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I don't get why people still put up with half-baked adaptations when more often than not the source material is readily available* for you to continue.
What do you mean by half-baked adaptations? Are you referring to indefinitely unfinished (or worse, confirmed-to-be-left-forever-unfinished) anime adaptations? Or are you referring to adaptations which are decidedly inferior from an artistic or story perspective?
If it's the former, that's pretty simple. You can't always know what will keep being made, the only way around that is to assume that every adaptation will be left unfinished and only watch things years after they're done, if ever.
There's also the fact that some, despite being unfinished, are really well-realized and quite good at immersing the viewer into their world and story.
Either or both simultaniously (partial adaptation with anime original ending). Though i'm more annoyed at adaptations that take a ton of liberties for no good reason because the end result is nearly always worse than what a faithful adaptation would've been. If you're not going to faithfully adapt something you can adapt faithfully why even bother. Why not just do an anime original instead ?
You can't always know but you can guess based on how well it sold and how well it was received. I don't think anybody didn't expect Kodansha to greenlight more Monogatari seasons for example. It's a pain if you watch everything as it airs but that's just one of the risks of watching an airing show. The bold part is also pretty much me. I either move on or pick up the source if availble.
I'm fine incomplete adaptations as long as they cover the content well and put love into it (This season's Made in Abyss for example). Some producers/studies do actually want to adapt a work fully but lack the resources to do so, can't hate them for trying.
On September 28 2017 00:32 Lackbleeder wrote: *For manga atleast even though they tend to have dubious translations. If it was a LN you're probably not missing out on much anyway B]
Interesting anecdote but in my experience when you get to more obscure stuff, whether manga or LN, you simply can't find that stuff anywhere online in an English-translated format, not even if you are ok with resorting to piracy. And as you say, some of them are borderline where you can find them but the scan quality, translation quality, editing etc. can be very poor.
How obscure are we talking here ? LN translations are scarce but I haven't had any trouble finding manga scanlations for nearly eveything i've read so far (readability is another matter). Mangaupdates is really good for finding who scanlated what and how to find them.
On September 28 2017 00:32 Lackbleeder wrote: **Or in some cases the previous adaptation. Too many people just refuse to watch the LotGH OVA's because ew old art and will watch the remake instead even if there's a large enough chance that it's going to be inferior and/or incomplete (and then some of said people will beg for more seasons without cheking out the OVA's).
I also don't understand this irrational aversion to older anime, and sadly it's the same with live action films and games as well...
People just don't like stepping out of their comfort zone, especially not during their spare time when they want to have fun. It's understandable except for when they decide to watch an universally panned adaptation because they dislike the source's medium. This is then followed by complaining about the adaptation (and sometimes also attacking the source material for good measure).
On September 28 2017 00:46 Numy wrote: I'm not a fan of manga as a medium so I don't go read source after they don't adapt it. Telling people to read the source is awful.
Not everybody doesn't read the source because they're adamant on their dislike for its medium though. There's people who simply don't know some unfinished shows are adaptations and would love to cotinue with the source while others haven't given the source's medium a shot because they didn't find anything appealing yet. You hear people say I hated X medium until I watched/read/played Y all the time so why would it be awful to recommend them the source ? Better to at least let them know even if some might get annoyed rather than not saying anything at all.
On September 28 2017 03:21 felisconcolori wrote: I mean, that'd be right up there with people that read Game of Thrones getting told "Oh, GRRM writes too slowly? Just watch the show, it's past the books." If they aren't watching the show already, it's because they'd rather read the books.
Maybe in a world where books and television are equally popular sure. If somebody picks up the GoT novels they're probably aware about the TV series and decide to read the books instead but you can't say the same for the TV watchers (atleast not to the same extent).
It's a tired excuse that if you have been in the community for any decent amount of time have heard a million times. It doesn't change anything and just serves to annoy people that are upset over incomplete adaptions. Telling people that it's an adaption and where they can find the source is fine. Excusing shoddy, incomplete adaptions through the "go read source" is just not something that should ever be done.
This kind of mentality seems to be something that is largely found in anime community and no where else. When a western novel is poorly adapted or incomplete people just get upset at the adaption instead of saying it's ok because there's still t he source. Wonder why this happens in anime> Wonder why people are perfectly accepting of blatant advertisements like that?
edit:I'm also perfectly happy with adaptions that do take liberties if those liberties serve a purpose that make it something new/original and add to the story. There have been plenty of these done throughout media. Ghost in the Shell, The Shining, Lord of the Rings etc. Jojo as well actually, they adapted it super faithfully yet still toyed around with pacing and some small changes to improve its flow as an anime. After all you are converting a story from one medium to another. Trying to go 1-1 is not properly utilizing the anime medium.
