If you come in here looking for "anime recommendations" then please refer to this chart before posting: Anime Recommendations (as of may 2014). We also have an IRC channel called #tladt where we all hang out. The channel is on Rizon, not QuakeNet! Feel free to check it out. TLADT discord is Discord.gg
For currently airing anime, please see Anichart.net
On December 23 2011 05:50 Requizen wrote: Honestly, I kind of loathe the day where someone describes themselves as a "professional anime critic". Like you said, it's not really like books or movies where you have to take each one seriously. Taking things like, say, most Gainax shows seriously is a bad idea. But they're usually very enjoyable. Same for a lot of gag shows like Shin-chan. Not that I like Shin-chan, but some people do, and if you try to critique it alongside something like Cowboy Bebop, it's not even the same realm of imagining.
? I'm a professional anime critic.
On September 22 2011 00:40 Southlight wrote: Code Geass was amazing. It matched some of the most intellectually sound people, had battlefield tactics that were so intricate and thought-out that it reminded me of a cross between Legend of Galactic Heroes and Death Note. None of the characters were teenage emos, as they all were mature, driven people with their own convictions, like Shakugan no Shana. So much deep philosophy about manhood, mankind, and war, it was almost like an Evangelion version of Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. The story arc with Euphie was tragic, reminding me of Titus Andronicus, and was both touching and exciting, making me wish things had taken that turn much earlier. Alas, that's the only qualm I had with CG, which is that it delayed some of the best moments until too late into the season, forcing you to watch R2, which was a very Gundam-esque move. That was around when we should have realized that their lead writer was assassinated and replaced by Char Aznable.
On September 22 2011 01:48 Southlight wrote: What is Death Note, people ask, and why is it so heralded? Think Iago versus King Claudius, only King Claudius happens to be the Hyde to Hamlet's Jekyll. Imagine a match of chess being played by the most nefarious, scheming villains in literary history... against each other, amidst a contemporary sociopolitical backdrop. The pieces include the media, the power of information, the very philosophical ideals each of these monsters hold dear, and even you, the dear reader (or watcher), as you are sucked into this dizzying tale of cunning. Trod through the muddy, bloodied waters of the hundreds and thousands of corpses left behind in this intellectual duel, and look on in Ooba Tsugumi's game of bloodlust, justice, and vengeance.
On October 19 2011 03:45 Southlight wrote: What you didn't know... is that Ben-to is symbolic of the poverty-stricken countries. It takes place in a modern first-world setting to juxtapose "a world in which food is plentiful" with the grotesque side of man in which food is a life-or-death commodity, one in which people are more than willing to resort to violence to get. One in which connections, gender, and other such "civilized" social hierarchies don't matter. The main character is like a Peace Corps member who's been sent to China and wants to woo the love of his life with food, but because of his weak, mental and physical state from being pampered by a first-world society, cannot, and must train to become a real man before his courtship can continue.
Will he succeed? Will he become all that he can be?
No, that just makes you a intellectual anime watcher
Now I'm curious where is that picture where Ferrose and I were talking about anime and Southlight put us in that working picture...thing.
On December 23 2011 05:46 Requizen wrote: Speaking of which, I still haven't watched Gintama. But every description I read of it makes me think of generic shonen with wacky sci-fi universe.
Gintama is actually far more comedy oriented than shounen. I've only watched 50 or so episodes, but I find it one of the funnier comedies. That said, with so many episodes, it can get a little hit or miss. One part I liked:
On December 23 2011 05:18 jtp118 wrote: thanks for all of the recommendations everyone, that's quite helpful. i didn't realize that there wasn't a settled 'canon' of the very best anime ... maybe there should be some sort of huge meta-TL poll to see points of convergence on everyone's top 10/top 20 lists
The problem with that tons of people are just "casual viewers", as you put it. Even with anime. If you wanted to see the "Top Anime", you could look at the Top Anime list on MAL (myanimelist), but thats just going to give you what the most popular anime right now are, rather than what is the best. If you would rather us just list out some of our favorite shows that we think are really good, that would be a whole lot easier. And in my case, I'd say Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Gunbuster, and Gundam Unicorn.
