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On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything...
+ Show Spoiler +In regards to the bolded, counter-guardians have most definitely been explained and mentioned. From episode 1 of the second cour: Rin: "When was it that i finally figured out what that dream really was? That it was a certain heroic spirit's mental landscape. Among many heroic spirits, the servants, there are special servants that are safeguards, called "protectors." They are summoned into the various ages, and prevent the human world's destruction. No, more accurately, they prevent the human race from destroying itself. Even though he was summoned to save humanity, before he could save them, he was first forced to clean up the messes that humans had made. It didn't take many summonings for him to determine that it was futile and start despising the human world. In the end, he continued to be betrayed by his ideal, even after death." This is with CRs subs, they decided to translate the guardians as protectors but it's the same thing really. And as you can see, this is why archer wants to kill shirou, to maybe, just maybe free himself from this loop of misery. Also, how can you not know about shirou's 'parental line'? It's been a huge part of the story that he was orphaned and then adopted, that entire event is what makes shirou the character that he is. And the pendant IS rin's pendant, a memento from her father, however, after saving shirou's life the pendant ends up in shirou's hands and when archer gives back rin a pendant it's not the current shirou got but the one shirou would end up carrying with him even many years from now. The reason why rin was surprised is because, there should only be one of this pendant but currently there are two.
On May 05 2015 05:45 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +
Pretty sure they explained that he was in a mass disaster situation and was rescued and then adopted by his father. The pendant was how they were trying to tip off the audience because where there should only be 1 is now 2. Rin even bold faced told Shirou and the audience that there is "magically" 2 pendants when there should only be one like 1-2 episodes ago. She brought the pendant and used to to save shirou's life when he got stabbed with by lancer, she then clearly left it next to Shirou. Cue next scene of Archer giving her the pendant and Shirou waking up to find a pendant at the same time. He does know Saber from the past, from when he participated in the grail war as a young Shirou (Some say he is the product of the Fate route). The counter-guardian stuff is irrelevant at this point.
+ Show Spoiler +Archer isn't the product of the fate route, from a Q&A with someone asking about if the HF route is where shirou becomes archer: A: I’ll just say now that he doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit in any of the routes, but the possibility is still present in all of them as well. Basically, the probability of it happening is almost zero.
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On May 05 2015 05:45 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +In regards to the bolded, counter-guardians have most definitely been explained and mentioned. From episode 1 of the second cour: Rin: "When was it that i finally figured out what that dream really was? That it was a certain heroic spirit's mental landscape. Among many heroic spirits, the servants, there are special servants that are safeguards, called "protectors." They are summoned into the various ages, and prevent the human world's destruction. No, more accurately, they prevent the human race from destroying itself. Even though he was summoned to save humanity, before he could save them, he was first forced to clean up the messes that humans had made. It didn't take many summonings for him to determine that it was futile and start despising the human world. In the end, he continued to be betrayed by his ideal, even after death." This is with CRs subs, they decided to translate the guardians as protectors but it's the same thing really. And as you can see, this is why archer wants to kill shirou, to maybe, just maybe free himself from this loop of misery. Also, how can you not know about shirou's 'parental line'? It's been a huge part of the story that he was orphaned and then adopted, that entire event is what makes shirou the character that he is. And the pendant IS rin's pendant, a memento from her father, however, after saving shirou's life the pendant ends up in shirou's hands and when archer gives back rin a pendant it's not the current shirou got but the one shirou would end up carrying with him even many years from now. The reason why rin was surprised is because, there should only be one of this pendant but currently there are two. Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 05:45 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +
Pretty sure they explained that he was in a mass disaster situation and was rescued and then adopted by his father. The pendant was how they were trying to tip off the audience because where there should only be 1 is now 2. Rin even bold faced told Shirou and the audience that there is "magically" 2 pendants when there should only be one like 1-2 episodes ago. She brought the pendant and used to to save shirou's life when he got stabbed with by lancer, she then clearly left it next to Shirou. Cue next scene of Archer giving her the pendant and Shirou waking up to find a pendant at the same time. He does know Saber from the past, from when he participated in the grail war as a young Shirou (Some say he is the product of the Fate route). The counter-guardian stuff is irrelevant at this point.
+ Show Spoiler +Archer isn't the product of the fate route, from a Q&A with someone asking about if the HF route is where shirou becomes archer: A: I’ll just say now that he doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit in any of the routes, but the possibility is still present in all of them as well. Basically, the probability of it happening is almost zero.
Well it happened in some scenario because Archer + Show Spoiler +clearly participated in the grail war back when he was a kid.
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On May 05 2015 05:53 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 05:45 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +In regards to the bolded, counter-guardians have most definitely been explained and mentioned. From episode 1 of the second cour: Rin: "When was it that i finally figured out what that dream really was? That it was a certain heroic spirit's mental landscape. Among many heroic spirits, the servants, there are special servants that are safeguards, called "protectors." They are summoned into the various ages, and prevent the human world's destruction. No, more accurately, they prevent the human race from destroying itself. Even though he was summoned to save humanity, before he could save them, he was first forced to clean up the messes that humans had made. It didn't take many summonings for him to determine that it was futile and start despising the human world. In the end, he continued to be betrayed by his ideal, even after death." This is with CRs subs, they decided to translate the guardians as protectors but it's the same thing really. And as you can see, this is why archer wants to kill shirou, to maybe, just maybe free himself from this loop of misery. Also, how can you not know about shirou's 'parental line'? It's been a huge part of the story that he was orphaned and then adopted, that entire event is what makes shirou the character that he is. And the pendant IS rin's pendant, a memento from her father, however, after saving shirou's life the pendant ends up in shirou's hands and when archer gives back rin a pendant it's not the current shirou got but the one shirou would end up carrying with him even many years from now. The reason why rin was surprised is because, there should only be one of this pendant but currently there are two. On May 05 2015 05:45 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +
Pretty sure they explained that he was in a mass disaster situation and was rescued and then adopted by his father. The pendant was how they were trying to tip off the audience because where there should only be 1 is now 2. Rin even bold faced told Shirou and the audience that there is "magically" 2 pendants when there should only be one like 1-2 episodes ago. She brought the pendant and used to to save shirou's life when he got stabbed with by lancer, she then clearly left it next to Shirou. Cue next scene of Archer giving her the pendant and Shirou waking up to find a pendant at the same time. He does know Saber from the past, from when he participated in the grail war as a young Shirou (Some say he is the product of the Fate route). The counter-guardian stuff is irrelevant at this point.
+ Show Spoiler +Archer isn't the product of the fate route, from a Q&A with someone asking about if the HF route is where shirou becomes archer: A: I’ll just say now that he doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit in any of the routes, but the possibility is still present in all of them as well. Basically, the probability of it happening is almost zero. Well it happened in some scenario because Archer + Show Spoiler +clearly participated in the grail war back when he was a kid.
+ Show Spoiler +Archer can basically be the product of any one of the routes, but the chance of the shirou we're currently following becoming archer is almost zero.
You have to imagine that if the events of the UBW route played out 10k times then maybe one of those times shirou ends up as archer.
