact how good the song is
no shit sherlock! Everything is just sound waves at the end of the day....so it is exactly the same musically...im saying that how those sound waves are perceived by the public are influenced by the group that has their name over them EDIT: so due to that, it will be reviewed differently in magazines Like I said then, you communicate really poorly. And damn those pics are unflattering.
no, you just don't really understand what im saying. Heeeeeres the scenario:
There are music critics sitting in a room....3 parallel universes.
there is one song that is played in all 3...
in the first one, there is no mention of the artist at all, and they have to review it musically
in the second one, the artist is the biggest act in the world, and they review it
in the third, the artist is relatively unknown, and they review it
what I am trying to say is that all of these reviews will come out differently
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On July 12 2012 08:36 DystopiaX wrote:
And damn those pics are unflattering.
LOL no suzy :[
On July 12 2012 08:38 hyszlan wrote:
we should post graphs more often, they can really get some shit going. Especially if they show nothing but quantity but are referred to when speaking about quality and improvements.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LE0mo.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +not as funny as it could have been
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I also agree with that, because music critics are biased, either for big artists or against them.
Again nothing to do with the quality of the music itself.
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On July 12 2012 08:37 Vorgrim wrote:
I will weigh in here on why I don't think the world is ready for Korean music. Here in the UK we have a fairly diverse culture due to our past colonialism. It's quite the melting pot. Similar situation in the states, though for different reasons.
These immigrants/expats(/descendants of slaves) have brought their music and it has been adopted by the white entertainment industry for it's merits. Blues, Rock and roll, reggae, ska, hiphop etc. Asians really haven't had that effect. It's the other way around, they are listening to European classical, ballroom derivatives (trot) and now western pop/rock/hiphop and making their own.
For a culture's music to leak into the consciousness of what is becoming and increasingly global society, it must provide something new. Korea is not innovating, it is imitating.
If you can accept that and just enjoy the lovely sound of the Korean language instead of expecting the world to enjoy it with you, then you will be in for a lot less disappointment.
Didnt though of that, but agee 100%, no innovation means no reason to pick it up, than you can just listen to your own pop music.
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On July 12 2012 08:37 Vorgrim wrote:
I will weigh in here on why I don't think the world is ready for Korean music. Here in the UK we have a fairly diverse culture due to our past colonialism. It's quite the melting pot. Similar situation in the states, though for different reasons.
These immigrants/expats(/descendants of slaves) have brought their music and it has been adopted by the white entertainment industry for it's merits. Blues, Rock and roll, reggae, ska, hiphop etc. Asians really haven't had that effect. It's the other way around, they are listening to European classical, ballroom derivatives (trot) and now western pop/rock/hiphop and making their own.
For a culture's music to leak into the consciousness of what is becoming and increasingly global society, it must provide something new. Korea is not innovating, it is imitating.
If you can accept that and just enjoy the lovely sound of the Korean language instead of expecting the world to enjoy it with you, then you will be in for a lot less disappointment.
yes!! this is a great point sir.
Music is sound waves. People appreciate different sound waves because of the people that make it. Whether it is part of your culture, identity etc..
why the hell am i listening to pop..KOREAN POP.......that s not even my god damn language !!!!! I only know saranghe, thats it!
I started out loving metallica and megadeth...why? because I got a guitar.. This eventually led me to zeppelin, van halen etc etc.
why am i listening to korean sound waves now? STARCRAFT of course! my journey with starcraft has led me to love kpop, because i watch streams constantly. Kpop is on korean streams all the time. At the end of the day, regardless of the music, i listen to it to fit in this culture. That is what music is to most people . If you can just appreciate music for the sound waves it creates alone, then that is quite rare
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idk most of my friends and I have completely different music tastes. We like the shit we like because we like the music, not to fit in.
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On July 12 2012 08:45 DystopiaX wrote:
idk most of my friends and I have completely different music tastes. We like the shit we like because we like the music, not to fit in.
it could be true. Try look deeper than that though think of experiences you've had. Are there any artists you like in particular? what were you going through in your life when you looked them up?
The artists and their culture/message through their song connect with us, that is why we enjoy music at our most primitive level.
EDIT: do you think of the song itself, or the artist that accompanies it as well? They come together to create the whole image....
so back to my argument, im saying kpop has the artist as the larger part of that image, that is all
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On July 12 2012 08:45 DystopiaX wrote:
idk most of my friends and I have completely different music tastes. We like the shit we like because we like the music, not to fit in.
pretty much this, until I introduced them to Electroboyz - Ma boy 2(one of my favourites still), they got hook'd.
+ Show Spoiler +atleast some of them... :S
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