On December 23 2011 05:50 Requizen wrote: Honestly, I kind of loathe the day where someone describes themselves as a "professional anime critic". Like you said, it's not really like books or movies where you have to take each one seriously. Taking things like, say, most Gainax shows seriously is a bad idea. But they're usually very enjoyable. Same for a lot of gag shows like Shin-chan. Not that I like Shin-chan, but some people do, and if you try to critique it alongside something like Cowboy Bebop, it's not even the same realm of imagining.
? I'm a professional anime critic.
On September 22 2011 00:40 Southlight wrote: Code Geass was amazing. It matched some of the most intellectually sound people, had battlefield tactics that were so intricate and thought-out that it reminded me of a cross between Legend of Galactic Heroes and Death Note. None of the characters were teenage emos, as they all were mature, driven people with their own convictions, like Shakugan no Shana. So much deep philosophy about manhood, mankind, and war, it was almost like an Evangelion version of Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. The story arc with Euphie was tragic, reminding me of Titus Andronicus, and was both touching and exciting, making me wish things had taken that turn much earlier. Alas, that's the only qualm I had with CG, which is that it delayed some of the best moments until too late into the season, forcing you to watch R2, which was a very Gundam-esque move. That was around when we should have realized that their lead writer was assassinated and replaced by Char Aznable.
On September 22 2011 01:48 Southlight wrote: What is Death Note, people ask, and why is it so heralded? Think Iago versus King Claudius, only King Claudius happens to be the Hyde to Hamlet's Jekyll. Imagine a match of chess being played by the most nefarious, scheming villains in literary history... against each other, amidst a contemporary sociopolitical backdrop. The pieces include the media, the power of information, the very philosophical ideals each of these monsters hold dear, and even you, the dear reader (or watcher), as you are sucked into this dizzying tale of cunning. Trod through the muddy, bloodied waters of the hundreds and thousands of corpses left behind in this intellectual duel, and look on in Ooba Tsugumi's game of bloodlust, justice, and vengeance.
On October 19 2011 03:45 Southlight wrote: What you didn't know... is that Ben-to is symbolic of the poverty-stricken countries. It takes place in a modern first-world setting to juxtapose "a world in which food is plentiful" with the grotesque side of man in which food is a life-or-death commodity, one in which people are more than willing to resort to violence to get. One in which connections, gender, and other such "civilized" social hierarchies don't matter. The main character is like a Peace Corps member who's been sent to China and wants to woo the love of his life with food, but because of his weak, mental and physical state from being pampered by a first-world society, cannot, and must train to become a real man before his courtship can continue.
On December 23 2011 05:18 jtp118 wrote: thanks for all of the recommendations everyone, that's quite helpful. i didn't realize that there wasn't a settled 'canon' of the very best anime ... maybe there should be some sort of huge meta-TL poll to see points of convergence on everyone's top 10/top 20 lists
The problem with that tons of people are just "casual viewers", as you put it. Even with anime. If you wanted to see the "Top Anime", you could look at the Top Anime list on MAL (myanimelist), but thats just going to give you what the most popular anime right now are, rather than what is the best. If you would rather us just list out some of our favorite shows that we think are really good, that would be a whole lot easier. And in my case, I'd say Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Gunbuster, and Gundam Unicorn.
Sometimes though, there are similarities between top anime lists in different websites. For popularity usually, Clannad, Death Note, and Code Geass are in the top 10 for most websites. For the top rated, you can usually find LoGH, Steins; Gate (well, for some of them), and Code Geass.