The answer i posted in my previous post is from Nasu, so it's basically 'word of god' in regards to fate i suppose
|
On May 05 2015 05:54 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 05:53 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:45 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +In regards to the bolded, counter-guardians have most definitely been explained and mentioned. From episode 1 of the second cour: Rin: "When was it that i finally figured out what that dream really was? That it was a certain heroic spirit's mental landscape. Among many heroic spirits, the servants, there are special servants that are safeguards, called "protectors." They are summoned into the various ages, and prevent the human world's destruction. No, more accurately, they prevent the human race from destroying itself. Even though he was summoned to save humanity, before he could save them, he was first forced to clean up the messes that humans had made. It didn't take many summonings for him to determine that it was futile and start despising the human world. In the end, he continued to be betrayed by his ideal, even after death." This is with CRs subs, they decided to translate the guardians as protectors but it's the same thing really. And as you can see, this is why archer wants to kill shirou, to maybe, just maybe free himself from this loop of misery. Also, how can you not know about shirou's 'parental line'? It's been a huge part of the story that he was orphaned and then adopted, that entire event is what makes shirou the character that he is. And the pendant IS rin's pendant, a memento from her father, however, after saving shirou's life the pendant ends up in shirou's hands and when archer gives back rin a pendant it's not the current shirou got but the one shirou would end up carrying with him even many years from now. The reason why rin was surprised is because, there should only be one of this pendant but currently there are two. On May 05 2015 05:45 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +
Pretty sure they explained that he was in a mass disaster situation and was rescued and then adopted by his father. The pendant was how they were trying to tip off the audience because where there should only be 1 is now 2. Rin even bold faced told Shirou and the audience that there is "magically" 2 pendants when there should only be one like 1-2 episodes ago. She brought the pendant and used to to save shirou's life when he got stabbed with by lancer, she then clearly left it next to Shirou. Cue next scene of Archer giving her the pendant and Shirou waking up to find a pendant at the same time. He does know Saber from the past, from when he participated in the grail war as a young Shirou (Some say he is the product of the Fate route). The counter-guardian stuff is irrelevant at this point.
+ Show Spoiler +Archer isn't the product of the fate route, from a Q&A with someone asking about if the HF route is where shirou becomes archer: A: I’ll just say now that he doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit in any of the routes, but the possibility is still present in all of them as well. Basically, the probability of it happening is almost zero. Well it happened in some scenario because Archer + Show Spoiler +clearly participated in the grail war back when he was a kid. + Show Spoiler +Archer can basically be the product of any one of the routes, but the chance of the shirou we're currently following becoming archer is almost zero.
You have to imagine that if the events of the UBW route played out 10k times then maybe one of those times shirou ends up as archer.
The answer i posted in my previous post is from Nasu, so it's basically 'word of god' in regards to fate i suppose
+ Show Spoiler +It's basically an issue of time travel. Archer has to be a product of a grail war that didn't summon Shirou as a servant. That's why archer isn't a product of any of the "routes" we read because all of them contain Archer.
|
On May 05 2015 05:45 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +
Pretty sure they explained and showed that he was in a mass disaster situation and was rescued and then adopted by his father. The pendant was how they were trying to tip off the audience because where there should only be 1 is now 2. Rin even bold faced told Shirou and the audience that there is "magically" 2 pendants when there should only be one like 1-2 episodes ago. She brought the pendant and used to to save shirou's life when he got stabbed by lancer, she then clearly left it next to Shirou. Cue next scene of Archer giving her the pendant and Shirou waking up to find a pendant at the same time. He does know Saber from the past, from when he participated in the grail war as a young Shirou (Some say he is the product of the Fate route). The counter-guardian stuff is irrelevant at this point.
+ Show Spoiler +Sure they showed the part where he was an orphan and got adapted. But they never said anything "useful" about his parents?
For the pendant: Alright, I didn't connect that at all, lol. Did Archer play Rin when he gave her the pendant?
On May 05 2015 05:45 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +In regards to the bolded, counter-guardians have most definitely been explained and mentioned. From episode 1 of the second cour: Rin: "When was it that i finally figured out what that dream really was? That it was a certain heroic spirit's mental landscape. Among many heroic spirits, the servants, there are special servants that are safeguards, called "protectors." They are summoned into the various ages, and prevent the human world's destruction. No, more accurately, they prevent the human race from destroying itself. Even though he was summoned to save humanity, before he could save them, he was first forced to clean up the messes that humans had made. It didn't take many summonings for him to determine that it was futile and start despising the human world. In the end, he continued to be betrayed by his ideal, even after death." This is with CRs subs, they decided to translate the guardians as protectors but it's the same thing really. And as you can see, this is why archer wants to kill shirou, to maybe, just maybe free himself from this loop of misery. Also, how can you not know about shirou's 'parental line'? It's been a huge part of the story that he was orphaned and then adopted, that entire event is what makes shirou the character that he is. And the pendant IS rin's pendant, a memento from her father, however, after saving shirou's life the pendant ends up in shirou's hands and when archer gives back rin a pendant it's not the current shirou got but the one shirou would end up carrying with him even many years from now. The reason why rin was surprised is because, there should only be one of this pendant but currently there are two.
+ Show Spoiler +Well, the above quote doesn't connect Archer to Shirou in any way. The mess could be anything. And even if Shirou is the mess he has to clean up that doesn't hint at them being the same person.
|
On May 05 2015 06:01 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 05:45 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +
Pretty sure they explained and showed that he was in a mass disaster situation and was rescued and then adopted by his father. The pendant was how they were trying to tip off the audience because where there should only be 1 is now 2. Rin even bold faced told Shirou and the audience that there is "magically" 2 pendants when there should only be one like 1-2 episodes ago. She brought the pendant and used to to save shirou's life when he got stabbed by lancer, she then clearly left it next to Shirou. Cue next scene of Archer giving her the pendant and Shirou waking up to find a pendant at the same time. He does know Saber from the past, from when he participated in the grail war as a young Shirou (Some say he is the product of the Fate route). The counter-guardian stuff is irrelevant at this point.
+ Show Spoiler +Sure they showed the part where he was an orphan and got adapted. But they never said anything "useful" about his parents?
For the pendant: Alright, I didn't connect that at all, lol. Did Archer play Rin when he gave her the pendant? Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 05:45 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +In regards to the bolded, counter-guardians have most definitely been explained and mentioned. From episode 1 of the second cour: Rin: "When was it that i finally figured out what that dream really was? That it was a certain heroic spirit's mental landscape. Among many heroic spirits, the servants, there are special servants that are safeguards, called "protectors." They are summoned into the various ages, and prevent the human world's destruction. No, more accurately, they prevent the human race from destroying itself. Even though he was summoned to save humanity, before he could save them, he was first forced to clean up the messes that humans had made. It didn't take many summonings for him to determine that it was futile and start despising the human world. In the end, he continued to be betrayed by his ideal, even after death." This is with CRs subs, they decided to translate the guardians as protectors but it's the same thing really. And as you can see, this is why archer wants to kill shirou, to maybe, just maybe free himself from this loop of misery. Also, how can you not know about shirou's 'parental line'? It's been a huge part of the story that he was orphaned and then adopted, that entire event is what makes shirou the character that he is. And the pendant IS rin's pendant, a memento from her father, however, after saving shirou's life the pendant ends up in shirou's hands and when archer gives back rin a pendant it's not the current shirou got but the one shirou would end up carrying with him even many years from now. The reason why rin was surprised is because, there should only be one of this pendant but currently there are two. + Show Spoiler +Well, the above quote doesn't connect Archer to Shirou in any way. The mess could be anything. And even if Shirou is the mess he has to clean up that doesn't hint at them being the same person.
+ Show Spoiler +That quote isn't about connecting archer to shirou, i even said that it was in regards to the bolded about you saying that they didn't mention or explain counter-guardians at all when it's one of the first things the anime does in cour 2.
Him being a counter guardian also isn't why he's summoned to the grail war either, those two things are completely unrelated.
Basically, at some point in his life, a Shirou of another time-line becomes a counter guardian and this turns out to be a turboshitty decision because instead of saving people what actually happens is that he's summoned to kill humans before humans destroy themselves, this turns him into the cynical archer we now know that despises his old ideals.
This archer is now summoned by Rin because of the pendant being used as the catalyst, remember that you need something connected to the servant you're trying to summon, in this case the pendant served as the catalyst for Rin to summon Archer.
Now archer believes that if he kills shirou then maybe, just maybe he can be freed from being a counter-guardian.
That's why he's trying so hard to kill shirou.
I'm sorry but the series really does make it fairly obvious what Archer's identity is if you're able to pick up on the shitton of clues and hints they're throwing at the viewer.