I used to be firmly in the "adaptions must be 100% the same raaaawr" but over time I've found the value in working with the story in a different medium.
On September 28 2017 03:58 Toadesstern wrote: I don't mind "go read the source" thaaaat much tbh. In a lot of cases I do end up reading the source. Almost never the case with Manga since I don't really like Manga as a medium but with LNs it happens a bunch. And when it doesn't happen that just goes to show that I probably didn't like the series that much anyways.
I think KonoSuba is the only thing I read before having watched the anime? That being said, "go read the source"-endings are still horrible as they, more often than not, end the series with some huge cliffhanger with no season2 or anything else in sight so from an anime-pov it's awful. But there are certainly examples that were done decently, without massive cliffhangers while you're still aware that there's more out there if you want to read the source
A bit unrelated but since I brought up what was good and what wasn't for me personally, I'll have to say that this season really ended up being one of the better ones for me. A lot of really good shows that all individually could have carried some weaker seasons all by themselves.
I guess I'm contrary to most of the denizens of this thread. I read mostly manga/LN source material and get excited when there's an anime adaptation announced and watch it cause it's charas I like moving around. I find anime as a medium more tedious and far less nuanced as a form of story telling cause it's severely limited by time and budget.
That said, I usually have little faith in said adaptations and it continues to dwindle over time. Those "go read the source" endings are typically so half assed that leave the series on such a bad note. An example of this would be Akashic Records from last season. It's a silly fantasy series with an interesting MC but the pacing was so off where the anime ends in the middle of a volume. All I'm left with is going, "Oh, at least I saw some Serika deredere. There's that."
Youkoso and Kakegurui are also examples of shitty adaptions from this season that makes me wonder why viewers would want to check out the source when the anime did the series such a disservice.
I don't get why you wouldn't like manga, it's basically the same as anime but not animated.
One annoying thing about adaptions is I'll read the manga and then not want to watch the anime because I already know what's going to happen. Like I couldn't get into Boku no Hero academy or keep watching One Piece anime when I'm already dozens of chapters ahead in the manga.
The source usually has more content and is just better though...
I think "go read the source" is a perfectly legit reaponse. The anime industry has shit margins and you are not going to animate a full series that has 7-20 volumes of content u less the anime also is a huge success.
And to be blunt, a lot of people get these things for free and don't support the industry so fuck em. Go read the source or better yet buy the source.
You can't always know but you can guess based on how well it sold and how well it was received. I don't think anybody didn't expect Kodansha to greenlight more Monogatari seasons for example.
If only this were true... Too many examples acting against this sound logic recently, unfortunately.
On September 28 2017 00:32 Lackbleeder wrote: *For manga atleast even though they tend to have dubious translations. If it was a LN you're probably not missing out on much anyway B]
Interesting anecdote but in my experience when you get to more obscure stuff, whether manga or LN, you simply can't find that stuff anywhere online in an English-translated format, not even if you are ok with resorting to piracy. And as you say, some of them are borderline where you can find them but the scan quality, translation quality, editing etc. can be very poor.
How obscure are we talking here ? LN translations are scarce but I haven't had any trouble finding manga scanlations for nearly eveything i've read so far (readability is another matter). Mangaupdates is really good for finding who scanlated what and how to find them.
To be honest I don't remember the manga examples that well. The one that sticks out the most is that I really liked Eve no Jikan, so when I found out that they adapted it into a manga as well as a LN afterwards (as opposed to those being the source material) I tried finding those in the hopes that maybe they have some extra content or something. But I couldn't find pretty much anything about the LN, and the manga that's online is only one volume out of three.
I know for sure I was unable to find the complete manga for some obscure romance anime that I've watched. I also remember finding out about a romance manga in one of those list articles that the MAL staff put out sometimes, but when I looked it up the fan translation sites were several volumes behind.
On September 28 2017 04:41 Slaughter wrote: I think "go read the source" is a perfectly legit reaponse. The anime industry has shit margins and you are not going to animate a full series that has 7-20 volumes of content u less the anime also is a huge success.