On December 23 2011 05:18 jtp118 wrote: thanks for all of the recommendations everyone, that's quite helpful. i didn't realize that there wasn't a settled 'canon' of the very best anime ... maybe there should be some sort of huge meta-TL poll to see points of convergence on everyone's top 10/top 20 lists
The problem with that tons of people are just "casual viewers", as you put it. Even with anime. If you wanted to see the "Top Anime", you could look at the Top Anime list on MAL (myanimelist), but thats just going to give you what the most popular anime right now are, rather than what is the best. If you would rather us just list out some of our favorite shows that we think are really good, that would be a whole lot easier. And in my case, I'd say Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Gunbuster, and Gundam Unicorn.
Sometimes though, there are similarities between top anime lists in different websites. For popularity usually, Clannad, Death Note, and Code Geass are in the top 10 for most websites. For the top rated, you can usually find LoGH, Steins; Gate (well, for some of them), and Code Geass.
I'm sorry, any list that has Code Geass R2 in the top 10 automatically disqualifies itself as legitimate, regardless of anything else on there. Like if you take MAL's top 10, what anime actually deserve to be up there, imo? Legend of the Galactic Heroes, and Clannad. Stein;Gate, FMA, Disappearance, and TTGL are good shows, but top 10 anime of all time? I dunno, maybe someone can make the case for TTGL considering how popular it is and how biased I am. But other than TTGL, no they don't. Another thing, Rebuild of Evangelion is up there, rather than the original show. I hate Evangelion more than most people here, but thought the Rebuild movies were better, but still... There is no way Rebuild should be up there, and no matter how much I dislike Evangelion, there is no question about the impact it left on the industry. Gundam Unicorn isn't even close to the top, when thats one of the best anime productions in forever.
On December 23 2011 06:56 tonight wrote: GC is only 12 episodes? This whole time I was thinking it was 24 >:|
I'd also disagree about FMA. While maybe not empirically one of the best, it has such a wide range that many, if not most, anime viewers would have it in their top 10 if you asked them. It was also one of the first "big" shows in the western audience, and I think one of the best selling Manga overseas as well.
Stein;Gate is just FotM right now. I still haven't seen it, and don't really have any inclination to.
It's not an aggregation site like an IMDB is, it's a current ranking. Great shows will always be like, top 50, but the top 10 changes so much that it's silly to go off of it.
On December 23 2011 07:05 Requizen wrote: MAL also fluctuates a lot, like I said.
I'd also disagree about FMA. While maybe not empirically one of the best, it has such a wide range that many, if not most, anime viewers would have it in their top 10 if you asked them. It was also one of the first "big" shows in the western audience, and I think one of the best selling Manga overseas as well.
Stein;Gate is just FotM right now. I still haven't seen it, and don't really have any inclination to.
It's not an aggregation site like an IMDB is, it's a current ranking. Great shows will always be like, top 50, but the top 10 changes so much that it's silly to go off of it.
Same thing could be said about Naruto and Bleach. Or Code Geass and Death Note. Popularity=/=quality. FMA is good, but top 10 good? No, not unless you decide what is top 10 based on popularity.
I guess I should be happy that Madoka isn't somehow anywhere near the top 10 anime as well, considering how fotm that show is.
On December 23 2011 07:05 Requizen wrote: MAL also fluctuates a lot, like I said.
I'd also disagree about FMA. While maybe not empirically one of the best, it has such a wide range that many, if not most, anime viewers would have it in their top 10 if you asked them. It was also one of the first "big" shows in the western audience, and I think one of the best selling Manga overseas as well.
Stein;Gate is just FotM right now. I still haven't seen it, and don't really have any inclination to.
It's not an aggregation site like an IMDB is, it's a current ranking. Great shows will always be like, top 50, but the top 10 changes so much that it's silly to go off of it.
Same thing could be said about Naruto and Bleach. Or Code Geass and Death Note. Popularity=/=quality. FMA is good, but top 10 good? No, not unless you decide what is top 10 based on popularity.
I guess I should be happy that Madoka isn't somehow anywhere near the top 10 anime as well, considering how fotm that show is.
I dunno, I guess I could be biased, as I'm one of those people who has FMA in his top 10, but that might just be because I grew up with it and the manga was one of the first I fully collected on a volume-by-volume basis.