Although honestly, the biggest thing connecting the two is their magic.
|
On May 05 2015 05:54 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 05:53 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:45 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +In regards to the bolded, counter-guardians have most definitely been explained and mentioned. From episode 1 of the second cour: Rin: "When was it that i finally figured out what that dream really was? That it was a certain heroic spirit's mental landscape. Among many heroic spirits, the servants, there are special servants that are safeguards, called "protectors." They are summoned into the various ages, and prevent the human world's destruction. No, more accurately, they prevent the human race from destroying itself. Even though he was summoned to save humanity, before he could save them, he was first forced to clean up the messes that humans had made. It didn't take many summonings for him to determine that it was futile and start despising the human world. In the end, he continued to be betrayed by his ideal, even after death." This is with CRs subs, they decided to translate the guardians as protectors but it's the same thing really. And as you can see, this is why archer wants to kill shirou, to maybe, just maybe free himself from this loop of misery. Also, how can you not know about shirou's 'parental line'? It's been a huge part of the story that he was orphaned and then adopted, that entire event is what makes shirou the character that he is. And the pendant IS rin's pendant, a memento from her father, however, after saving shirou's life the pendant ends up in shirou's hands and when archer gives back rin a pendant it's not the current shirou got but the one shirou would end up carrying with him even many years from now. The reason why rin was surprised is because, there should only be one of this pendant but currently there are two. On May 05 2015 05:45 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +
Pretty sure they explained that he was in a mass disaster situation and was rescued and then adopted by his father. The pendant was how they were trying to tip off the audience because where there should only be 1 is now 2. Rin even bold faced told Shirou and the audience that there is "magically" 2 pendants when there should only be one like 1-2 episodes ago. She brought the pendant and used to to save shirou's life when he got stabbed with by lancer, she then clearly left it next to Shirou. Cue next scene of Archer giving her the pendant and Shirou waking up to find a pendant at the same time. He does know Saber from the past, from when he participated in the grail war as a young Shirou (Some say he is the product of the Fate route). The counter-guardian stuff is irrelevant at this point.
+ Show Spoiler +Archer isn't the product of the fate route, from a Q&A with someone asking about if the HF route is where shirou becomes archer: A: I’ll just say now that he doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit in any of the routes, but the possibility is still present in all of them as well. Basically, the probability of it happening is almost zero. Well it happened in some scenario because Archer + Show Spoiler +clearly participated in the grail war back when he was a kid. + Show Spoiler +Archer can basically be the product of any one of the routes, but the chance of the shirou we're currently following becoming archer is almost zero.
You have to imagine that if the events of the UBW route played out 10k times then maybe one of those times shirou ends up as archer.
The answer i posted in my previous post is from Nasu, so it's basically 'word of god' in regards to fate i suppose
Honestly, when it comes to "word of god" in regards to the Nasuverse, you gotta take it with a grain of salt. You need to look no farther than the Power Level Tier List by Nasu to see some retarded shit.
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On May 05 2015 06:09 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 06:01 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 05:45 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +
Pretty sure they explained and showed that he was in a mass disaster situation and was rescued and then adopted by his father. The pendant was how they were trying to tip off the audience because where there should only be 1 is now 2. Rin even bold faced told Shirou and the audience that there is "magically" 2 pendants when there should only be one like 1-2 episodes ago. She brought the pendant and used to to save shirou's life when he got stabbed by lancer, she then clearly left it next to Shirou. Cue next scene of Archer giving her the pendant and Shirou waking up to find a pendant at the same time. He does know Saber from the past, from when he participated in the grail war as a young Shirou (Some say he is the product of the Fate route). The counter-guardian stuff is irrelevant at this point.
+ Show Spoiler +Sure they showed the part where he was an orphan and got adapted. But they never said anything "useful" about his parents?
For the pendant: Alright, I didn't connect that at all, lol. Did Archer play Rin when he gave her the pendant? On May 05 2015 05:45 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +In regards to the bolded, counter-guardians have most definitely been explained and mentioned. From episode 1 of the second cour: Rin: "When was it that i finally figured out what that dream really was? That it was a certain heroic spirit's mental landscape. Among many heroic spirits, the servants, there are special servants that are safeguards, called "protectors." They are summoned into the various ages, and prevent the human world's destruction. No, more accurately, they prevent the human race from destroying itself. Even though he was summoned to save humanity, before he could save them, he was first forced to clean up the messes that humans had made. It didn't take many summonings for him to determine that it was futile and start despising the human world. In the end, he continued to be betrayed by his ideal, even after death." This is with CRs subs, they decided to translate the guardians as protectors but it's the same thing really. And as you can see, this is why archer wants to kill shirou, to maybe, just maybe free himself from this loop of misery. Also, how can you not know about shirou's 'parental line'? It's been a huge part of the story that he was orphaned and then adopted, that entire event is what makes shirou the character that he is. And the pendant IS rin's pendant, a memento from her father, however, after saving shirou's life the pendant ends up in shirou's hands and when archer gives back rin a pendant it's not the current shirou got but the one shirou would end up carrying with him even many years from now. The reason why rin was surprised is because, there should only be one of this pendant but currently there are two. + Show Spoiler +Well, the above quote doesn't connect Archer to Shirou in any way. The mess could be anything. And even if Shirou is the mess he has to clean up that doesn't hint at them being the same person. + Show Spoiler +That quote isn't about connecting archer to shirou, i even said that it was in regards to the bolded about you saying that they didn't mention or explain counter-guardians at all when it's one of the first things the anime does in cour 2.
Him being a counter guardian also isn't why he's summoned to the grail war either, those two things are completely unrelated.
Basically, at some point in his life, a Shirou of another time-line becomes a counter guardian and this turns out to be a turboshitty decision because instead of saving people what actually happens is that he's summoned to kill humans before humans destroy themselves, this turns him into the cynical archer we now know that despises his old ideals.
This archer is now summoned by Rin because of the pendant being used as the catalyst, remember that you need something connected to the servant you're trying to summon, in this case the pendant served as the catalyst for Rin to summon Archer.
Now archer believes that if he kills shirou then maybe, just maybe he can be freed from being a counter-guardian.
That's why he's trying so hard to kill shirou.
I'm sorry but the series really does make it fairly obvious what Archer's identity is if you're able to pick up on the shitton of clues and hints they're throwing at the viewer.
Although honestly, the biggest thing connecting the two is their magic.
+ Show Spoiler +Alright, then I'm either stupid or didn't care enough or both.
|
On May 05 2015 06:37 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 06:09 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 06:01 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 05:45 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +
Pretty sure they explained and showed that he was in a mass disaster situation and was rescued and then adopted by his father. The pendant was how they were trying to tip off the audience because where there should only be 1 is now 2. Rin even bold faced told Shirou and the audience that there is "magically" 2 pendants when there should only be one like 1-2 episodes ago. She brought the pendant and used to to save shirou's life when he got stabbed by lancer, she then clearly left it next to Shirou. Cue next scene of Archer giving her the pendant and Shirou waking up to find a pendant at the same time. He does know Saber from the past, from when he participated in the grail war as a young Shirou (Some say he is the product of the Fate route). The counter-guardian stuff is irrelevant at this point.
+ Show Spoiler +Sure they showed the part where he was an orphan and got adapted. But they never said anything "useful" about his parents?