And to be blunt, a lot of people get these things for free and don't support the industry so fuck em. Go read the source or better yet buy the source.
On September 28 2017 04:21 Numy wrote: It's a tired excuse that if you have been in the community for any decent amount of time have heard a million times. It doesn't change anything and just serves to annoy people that are upset over incomplete adaptions. Telling people that it's an adaption and where they can find the source is fine. Excusing shoddy, incomplete adaptions through the "go read source" is just not something that should ever be done.
This kind of mentality seems to be something that is largely found in anime community and no where else. When a western novel is poorly adapted or incomplete people just get upset at the adaption instead of saying it's ok because there's still t he source. Wonder why this happens in anime> Wonder why people are perfectly accepting of blatant advertisements like that?
edit:I'm also perfectly happy with adaptions that do take liberties if those liberties serve a purpose that make it something new/original and add to the story. There have been plenty of these done throughout media. Ghost in the Shell, The Shining, Lord of the Rings etc. Jojo as well actually, they adapted it super faithfully yet still toyed around with pacing and some small changes to improve its flow as an anime. After all you are converting a story from one medium to another. Trying to go 1-1 is not properly utilizing the anime medium.
I used to be firmly in the "adaptions must be 100% the same raaaawr" but over time I've found the value in working with the story in a different medium.
I agree with a lot of this. I also agree that sticking to the source material is not in every conceivable situation beneficial.
Easiest example I can think of is the old Hellsing anime done by Gonzo. Despite having so little to work with in terms of story and a very Gonzo-esque budget, they managed to inject a lot of atmosphere and subtle character into it that was painfully absent from Ultimate. The characters in Ultimate felt so 1-dimensional, flat and childish by comparison. Let's turn Alucard from a suave and mysterious badass into an asshole psychopath. Let's turn Victoria from a nuanced and interesting character into a fucking comic relief boob joke and chibi gag delivery mechanism and also a psychopath.
Kids be like "but Ultimate is better cuz muh manga" LOL if the manga's writing is the same as Ultimate's then the guy who wrote it must have the mental maturity and writing talent of a 13 year old edgelord. Why copy something bad when you can make up something good in its stead?
I mean don't get me wrong it's fine to prefer Ultimate because of the action and production values, nothing wrong with that; just don't go around saying it's flat out better because it's not, the old series had much better writing and atmosphere.
On September 28 2017 04:39 ShurykaN wrote: I don't get why you wouldn't like manga, it's basically the same as anime but not animated.
I'm not one of these people, but I don't see what's so hard to get.
It's like comparing books to film. Or board games / pen & paper to video games.
The Audio-Visual component is important to a lot of people mostly for accessibility and immersion reasons, as well as opening up the possibilities for the stories told and the means of telling them and allowing different dimensions of artistic expression.
On September 28 2017 04:41 Slaughter wrote: I think "go read the source" is a perfectly legit reaponse. The anime industry has shit margins and you are not going to animate a full series that has 7-20 volumes of content u less the anime also is a huge success.
And to be blunt, a lot of people get these things for free and don't support the industry so fuck em. Go read the source or better yet buy the source.
agree
I agree that if something isn't fully adapted, saying "check out the source" is reasonable but for me, things like Tales of Zesteria which was a blatant advertisement are outright terrible.
On September 28 2017 04:39 ShurykaN wrote: I don't get why you wouldn't like manga, it's basically the same as anime but not animated.
I'm not one of these people, but I don't see what's so hard to get.
It's like comparing books to film. Or board games / pen & paper to video games.
The Audio-Visual component is important to a lot of people mostly for accessibility and immersion reasons, as well as opening up the possibilities for the stories told and the means of telling them and allowing different dimensions of artistic expression.
Yea man I don't get what these guys are on about. Feel it's scoffing off the potential of the medium and all the cool things people have done throughout it's history. I was just telling Neo if you watch anything from Satoshi Kon you realize just how much space there is to work within the medium that isn't being exploring. Telling me anime is basically manga is just insulting to those guys man.
On September 28 2017 03:21 felisconcolori wrote: I mean, that'd be right up there with people that read Game of Thrones getting told "Oh, GRRM writes too slowly? Just watch the show, it's past the books." If they aren't watching the show already, it's because they'd rather read the books.
Maybe in a world where books and television are equally popular sure. If somebody picks up the GoT novels they're probably aware about the TV series and decide to read the books instead but you can't say the same for the TV watchers (atleast not to the same extent).