While I said what I said earlier about being uncomfortable with the idea of a professional anime critic (as in, someone who got paid to rate them or whatever, a Ebert and Roper type), I'd be interested if someone made a very legit ranking system, and see how many anime fell in. Like, animation, VA (both Japanese and English), soundtrack, story, characters, etc.
I'd imagine the ones you'd expect would be high, but it would be neat to see others as well.
On December 23 2011 02:18 Requizen wrote: So I was discussing this with some people on Vent the other day, made me think a bit.
Why do you watch anime? Not in a condescending "children's cartoons" tone, but as in, what draws you to it?
The three big things that we focused on were these:
1) Animation style. The art style is generally pleasing to watch (depending on show), simple enough to differentiate characters and places, but can be detailed enough for any art lover to enjoy.
2) Story style. While most American shows (and comics, cartoons, etc), have their characters and long-running timelines, they often don't have an overarching plot, usually just separate arcs based on season that often don't have anything to do with one another. Take Stargate for example. Great show, and there is a plot (stop Goa'uld from taking over the galaxy), but most episodes and sometimes arcs have nothing to do with this. Anime is usually self-contained and follows the story with little to no wandering, one structured plot/story with character development that ties in. This is my favorite, if the wall of text wasn't a clue.
3) This is the tricky one. It sounds sorta racist, but some people like it for the "japanese-y" style. Not as in weeaboo, per se, but they like the style of humor in anime, or the character archetypes, or something like that which is a cultural thing. Anime has a tenancy to "whiplash" tone and emotion. FMA, for example, will go from goofy humor to action to serious plot in the span of a few minutes in some scenes, which isn't something you see often in western shows/animation.
Do these describe why you like anime? Or is it something else?
Anime tends to be larger than life, which is why I prefer it to most normal television shows. Although that applies to American cartoons like Family Guy, where things can happen that just can't happen in a normal sitcom. It's also extremely accessible, which is great.
#2 applies somewhat to me. While I mainly just watch anime for entertainment, I do like the fact that an over-arching plotline exists for most. Also the comedy in anime tends to be a lot different than american television.
On December 23 2011 05:29 Southlight wrote: You may also get stuff like Buffy, Firefly, Friends, various asian Dramas, history channel stuff. You may get Jackie Chan stuff, Star Trek, Toy Story, Disney films, etc.
In essence you'd get a giant list of shows and films internationally and across nearly a century.
Obviously Japanese anime has a smaller list to choose from.
But not if you were talking to people who actually knew TV or film, and weren't just casual viewers. I mean sure, my parents would probably say that NCIS is the greatest show ever, but you also wouldn't see them posting in a thread about TV shows ...
Yeah, but you're basically relying on "professional" critics of anime who watch it intellectually to try to rationalize what is or is not the best of animes.
At that point it's just a matter of realizing that we all want to watch anime for fun and we deem animes as "best" or "worst" depending on our enjoyment, emotional reaction, etc. from said animes.
Like, I could be here saying that an anime like Clannad was great, and then someone else next to me could've seen entirely differently, depending on a character that he didn't like, or something like that.
Honestly, I kind of loathe the day where someone describes themselves as a "professional anime critic". Like you said, it's not really like books or movies where you have to take each one seriously. Taking things like, say, most Gainax shows seriously is a bad idea. But they're usually very enjoyable. Same for a lot of gag shows like Shin-chan. Not that I like Shin-chan, but some people do, and if you try to critique it alongside something like Cowboy Bebop, it's not even the same realm of imagining.
It's a medium as much as any other medium. I hate when people like you try to forgive sloppily made anime by saying "It's fun and stuff and its not like watching a movie why u hate on it!!! omg go read a book if you want to be intellectual u jerk! its ur own subjective opinion why dont u let me like this?!?! omg you cant judge dis objectively!".