For the pendant: Alright, I didn't connect that at all, lol. Did Archer play Rin when he gave her the pendant? On May 05 2015 05:45 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +In regards to the bolded, counter-guardians have most definitely been explained and mentioned. From episode 1 of the second cour: Rin: "When was it that i finally figured out what that dream really was? That it was a certain heroic spirit's mental landscape. Among many heroic spirits, the servants, there are special servants that are safeguards, called "protectors." They are summoned into the various ages, and prevent the human world's destruction. No, more accurately, they prevent the human race from destroying itself. Even though he was summoned to save humanity, before he could save them, he was first forced to clean up the messes that humans had made. It didn't take many summonings for him to determine that it was futile and start despising the human world. In the end, he continued to be betrayed by his ideal, even after death." This is with CRs subs, they decided to translate the guardians as protectors but it's the same thing really. And as you can see, this is why archer wants to kill shirou, to maybe, just maybe free himself from this loop of misery. Also, how can you not know about shirou's 'parental line'? It's been a huge part of the story that he was orphaned and then adopted, that entire event is what makes shirou the character that he is. And the pendant IS rin's pendant, a memento from her father, however, after saving shirou's life the pendant ends up in shirou's hands and when archer gives back rin a pendant it's not the current shirou got but the one shirou would end up carrying with him even many years from now. The reason why rin was surprised is because, there should only be one of this pendant but currently there are two. + Show Spoiler +Well, the above quote doesn't connect Archer to Shirou in any way. The mess could be anything. And even if Shirou is the mess he has to clean up that doesn't hint at them being the same person. + Show Spoiler +That quote isn't about connecting archer to shirou, i even said that it was in regards to the bolded about you saying that they didn't mention or explain counter-guardians at all when it's one of the first things the anime does in cour 2.
Him being a counter guardian also isn't why he's summoned to the grail war either, those two things are completely unrelated.
Basically, at some point in his life, a Shirou of another time-line becomes a counter guardian and this turns out to be a turboshitty decision because instead of saving people what actually happens is that he's summoned to kill humans before humans destroy themselves, this turns him into the cynical archer we now know that despises his old ideals.
This archer is now summoned by Rin because of the pendant being used as the catalyst, remember that you need something connected to the servant you're trying to summon, in this case the pendant served as the catalyst for Rin to summon Archer.
Now archer believes that if he kills shirou then maybe, just maybe he can be freed from being a counter-guardian.
That's why he's trying so hard to kill shirou.
I'm sorry but the series really does make it fairly obvious what Archer's identity is if you're able to pick up on the shitton of clues and hints they're throwing at the viewer.
Although honestly, the biggest thing connecting the two is their magic. + Show Spoiler +Alright, then I'm either stupid or didn't care enough or both.
+ Show Spoiler +Don't worry, I'm pretty much exactly like you. I didn't get the exact connection between Shirou and Archer either, I couldn't say if they're related or the same. They look too different, really. Plus like you say, the first time I even cared about Archers identity was when people where speaking about him here. I don't particularly like him.
|
Its kind of an important plot element, though. So much so that many people would sooner consider UBW to be "Archer Route" rather than "Rin Route" lol
|
On May 05 2015 06:23 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 05:54 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:53 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:45 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +In regards to the bolded, counter-guardians have most definitely been explained and mentioned. From episode 1 of the second cour: Rin: "When was it that i finally figured out what that dream really was? That it was a certain heroic spirit's mental landscape. Among many heroic spirits, the servants, there are special servants that are safeguards, called "protectors." They are summoned into the various ages, and prevent the human world's destruction. No, more accurately, they prevent the human race from destroying itself. Even though he was summoned to save humanity, before he could save them, he was first forced to clean up the messes that humans had made. It didn't take many summonings for him to determine that it was futile and start despising the human world. In the end, he continued to be betrayed by his ideal, even after death." This is with CRs subs, they decided to translate the guardians as protectors but it's the same thing really. And as you can see, this is why archer wants to kill shirou, to maybe, just maybe free himself from this loop of misery. Also, how can you not know about shirou's 'parental line'? It's been a huge part of the story that he was orphaned and then adopted, that entire event is what makes shirou the character that he is. And the pendant IS rin's pendant, a memento from her father, however, after saving shirou's life the pendant ends up in shirou's hands and when archer gives back rin a pendant it's not the current shirou got but the one shirou would end up carrying with him even many years from now. The reason why rin was surprised is because, there should only be one of this pendant but currently there are two. On May 05 2015 05:45 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +
Pretty sure they explained that he was in a mass disaster situation and was rescued and then adopted by his father. The pendant was how they were trying to tip off the audience because where there should only be 1 is now 2. Rin even bold faced told Shirou and the audience that there is "magically" 2 pendants when there should only be one like 1-2 episodes ago. She brought the pendant and used to to save shirou's life when he got stabbed with by lancer, she then clearly left it next to Shirou. Cue next scene of Archer giving her the pendant and Shirou waking up to find a pendant at the same time. He does know Saber from the past, from when he participated in the grail war as a young Shirou (Some say he is the product of the Fate route). The counter-guardian stuff is irrelevant at this point.
+ Show Spoiler +Archer isn't the product of the fate route, from a Q&A with someone asking about if the HF route is where shirou becomes archer: A: I’ll just say now that he doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit in any of the routes, but the possibility is still present in all of them as well. Basically, the probability of it happening is almost zero. Well it happened in some scenario because Archer + Show Spoiler +clearly participated in the grail war back when he was a kid. + Show Spoiler +Archer can basically be the product of any one of the routes, but the chance of the shirou we're currently following becoming archer is almost zero.
You have to imagine that if the events of the UBW route played out 10k times then maybe one of those times shirou ends up as archer.
The answer i posted in my previous post is from Nasu, so it's basically 'word of god' in regards to fate i suppose Honestly, when it comes to "word of god" in regards to the Nasuverse, you gotta take it with a grain of salt. You need to look no farther than the Power Level Tier List by Nasu to see some retarded shit.
what is nasu's power level tier list?
Do we have the angel types(like type mercury or type moon) at the top or some other reality writing entities with links to the akashic record like void shiki?
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On May 05 2015 07:30 IceHism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 06:23 Sentenal wrote:On May 05 2015 05:54 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:53 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:45 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +In regards to the bolded, counter-guardians have most definitely been explained and mentioned. From episode 1 of the second cour: Rin: "When was it that i finally figured out what that dream really was? That it was a certain heroic spirit's mental landscape. Among many heroic spirits, the servants, there are special servants that are safeguards, called "protectors." They are summoned into the various ages, and prevent the human world's destruction. No, more accurately, they prevent the human race from destroying itself. Even though he was summoned to save humanity, before he could save them, he was first forced to clean up the messes that humans had made. It didn't take many summonings for him to determine that it was futile and start despising the human world. In the end, he continued to be betrayed by his ideal, even after death." This is with CRs subs, they decided to translate the guardians as protectors but it's the same thing really. And as you can see, this is why archer wants to kill shirou, to maybe, just maybe free himself from this loop of misery. Also, how can you not know about shirou's 'parental line'? It's been a huge part of the story that he was orphaned and then adopted, that entire event is what makes shirou the character that he is. And the pendant IS rin's pendant, a memento from her father, however, after saving shirou's life the pendant ends up in shirou's hands and when archer gives back rin a pendant it's not the current shirou got but the one shirou would end up carrying with him even many years from now. The reason why rin was surprised is because, there should only be one of this pendant but currently there are two. On May 05 2015 05:45 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:[quote] Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +
Pretty sure they explained that he was in a mass disaster situation and was rescued and then adopted by his father. The pendant was how they were trying to tip off the audience because where there should only be 1 is now 2. Rin even bold faced told Shirou and the audience that there is "magically" 2 pendants when there should only be one like 1-2 episodes ago. She brought the pendant and used to to save shirou's life when he got stabbed with by lancer, she then clearly left it next to Shirou. Cue next scene of Archer giving her the pendant and Shirou waking up to find a pendant at the same time. He does know Saber from the past, from when he participated in the grail war as a young Shirou (Some say he is the product of the Fate route). The counter-guardian stuff is irrelevant at this point.
+ Show Spoiler +Archer isn't the product of the fate route, from a Q&A with someone asking about if the HF route is where shirou becomes archer: A: I’ll just say now that he doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit in any of the routes, but the possibility is still present in all of them as well. Basically, the probability of it happening is almost zero. Well it happened in some scenario because Archer + Show Spoiler +clearly participated in the grail war back when he was a kid. + Show Spoiler +Archer can basically be the product of any one of the routes, but the chance of the shirou we're currently following becoming archer is almost zero.