There are a number of people, myself included, who read the entire (then current) series of books before HBO even started to think of producing the TV show. (HBO optioned the series in 2007, started in 2011 about two months before the most recent book was released.)
GRRM literally has taken 6 years between books; the last one and the most current, and he's rapidly getting to past 6 years on this next one. I don't (anymore) complain about the time it takes an author to write the next book in a series; it can lead to some issues (ie, the potential that an author dies prior to the series being completed as was the case with Wheel of Time and Robert Jordan) but I've exchanged enough words with well known authors to understand their very valid points regarding the writing process and the publishing process. It can take time; it's not always good for them to power through one series writing nonstop especially if their interest in the story or world wanes because of always being hip deep in it. Some authors can, some authors can't.
But your reply here suggests that a lot of people weren't already invested in GoT prior to the TV series, and I think that's not a fair assessment. The novels were popular before the TV series (leading to HBO wanting to make a series) although it's safe to say that they've become more popular as a result of the series. The series is a different work entirely, although it follows the same general story and I think GRRM has said that the series may or may not end the same in the TV and books.
On September 28 2017 04:41 Slaughter wrote: I think "go read the source" is a perfectly legit reaponse. The anime industry has shit margins and you are not going to animate a full series that has 7-20 volumes of content u less the anime also is a huge success.
And to be blunt, a lot of people get these things for free and don't support the industry so fuck em. Go read the source or better yet buy the source.
In some cases, yeah, it can be a reasonable response. It's just the shows whose entire purpose is to draw in people then shovel them off to the source that are obnoxious. As for shit margins... that could be improved. I think the anime industry as a whole are only recently beginning to try and move people away from fansubs by trying to reach out towards the Western fanbase, which may outnumber the Japanese fanbase but who also tend to be shocked by the Japanese pricing of some BDs. I know there are translations for (as an example) Nisio Isin's books out there on the interwebs - I read one of Kizu because I kept wanting to find out what happened during Spring Break and there wasn't any legal way for me to do so (and the movies weren't even announced yet). When the official LNs started coming out from Vertical, I've been buying those; I'd like for Nisio Isin to get some money for giving me some good entertainment. (Same as I use the legal streaming services; I want to make sure P.A. Works, Shaft, etc., get paid.)
Kizu was ANNOUNCED super early. It just took them 10 years to actually deliver that promise
I do remember the announcement for Nisemonogatari being at a Kizumonogatari event for example. Oh it was actually nisio ishin event in general but still:
I'll see if I can find one with less potato quality
On September 28 2017 05:14 felisconcolori wrote: It's just the shows whose entire purpose is to draw in people then shovel them off to the source that are obnoxious.
Doubly obnoxious when said short anime is actually good.
On September 28 2017 05:14 felisconcolori wrote: As for shit margins... that could be improved. I think the anime industry as a whole are only recently beginning to try and move people away from fansubs by trying to reach out towards the Western fanbase, which may outnumber the Japanese fanbase but who also tend to be shocked by the Japanese pricing of some BDs. I know there are translations for (as an example) Nisio Isin's books out there on the interwebs - I read one of Kizu because I kept wanting to find out what happened during Spring Break and there wasn't any legal way for me to do so (and the movies weren't even announced yet). When the official LNs started coming out from Vertical, I've been buying those; I'd like for Nisio Isin to get some money for giving me some good entertainment. (Same as I use the legal streaming services; I want to make sure P.A. Works, Shaft, etc., get paid.)
It's a shame how ass-backwards many of these companies are, they seem to be operating on principles that predate globalization and end up shooting themselves in the foot by vastly limiting the number of people that can legally obtain their products. This is where the standard internet white knighting of "but companies need to make money wah wah blah blah" falls apart, when you see them continue to ignore an ever-growing and surprisingly dedicated potential customer base outside of Japan and instead act like it's still the 1950s. It's the same in gaming with Nintendo's artificial scarcity and Japanese game publishers not understanding how internet videos work, why free advertising is good or why it might not be a bad idea to port games to PC (and make the port not fucking garbage).
I also wouldn't be at all opposed to crowdfunding for anime...
Even things as popular as Index took forever to get more seasons (I think it has been announced they are finally doing more).
I mean fucking SAO has only had 2 seasons of anime in 5 years (8 years since the LN's debut) despite printing money out the ass on every conceivable front.