There is a difference between Hollywood films and Arthouse films, just as there is between Gainax and Yoshitoshi Abe. There is more inbreeding and repetition since it's localized to one single cultural background, but it doesn't mean it's any less a medium. The reason why anime isn't an accepted cultural instance that is judged by professionals is part due to the rarity of artistic anime, mostly because the demographics is generally toward teenagers or children. And teenagers (or adults in denial) who enjoy anime do it often because of how much they like characters, making the construction of a deeper meaning, message, atmosphere or structure overwhelming and unnecessary. Unfortunately.
On December 23 2011 02:18 Requizen wrote: So I was discussing this with some people on Vent the other day, made me think a bit.
Why do you watch anime? Not in a condescending "children's cartoons" tone, but as in, what draws you to it?
The three big things that we focused on were these:
1) Animation style. The art style is generally pleasing to watch (depending on show), simple enough to differentiate characters and places, but can be detailed enough for any art lover to enjoy.
2) Story style. While most American shows (and comics, cartoons, etc), have their characters and long-running timelines, they often don't have an overarching plot, usually just separate arcs based on season that often don't have anything to do with one another. Take Stargate for example. Great show, and there is a plot (stop Goa'uld from taking over the galaxy), but most episodes and sometimes arcs have nothing to do with this. Anime is usually self-contained and follows the story with little to no wandering, one structured plot/story with character development that ties in. This is my favorite, if the wall of text wasn't a clue.
3) This is the tricky one. It sounds sorta racist, but some people like it for the "japanese-y" style. Not as in weeaboo, per se, but they like the style of humor in anime, or the character archetypes, or something like that which is a cultural thing. Anime has a tenancy to "whiplash" tone and emotion. FMA, for example, will go from goofy humor to action to serious plot in the span of a few minutes in some scenes, which isn't something you see often in western shows/animation.
Do these describe why you like anime? Or is it something else?
Anime tends to be larger than life, which is why I prefer it to most normal television shows. Although that applies to American cartoons like Family Guy, where things can happen that just can't happen in a normal sitcom. It's also extremely accessible, which is great.
#2 applies somewhat to me. While I mainly just watch anime for entertainment, I do like the fact that an over-arching plotline exists for most. Also the comedy in anime tends to be a lot different than american television.
There's a whole genre of slice-of-life anime. o_O
None of those are larger than life. I think they're basically about life.
On December 23 2011 05:29 Southlight wrote: You may also get stuff like Buffy, Firefly, Friends, various asian Dramas, history channel stuff. You may get Jackie Chan stuff, Star Trek, Toy Story, Disney films, etc.
In essence you'd get a giant list of shows and films internationally and across nearly a century.
Obviously Japanese anime has a smaller list to choose from.
But not if you were talking to people who actually knew TV or film, and weren't just casual viewers. I mean sure, my parents would probably say that NCIS is the greatest show ever, but you also wouldn't see them posting in a thread about TV shows ...
Yeah, but you're basically relying on "professional" critics of anime who watch it intellectually to try to rationalize what is or is not the best of animes.
At that point it's just a matter of realizing that we all want to watch anime for fun and we deem animes as "best" or "worst" depending on our enjoyment, emotional reaction, etc. from said animes.
Like, I could be here saying that an anime like Clannad was great, and then someone else next to me could've seen entirely differently, depending on a character that he didn't like, or something like that.
Honestly, I kind of loathe the day where someone describes themselves as a "professional anime critic". Like you said, it's not really like books or movies where you have to take each one seriously. Taking things like, say, most Gainax shows seriously is a bad idea. But they're usually very enjoyable. Same for a lot of gag shows like Shin-chan. Not that I like Shin-chan, but some people do, and if you try to critique it alongside something like Cowboy Bebop, it's not even the same realm of imagining.
Oh, missed this post, just want to make one small comment. There is a huge difference between New Gainex shows and Old Gainex shows. Newer stuff like FLCL or TTGL you aren't supposed to take seriously, but Old Gainex like Gunbuster and Evangelion are meant to be taken seriously.