You have to imagine that if the events of the UBW route played out 10k times then maybe one of those times shirou ends up as archer.
The answer i posted in my previous post is from Nasu, so it's basically 'word of god' in regards to fate i suppose Honestly, when it comes to "word of god" in regards to the Nasuverse, you gotta take it with a grain of salt. You need to look no farther than the Power Level Tier List by Nasu to see some retarded shit. what is nasu's power level tier list? Do we have the angel types(like type mercury or type moon) at the top or some other reality writing entities with links to the akashic record like void shiki?
It took me a while to find, since this list is fairly old (/jp/ used to rage about it and call it shit back in like 2009 and earlier), and I'm unable to find the original source, but:
+ Show Spoiler +ORT > Crimson Moon > Primate Murder > Zelretch > Gilgamesh > Arcueid ≥ Black Sakura > Berserker = Black Saber ≥ Saber > Lancer > Rider = Archer > Caster ≥ Aoko = Nrvnqsr = Kouma = Barthomeloi ≥ Kojirou > Ciel ≥ Great Teacher Hassan (GTH) ≥ "Ryougi Shiki" > V Sion = AC Satsuki = R.Shiki = Bazett ≥ Akiha = Fujino = Araya ≥ Touko = Alba ≥ 18th Roa > > SHIKI = Kiri = Reinforced Kuzuki ≥ Sion = UBW Shirou > ha Avenger > Nanaya = Rin = Kotomine = Zouken = Leysritt > Satsuki ≥ Rio = Avalon Shirou > ha Sakura > Salaryman Dead = Ilya = Corpse ≥ Azaka ≥ Misayo > Kirie = Zombie ≥ Dragon Tooth Warrior ≥ Fuji-nee > Shinji > Fake Shiki
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On May 05 2015 07:30 IceHism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 06:23 Sentenal wrote:On May 05 2015 05:54 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:53 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:45 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 00:52 Miragee wrote:+ Show Spoiler [UBW ep5] +A lot happened here. I didn't expect Caster and her master to die in this episode. Next episode they will probably free Saber and either Shirou or Rin will be her master. I still don't know what the exact relationship between Shirou and Archer is. All the people here are talking about it as if it was super obvious what it is but I don't think it is. It's just that they dropped a ton of obvious hints that they are related in some way. But whether they were related by blood or something else related to the last Grail War has not been made clear in any way. Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +In regards to the bolded, counter-guardians have most definitely been explained and mentioned. From episode 1 of the second cour: Rin: "When was it that i finally figured out what that dream really was? That it was a certain heroic spirit's mental landscape. Among many heroic spirits, the servants, there are special servants that are safeguards, called "protectors." They are summoned into the various ages, and prevent the human world's destruction. No, more accurately, they prevent the human race from destroying itself. Even though he was summoned to save humanity, before he could save them, he was first forced to clean up the messes that humans had made. It didn't take many summonings for him to determine that it was futile and start despising the human world. In the end, he continued to be betrayed by his ideal, even after death." This is with CRs subs, they decided to translate the guardians as protectors but it's the same thing really. And as you can see, this is why archer wants to kill shirou, to maybe, just maybe free himself from this loop of misery. Also, how can you not know about shirou's 'parental line'? It's been a huge part of the story that he was orphaned and then adopted, that entire event is what makes shirou the character that he is. And the pendant IS rin's pendant, a memento from her father, however, after saving shirou's life the pendant ends up in shirou's hands and when archer gives back rin a pendant it's not the current shirou got but the one shirou would end up carrying with him even many years from now. The reason why rin was surprised is because, there should only be one of this pendant but currently there are two. On May 05 2015 05:45 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:[quote] Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +
Pretty sure they explained that he was in a mass disaster situation and was rescued and then adopted by his father. The pendant was how they were trying to tip off the audience because where there should only be 1 is now 2. Rin even bold faced told Shirou and the audience that there is "magically" 2 pendants when there should only be one like 1-2 episodes ago. She brought the pendant and used to to save shirou's life when he got stabbed with by lancer, she then clearly left it next to Shirou. Cue next scene of Archer giving her the pendant and Shirou waking up to find a pendant at the same time. He does know Saber from the past, from when he participated in the grail war as a young Shirou (Some say he is the product of the Fate route). The counter-guardian stuff is irrelevant at this point.
+ Show Spoiler +Archer isn't the product of the fate route, from a Q&A with someone asking about if the HF route is where shirou becomes archer: A: I’ll just say now that he doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit in any of the routes, but the possibility is still present in all of them as well. Basically, the probability of it happening is almost zero. Well it happened in some scenario because Archer + Show Spoiler +clearly participated in the grail war back when he was a kid. + Show Spoiler +Archer can basically be the product of any one of the routes, but the chance of the shirou we're currently following becoming archer is almost zero.
You have to imagine that if the events of the UBW route played out 10k times then maybe one of those times shirou ends up as archer.
The answer i posted in my previous post is from Nasu, so it's basically 'word of god' in regards to fate i suppose Honestly, when it comes to "word of god" in regards to the Nasuverse, you gotta take it with a grain of salt. You need to look no farther than the Power Level Tier List by Nasu to see some retarded shit. what is nasu's power level tier list? Do we have the angel types(like type mercury or type moon) at the top or some other reality writing entities with links to the akashic record like void shiki?
maybe this? not sure how complete it is
http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/archive/index.php/t-278.html
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On May 05 2015 07:40 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 07:30 IceHism wrote:On May 05 2015 06:23 Sentenal wrote:On May 05 2015 05:54 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:53 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:45 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:07 Unleashing wrote:[quote] Except it really IS super obvious, lol. Spoiler regarding this: + Show Spoiler +Archer IS shirou
The show couldn't make it any more obvious outside of outright saying it
Suddenly there's two of a pendant that should only exist one of, which shirou ended up being in possession of as a result of Rin saving him, yet archer had a duplicate to give to Rin
Archer is well, an archer and shirou used to do archery and was good at it
Shirou has the exact same magic as archer and archer even knew how to help shirou with the pains
Shirou's prefered weapons of choice are also Archer's prefered weapons of choice
Shirou prefered archer's style of fighting and felt that it fit him better than the style saber was teaching him
Rin talks about "i knew it, you two are too similar" a few times because she has figured it out, especially after the pendant reveal
From the flashbacks regarding archer we know that he used to hold the same ideal that shirou currently holds and that he hates the ideals shirou currently holds (He told shirou to drown in his own ideals and constantly tries to kill him)
We also know that as a result of his ideals he ended up becoming a guardian which is an existance he hates
We also know archer knew saber at some point, of course he did, because he summoned her in the current grail war
And hell in the latest episode we hear archer mutter the exact same thing shirou does to activate his magic "Trace on"
I'm sure i forgot some of the many other hints they give you, but they really make it glaringly obvious especially so after Rin herself figured it out
They're honestly also fairly similar in regards to how they look if we ignore the skin-colour and hair-colour
+ Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +In regards to the bolded, counter-guardians have most definitely been explained and mentioned. From episode 1 of the second cour: Rin: "When was it that i finally figured out what that dream really was? That it was a certain heroic spirit's mental landscape. Among many heroic spirits, the servants, there are special servants that are safeguards, called "protectors." They are summoned into the various ages, and prevent the human world's destruction. No, more accurately, they prevent the human race from destroying itself. Even though he was summoned to save humanity, before he could save them, he was first forced to clean up the messes that humans had made. It didn't take many summonings for him to determine that it was futile and start despising the human world. In the end, he continued to be betrayed by his ideal, even after death." This is with CRs subs, they decided to translate the guardians as protectors but it's the same thing really. And as you can see, this is why archer wants to kill shirou, to maybe, just maybe free himself from this loop of misery. Also, how can you not know about shirou's 'parental line'? It's been a huge part of the story that he was orphaned and then adopted, that entire event is what makes shirou the character that he is. And the pendant IS rin's pendant, a memento from her father, however, after saving shirou's life the pendant ends up in shirou's hands and when archer gives back rin a pendant it's not the current shirou got but the one shirou would end up carrying with him even many years from now. The reason why rin was surprised is because, there should only be one of this pendant but currently there are two. On May 05 2015 05:45 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +
Pretty sure they explained that he was in a mass disaster situation and was rescued and then adopted by his father. The pendant was how they were trying to tip off the audience because where there should only be 1 is now 2. Rin even bold faced told Shirou and the audience that there is "magically" 2 pendants when there should only be one like 1-2 episodes ago. She brought the pendant and used to to save shirou's life when he got stabbed with by lancer, she then clearly left it next to Shirou. Cue next scene of Archer giving her the pendant and Shirou waking up to find a pendant at the same time. He does know Saber from the past, from when he participated in the grail war as a young Shirou (Some say he is the product of the Fate route). The counter-guardian stuff is irrelevant at this point.