SnK just got its 2nd season this year, after 4 years of waiting and a similar commercial success across the board.
God only knows what the fuck they're thinking. I'll admit I haven't followed these series closely at all, but surely it can't just be for lack of source material?
I think with anime getting 2nd or 3rd seasons it's some kind of weird balance in how much it sells or doesn't sell. Obviously if it doesn't sell at all you're not going to get anything after that because people are losing money on making it into anime. But if shit gets super popular and sells like hotcakes it doesn't tend to get more seasons instantly either. Look at SAO like mentioned above, look at sasuonii, look at Index (also mentioned above). At the very least I wouldn't be surprised if the publisher doesn't want to spend more money on anime at that point because for them everything that matters (the LNs) are selling like crazy anyways so why invest more now? Instead wait until sales dip a bit and maybe get some hype later on (movies à la NGNL, SAO, sasuonii, etc) and you'll get way more out of it.
So imo to get a season2, season3 or whatever you probably have to be in that weird balance of beeing the top hit of the seasosn, maybe top3 hit lots of sales but not on the levels of SnK, SAO or else people will just sit back and watch the money flowing in without having to do anything.
That being said, with SnK turning out the way it did, maybe higher-ups do realize that letting people wait for years to milk out the hype the most does have some risks to it. I'm sure SnK s2 would have sold shittons more had they pushed that out sooner
Ah, yeah. When I found Bakemonogatari and started watching it, I wasn't aware of the Kizu announcement until much later. Memory fail.
Crowdfunding anime would be interesting to see work, but given that production involves multiple studios and that crowdfunding doesn't seem to be as popular in Japan, it might be awhile before something like that happens. I think it's more likely that Western conglomerates start funding production, similar to how Comcast-Universal has done and some other players (Amazon, Netflix) have started to do. I worry that this may change the focus in some anime, though, but that's a style thing and at this point anime is more of a series of styles and settings. I wouldn't want to see, for example, an anime-style SoL love story based on the American education system - not because it might not be good, but just because I'm used to seeing anime as being culturally based around Japanese culture. Could be good, might not be, won't know until we see how it works out over the long term. Also, with other issues going on in Japan, the industry does have a rather small pool of resources to draw on in terms of artists, authors, etc. Outside (Korean, Chinese) companies that used to do mostly the "in-betweening" or similar work are starting to handle full projects, Japan is looking at maybe loosening up the requirements for people to live, study, and work in Japan who are not citizens, etc.
I don't think Japan is necessarily anti-global marketplace - their transportation and manufacturing companies are fully there even if they export middle to high level managers from Japan to oversee things done locally in the US - it's just that some industries have been slower in seeing their products might have a wider audience. Also, culturally, Japan is the primary focus - for just about everyone (makes sense, it's their home country) I've talked to and met (business wise) in a business setting. (I see the same with people from other countries that I interact with, but I think there's a much stronger sense of Japanese unified identity - the US branch of a Japanese company has to be run just as well as a branch in Japan and the corporate policies are usually no different. At least at the companies I've been involved with.)
On September 28 2017 06:01 Toadesstern wrote: At the very least I wouldn't be surprised if the publisher doesn't want to spend more money on anime at that point because for them everything that matters (the LNs) are selling like crazy anyways so why invest more now?
Yeah, that also has a lot to do with it I think. The primary driver for anime usually isn't anime sales though it doesn't hurt - the backers are generally publishers that want people buying more books. Might be why anime-original series might be more likely to get more seasons? I dunno, I'd have look deeper into the longevity of anime original vs. anime based on LN/Manga
from how I understood it it's just not that everything they make money with gets put into a big pot and in the end the people who spend money on it end up with a share depending on what they paid in in the first place. That means, if you're selling toys for a series you don't give a fuck about BD sales or source sales. If you're the one selling the music for the anime you don't really care about them either, or toys for that matter. So I'd assume you have to get "everyone" back on board more or less.
BD/source sales is kind of like the weakest link (depends on series obviously, but we're discussing these kind of series. For large shows for kids or gundam it's probably all in merch) If that fails it's pretty unlikely for something to get together again. But in the case of a success source sales become the weakest link I think simply because the publisher, like I mentioned, is probably already happy about how many people are now buying the books and making another season wouldn't really change that all that much. Or so I'd assume. Just speculation on my part
EPT