+ Show Spoiler +Archer isn't the product of the fate route, from a Q&A with someone asking about if the HF route is where shirou becomes archer: A: I’ll just say now that he doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit in any of the routes, but the possibility is still present in all of them as well. Basically, the probability of it happening is almost zero. Well it happened in some scenario because Archer + Show Spoiler +clearly participated in the grail war back when he was a kid. + Show Spoiler +Archer can basically be the product of any one of the routes, but the chance of the shirou we're currently following becoming archer is almost zero.
You have to imagine that if the events of the UBW route played out 10k times then maybe one of those times shirou ends up as archer.
The answer i posted in my previous post is from Nasu, so it's basically 'word of god' in regards to fate i suppose Honestly, when it comes to "word of god" in regards to the Nasuverse, you gotta take it with a grain of salt. You need to look no farther than the Power Level Tier List by Nasu to see some retarded shit. what is nasu's power level tier list? Do we have the angel types(like type mercury or type moon) at the top or some other reality writing entities with links to the akashic record like void shiki? It took me a while to find, since this list is fairly old (/jp/ used to rage about it and call it shit back in like 2009 and earlier), and I'm unable to find the original source, but: + Show Spoiler +ORT > Crimson Moon > Primate Murder > Zelretch > Gilgamesh > Arcueid ≥ Black Sakura > Berserker = Black Saber ≥ Saber > Lancer > Rider = Archer > Caster ≥ Aoko = Nrvnqsr = Kouma = Barthomeloi ≥ Kojirou > Ciel ≥ Great Teacher Hassan (GTH) ≥ "Ryougi Shiki" > V Sion = AC Satsuki = R.Shiki = Bazett ≥ Akiha = Fujino = Araya ≥ Touko = Alba ≥ 18th Roa > > SHIKI = Kiri = Reinforced Kuzuki ≥ Sion = UBW Shirou > ha Avenger > Nanaya = Rin = Kotomine = Zouken = Leysritt > Satsuki ≥ Rio = Avalon Shirou > ha Sakura > Salaryman Dead = Ilya = Corpse ≥ Azaka ≥ Misayo > Kirie = Zombie ≥ Dragon Tooth Warrior ≥ Fuji-nee > Shinji > Fake Shiki
What a lulzy list, Seems like he banged it out in like 10 min and didn't really think of what actually happened in the various stories lol.
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On May 05 2015 08:48 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 07:40 Sentenal wrote:On May 05 2015 07:30 IceHism wrote:On May 05 2015 06:23 Sentenal wrote:On May 05 2015 05:54 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:53 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:45 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 01:12 Miragee wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +So where is the note that deletes the option of them being bloodrelated instead of being the same person? + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +In regards to the bolded, counter-guardians have most definitely been explained and mentioned. From episode 1 of the second cour: Rin: "When was it that i finally figured out what that dream really was? That it was a certain heroic spirit's mental landscape. Among many heroic spirits, the servants, there are special servants that are safeguards, called "protectors." They are summoned into the various ages, and prevent the human world's destruction. No, more accurately, they prevent the human race from destroying itself. Even though he was summoned to save humanity, before he could save them, he was first forced to clean up the messes that humans had made. It didn't take many summonings for him to determine that it was futile and start despising the human world. In the end, he continued to be betrayed by his ideal, even after death." This is with CRs subs, they decided to translate the guardians as protectors but it's the same thing really. And as you can see, this is why archer wants to kill shirou, to maybe, just maybe free himself from this loop of misery. Also, how can you not know about shirou's 'parental line'? It's been a huge part of the story that he was orphaned and then adopted, that entire event is what makes shirou the character that he is. And the pendant IS rin's pendant, a memento from her father, however, after saving shirou's life the pendant ends up in shirou's hands and when archer gives back rin a pendant it's not the current shirou got but the one shirou would end up carrying with him even many years from now. The reason why rin was surprised is because, there should only be one of this pendant but currently there are two. On May 05 2015 05:45 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +
Pretty sure they explained that he was in a mass disaster situation and was rescued and then adopted by his father. The pendant was how they were trying to tip off the audience because where there should only be 1 is now 2. Rin even bold faced told Shirou and the audience that there is "magically" 2 pendants when there should only be one like 1-2 episodes ago. She brought the pendant and used to to save shirou's life when he got stabbed with by lancer, she then clearly left it next to Shirou. Cue next scene of Archer giving her the pendant and Shirou waking up to find a pendant at the same time. He does know Saber from the past, from when he participated in the grail war as a young Shirou (Some say he is the product of the Fate route). The counter-guardian stuff is irrelevant at this point.
+ Show Spoiler +Archer isn't the product of the fate route, from a Q&A with someone asking about if the HF route is where shirou becomes archer: A: I’ll just say now that he doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit in any of the routes, but the possibility is still present in all of them as well. Basically, the probability of it happening is almost zero. Well it happened in some scenario because Archer + Show Spoiler +clearly participated in the grail war back when he was a kid. + Show Spoiler +Archer can basically be the product of any one of the routes, but the chance of the shirou we're currently following becoming archer is almost zero.
You have to imagine that if the events of the UBW route played out 10k times then maybe one of those times shirou ends up as archer.
The answer i posted in my previous post is from Nasu, so it's basically 'word of god' in regards to fate i suppose Honestly, when it comes to "word of god" in regards to the Nasuverse, you gotta take it with a grain of salt. You need to look no farther than the Power Level Tier List by Nasu to see some retarded shit. what is nasu's power level tier list? Do we have the angel types(like type mercury or type moon) at the top or some other reality writing entities with links to the akashic record like void shiki? It took me a while to find, since this list is fairly old (/jp/ used to rage about it and call it shit back in like 2009 and earlier), and I'm unable to find the original source, but: + Show Spoiler +ORT > Crimson Moon > Primate Murder > Zelretch > Gilgamesh > Arcueid ≥ Black Sakura > Berserker = Black Saber ≥ Saber > Lancer > Rider = Archer > Caster ≥ Aoko = Nrvnqsr = Kouma = Barthomeloi ≥ Kojirou > Ciel ≥ Great Teacher Hassan (GTH) ≥ "Ryougi Shiki" > V Sion = AC Satsuki = R.Shiki = Bazett ≥ Akiha = Fujino = Araya ≥ Touko = Alba ≥ 18th Roa > > SHIKI = Kiri = Reinforced Kuzuki ≥ Sion = UBW Shirou > ha Avenger > Nanaya = Rin = Kotomine = Zouken = Leysritt > Satsuki ≥ Rio = Avalon Shirou > ha Sakura > Salaryman Dead = Ilya = Corpse ≥ Azaka ≥ Misayo > Kirie = Zombie ≥ Dragon Tooth Warrior ≥ Fuji-nee > Shinji > Fake Shiki What a lulzy list, Seems like he banged it out in like 10 min and didn't really think of what actually happened in the various stories lol.
what do you find disagreeable about it?
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Nrvnqsr is Hebrew or something, right? I always get confused how that mess of letters comes out to "Nero". I usually assume it's Welsh.
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What's wrong with Seraph? The animation quality of ep5 was almost as bad as in Ninja Slayer...
On May 05 2015 07:00 Sentenal wrote:
Its kind of an important plot element, though. So much so that many people would sooner consider UBW to be "Archer Route" rather than "Rin Route" lol
To be honest, I don't really care about the whole "Route" idea. The concept of taking the base story and changing the perspective/focus on one other main character and some key points (?) doesn't seem interesting to me. For me it's just a story that is told and in UBW the main characters are probably Rin, Shirou and Archer. From everything I saw so far, I don't know why it should be called the Rin Route nor why it should be called Archer Route. They are just two out of three main characters.
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On May 05 2015 15:13 Miragee wrote:What's wrong with Seraph? The animation quality of ep5 was almost as bad as in Ninja Slayer... Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 07:00 Sentenal wrote:
Its kind of an important plot element, though. So much so that many people would sooner consider UBW to be "Archer Route" rather than "Rin Route" lol To be honest, I don't really care about the whole "Route" idea. The concept of taking the base story and changing the perspective/focus on one other main character and some key points (?) doesn't seem interesting to me. For me it's just a story that is told and in UBW the main characters are probably Rin, Shirou and Archer. From everything I saw so far, I don't know why it should be called the Rin Route nor why it should be called Archer Route. They are just two out of three main characters.
Its because there are multiple routes in the VN. Same characters but in the other routes (or version of the story) other characters are emphasized and others deemphasized. Different themes are presented and Shirou faces different challenges to his ideals. Like in the Fate route its all about Shirou and Saber, in Heaven's Feel route its about Shirou and Sakura. Shirou being the center of the story never changes since he is the protag but what other characters do changes as does their importance. Rider for example doesn't get rofl off screen killed in every route and plays a much larger roll in Heaven's Feel so you actually learn and see more about her character. Every route reveals more about what is going on.
On May 05 2015 09:11 IceHism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 08:48 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 07:40 Sentenal wrote:On May 05 2015 07:30 IceHism wrote:On May 05 2015 06:23 Sentenal wrote:On May 05 2015 05:54 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:53 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:45 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:On May 05 2015 01:17 Unleashing wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +Shirou wasn't born into a mage household, he was adopted after being saved, so obviously it couldn't be anyone from his previous family.
We also know that Rin has figured out who Archer is, so it has to be someone she knows of, this means it can't be anyone from the future. And this also eliminates it being someone from shirou's past as we know him and Rin don't really know eachother well previous to the events of FSN.
There are other smaller things too like Archer knowing saber, how would someone blood related to him know saber? There's clearly nobody currently involved in the war that is blood related to shirou.
And, again the pendant, the pendant that shirou carries around because he was saved by Rin, the pendant that there should only be one of. For him to be someone blood related to shirou he'd have to be someone from the future, but again, we know it's someone that Rin currently knows of.
Edit: Also why would archer be so dedicated about killing shirou if it wasn't to attempt to free himself from being a counter-guardian which we know is an existance he hates being in. I mean everything archer does is about dedicating himself to kill shirou at this point. + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +In regards to the bolded, counter-guardians have most definitely been explained and mentioned. From episode 1 of the second cour: Rin: "When was it that i finally figured out what that dream really was? That it was a certain heroic spirit's mental landscape. Among many heroic spirits, the servants, there are special servants that are safeguards, called "protectors." They are summoned into the various ages, and prevent the human world's destruction. No, more accurately, they prevent the human race from destroying itself. Even though he was summoned to save humanity, before he could save them, he was first forced to clean up the messes that humans had made. It didn't take many summonings for him to determine that it was futile and start despising the human world. In the end, he continued to be betrayed by his ideal, even after death." This is with CRs subs, they decided to translate the guardians as protectors but it's the same thing really. And as you can see, this is why archer wants to kill shirou, to maybe, just maybe free himself from this loop of misery. Also, how can you not know about shirou's 'parental line'? It's been a huge part of the story that he was orphaned and then adopted, that entire event is what makes shirou the character that he is. And the pendant IS rin's pendant, a memento from her father, however, after saving shirou's life the pendant ends up in shirou's hands and when archer gives back rin a pendant it's not the current shirou got but the one shirou would end up carrying with him even many years from now. The reason why rin was surprised is because, there should only be one of this pendant but currently there are two. On May 05 2015 05:45 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +
Pretty sure they explained that he was in a mass disaster situation and was rescued and then adopted by his father. The pendant was how they were trying to tip off the audience because where there should only be 1 is now 2. Rin even bold faced told Shirou and the audience that there is "magically" 2 pendants when there should only be one like 1-2 episodes ago. She brought the pendant and used to to save shirou's life when he got stabbed with by lancer, she then clearly left it next to Shirou. Cue next scene of Archer giving her the pendant and Shirou waking up to find a pendant at the same time. He does know Saber from the past, from when he participated in the grail war as a young Shirou (Some say he is the product of the Fate route). The counter-guardian stuff is irrelevant at this point.
+ Show Spoiler +Archer isn't the product of the fate route, from a Q&A with someone asking about if the HF route is where shirou becomes archer: A: I’ll just say now that he doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit in any of the routes, but the possibility is still present in all of them as well. Basically, the probability of it happening is almost zero. Well it happened in some scenario because Archer + Show Spoiler +clearly participated in the grail war back when he was a kid. + Show Spoiler +Archer can basically be the product of any one of the routes, but the chance of the shirou we're currently following becoming archer is almost zero.
You have to imagine that if the events of the UBW route played out 10k times then maybe one of those times shirou ends up as archer.
The answer i posted in my previous post is from Nasu, so it's basically 'word of god' in regards to fate i suppose Honestly, when it comes to "word of god" in regards to the Nasuverse, you gotta take it with a grain of salt. You need to look no farther than the Power Level Tier List by Nasu to see some retarded shit. what is nasu's power level tier list? Do we have the angel types(like type mercury or type moon) at the top or some other reality writing entities with links to the akashic record like void shiki? It took me a while to find, since this list is fairly old (/jp/ used to rage about it and call it shit back in like 2009 and earlier), and I'm unable to find the original source, but: + Show Spoiler +ORT > Crimson Moon > Primate Murder > Zelretch > Gilgamesh > Arcueid ≥ Black Sakura > Berserker = Black Saber ≥ Saber > Lancer > Rider = Archer > Caster ≥ Aoko = Nrvnqsr = Kouma = Barthomeloi ≥ Kojirou > Ciel ≥ Great Teacher Hassan (GTH) ≥ "Ryougi Shiki" > V Sion = AC Satsuki = R.Shiki = Bazett ≥ Akiha = Fujino = Araya ≥ Touko = Alba ≥ 18th Roa > > SHIKI = Kiri = Reinforced Kuzuki ≥ Sion = UBW Shirou > ha Avenger > Nanaya = Rin = Kotomine = Zouken = Leysritt > Satsuki ≥ Rio = Avalon Shirou > ha Sakura > Salaryman Dead = Ilya = Corpse ≥ Azaka ≥ Misayo > Kirie = Zombie ≥ Dragon Tooth Warrior ≥ Fuji-nee > Shinji > Fake Shiki What a lulzy list, Seems like he banged it out in like 10 min and didn't really think of what actually happened in the various stories lol. what do you find disagreeable about it?
Well I don't know any of the chars that are outside of the Fate universe. But lets see. + Show Spoiler +To start I would say Illya is way to low. Saber + Avalon should be higher. Black Sakura should be above Gil imo since iirc she effortlessly absorbed him in HF. Lancer being above Rider, Archer, and Caster seems a bit off too. Kirei is on there twice (? Unless Kirie is someone else) but either way hes too low to since irrc in F/HA it was said he was probably stronger then Bazett so he should be up there. I don't like that UBW Shirou gets placed a head of so many of the mages either but plot armor carried him to somehow beating Gil so I guess? Even though he still ranks below Kuzuki so that is weird. There is also some other small things that seem weird like Leysritt's placement
But to be fair, with how the routes played out (with characters being stronger or weaker depending on how the plot of a particular route demanded they be) you get some uneven and not entirely consistent power rankings.
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Arslan is good but holy shit is it slow... Nothing really happens in an episode. What little happens is cool enough, so I'll hold on for now.
I much prefer Kekkai Sensen and its brand of "shit happens/no plot", rather than this "nothing happens/good plot".
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On May 05 2015 15:23 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 09:11 IceHism wrote:On May 05 2015 08:48 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 07:40 Sentenal wrote:On May 05 2015 07:30 IceHism wrote:On May 05 2015 06:23 Sentenal wrote:On May 05 2015 05:54 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:53 Slaughter wrote:On May 05 2015 05:45 Unleashing wrote:On May 05 2015 05:32 Miragee wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +Alright, it seems like it lot dropped off of my head over time. It's the usual problem: I can't really connect details from episodes that I watched weeks ago.
I didn't remember that Shirou's parental line was made clear. I also thought the pendant was Rin's. When I watched the first season I found it to be really irritating when she so surprised about Shirou having a pendant. In the first episode it looked like she brought it and left it with him...
I didn't remember that Rin figured out who Archer is. o.O
The whole Saber-Archer thing: I took that as Archer knowing Saber from the past not from the present - like they met up before. The whole thing about his fuzzy memories - which he faked apparently - backed that up as well.
And I don't understand this whole counter-guardian stuff. It was never explained or mentioned at all. How should someone assume a random mechanic in a fictional world before it's ever mentioned? Especially in one whose boundaries are barely even explained at all. It's like everything is possible at this point in time so it could be anything... + Show Spoiler +In regards to the bolded, counter-guardians have most definitely been explained and mentioned. From episode 1 of the second cour: Rin: "When was it that i finally figured out what that dream really was? That it was a certain heroic spirit's mental landscape. Among many heroic spirits, the servants, there are special servants that are safeguards, called "protectors." They are summoned into the various ages, and prevent the human world's destruction. No, more accurately, they prevent the human race from destroying itself. Even though he was summoned to save humanity, before he could save them, he was first forced to clean up the messes that humans had made. It didn't take many summonings for him to determine that it was futile and start despising the human world. In the end, he continued to be betrayed by his ideal, even after death." This is with CRs subs, they decided to translate the guardians as protectors but it's the same thing really. And as you can see, this is why archer wants to kill shirou, to maybe, just maybe free himself from this loop of misery. Also, how can you not know about shirou's 'parental line'? It's been a huge part of the story that he was orphaned and then adopted, that entire event is what makes shirou the character that he is. And the pendant IS rin's pendant, a memento from her father, however, after saving shirou's life the pendant ends up in shirou's hands and when archer gives back rin a pendant it's not the current shirou got but the one shirou would end up carrying with him even many years from now. The reason why rin was surprised is because, there should only be one of this pendant but currently there are two. On May 05 2015 05:45 Slaughter wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +
Pretty sure they explained that he was in a mass disaster situation and was rescued and then adopted by his father. The pendant was how they were trying to tip off the audience because where there should only be 1 is now 2. Rin even bold faced told Shirou and the audience that there is "magically" 2 pendants when there should only be one like 1-2 episodes ago. She brought the pendant and used to to save shirou's life when he got stabbed with by lancer, she then clearly left it next to Shirou. Cue next scene of Archer giving her the pendant and Shirou waking up to find a pendant at the same time. He does know Saber from the past, from when he participated in the grail war as a young Shirou (Some say he is the product of the Fate route). The counter-guardian stuff is irrelevant at this point.
+ Show Spoiler +Archer isn't the product of the fate route, from a Q&A with someone asking about if the HF route is where shirou becomes archer: A: I’ll just say now that he doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit in any of the routes, but the possibility is still present in all of them as well. Basically, the probability of it happening is almost zero. Well it happened in some scenario because Archer + Show Spoiler +clearly participated in the grail war back when he was a kid. + Show Spoiler +Archer can basically be the product of any one of the routes, but the chance of the shirou we're currently following becoming archer is almost zero.
You have to imagine that if the events of the UBW route played out 10k times then maybe one of those times shirou ends up as archer.
The answer i posted in my previous post is from Nasu, so it's basically 'word of god' in regards to fate i suppose Honestly, when it comes to "word of god" in regards to the Nasuverse, you gotta take it with a grain of salt. You need to look no farther than the Power Level Tier List by Nasu to see some retarded shit. what is nasu's power level tier list? Do we have the angel types(like type mercury or type moon) at the top or some other reality writing entities with links to the akashic record like void shiki? It took me a while to find, since this list is fairly old (/jp/ used to rage about it and call it shit back in like 2009 and earlier), and I'm unable to find the original source, but: + Show Spoiler +ORT > Crimson Moon > Primate Murder > Zelretch > Gilgamesh > Arcueid ≥ Black Sakura > Berserker = Black Saber ≥ Saber > Lancer > Rider = Archer > Caster ≥ Aoko = Nrvnqsr = Kouma = Barthomeloi ≥ Kojirou > Ciel ≥ Great Teacher Hassan (GTH) ≥ "Ryougi Shiki" > V Sion = AC Satsuki = R.Shiki = Bazett ≥ Akiha = Fujino = Araya ≥ Touko = Alba ≥ 18th Roa > > SHIKI = Kiri = Reinforced Kuzuki ≥ Sion = UBW Shirou > ha Avenger > Nanaya = Rin = Kotomine = Zouken = Leysritt > Satsuki ≥ Rio = Avalon Shirou > ha Sakura > Salaryman Dead = Ilya = Corpse ≥ Azaka ≥ Misayo > Kirie = Zombie ≥ Dragon Tooth Warrior ≥ Fuji-nee > Shinji > Fake Shiki What a lulzy list, Seems like he banged it out in like 10 min and didn't really think of what actually happened in the various stories lol. what do you find disagreeable about it? Well I don't know any of the chars that are outside of the Fate universe. But lets see. + Show Spoiler +To start I would say Illya is way to low. Saber + Avalon should be higher. Black Sakura should be above Gil imo since iirc she effortlessly absorbed him in HF. Lancer being above Rider, Archer, and Caster seems a bit off too. Kirei is on there twice (? Unless Kirie is someone else) but either way hes too low to since irrc in F/HA it was said he was probably stronger then Bazett so he should be up there. I don't like that UBW Shirou gets placed a head of so many of the mages either but plot armor carried him to somehow beating Gil so I guess? Even though he still ranks below Kuzuki so that is weird. There is also some other small things that seem weird like Leysritt's placement But to be fair, with how the routes played out (with characters being stronger or weaker depending on how the plot of a particular route demanded they be) you get some uneven and not entirely consistent power rankings.
+ Show Spoiler +Ilya has latent power, but very little combat ability.
Lancer is brutally OP to anyone that can't survive losing their heart, which includes Rider, Archer and Caster. If he was actually allowed to fight properly, it's basically instant death the moment he's in range.
Bazett placement is kind of messy because she has Fragarach, which lets her fight people well above her.
Gilgamesh is supposed to be stronger than everyone except some of the actual gods of the universe. He's just so arrogant that he believes most opponents are beneath much of his arsenal, which is why he loses to characters that are much weaker than him. Really, if he was remotely pragmatic he'd just use Ea and kill everyone instantly.
Kiri is from KnK.
Kuzuki is a master assassin or something with a lifetime of training, but his ranking is still based around having the buffs from a Servant.
UBW Shirou beats most conventional humans and mages purely by virtue of spamming noble phantasms.
Avalon Saber really can't be ranked any higher. I mean, it's basically just Gods, demigods and immortals that are higher up.
I mean, power rankings are always lulzy, but it makes sense for the most part.
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