On December 23 2011 05:29 Southlight wrote: You may also get stuff like Buffy, Firefly, Friends, various asian Dramas, history channel stuff. You may get Jackie Chan stuff, Star Trek, Toy Story, Disney films, etc.
In essence you'd get a giant list of shows and films internationally and across nearly a century.
Obviously Japanese anime has a smaller list to choose from.
But not if you were talking to people who actually knew TV or film, and weren't just casual viewers. I mean sure, my parents would probably say that NCIS is the greatest show ever, but you also wouldn't see them posting in a thread about TV shows ...
Yeah, but you're basically relying on "professional" critics of anime who watch it intellectually to try to rationalize what is or is not the best of animes.
At that point it's just a matter of realizing that we all want to watch anime for fun and we deem animes as "best" or "worst" depending on our enjoyment, emotional reaction, etc. from said animes.
Like, I could be here saying that an anime like Clannad was great, and then someone else next to me could've seen entirely differently, depending on a character that he didn't like, or something like that.
Honestly, I kind of loathe the day where someone describes themselves as a "professional anime critic". Like you said, it's not really like books or movies where you have to take each one seriously. Taking things like, say, most Gainax shows seriously is a bad idea. But they're usually very enjoyable. Same for a lot of gag shows like Shin-chan. Not that I like Shin-chan, but some people do, and if you try to critique it alongside something like Cowboy Bebop, it's not even the same realm of imagining.
It's a medium as much as any other medium. I hate when people like you try to forgive sloppily made anime by saying "It's fun and stuff and its not like watching a movie why u hate on it!!! omg go read a book if you want to be intellectual u jerk! its ur own subjective opinion why dont u let me like this?!?! omg you cant judge dis objectively!".
There is a difference between Hollywood films and Arthouse films, just as there is between Gainax and Yoshitoshi Abe. There is more inbreeding and repetition since it's localized to one single cultural background, but it doesn't mean it's any less a medium. The reason why anime isn't an accepted cultural instance that is judged by professionals is part due to the rarity of artistic anime, mostly because the demographics is generally toward teenagers or children. And teenagers (or adults in denial) who enjoy anime do it often because of how much they like characters, making the construction of a deeper meaning, message, atmosphere or structure overwhelming and unnecessary. Unfortunately.
That's a good outlook on it. I agree with the "just another medium", but I was talking in broad strokes. Artsy anime is few and far between, shounen, shoujo, and seinen (and derivatives of each) are the majority of anime series out there.
Characters are another big thing about anime, I find. You see a lot more character-focused stories out there than you do in western television or movies. Video games do this as well, better than anything else in my opinion, but I digress.
I'm not saying no anime can be judged because it's just fun, but there are series that are designed like that. TTGL isn't deep or intellectual (debatable, I know), but it sure as hell is fun. You don't compare it to something like a Studio Ghibli film, though.
I'm not saying that bad anime be forgiven, I'm saying that not all anime is made equal. Not all are taken seriously. Not all are made to be.
On December 23 2011 05:29 Southlight wrote: You may also get stuff like Buffy, Firefly, Friends, various asian Dramas, history channel stuff. You may get Jackie Chan stuff, Star Trek, Toy Story, Disney films, etc.
In essence you'd get a giant list of shows and films internationally and across nearly a century.
Obviously Japanese anime has a smaller list to choose from.
But not if you were talking to people who actually knew TV or film, and weren't just casual viewers. I mean sure, my parents would probably say that NCIS is the greatest show ever, but you also wouldn't see them posting in a thread about TV shows ...
Yeah, but you're basically relying on "professional" critics of anime who watch it intellectually to try to rationalize what is or is not the best of animes.
At that point it's just a matter of realizing that we all want to watch anime for fun and we deem animes as "best" or "worst" depending on our enjoyment, emotional reaction, etc. from said animes.
Like, I could be here saying that an anime like Clannad was great, and then someone else next to me could've seen entirely differently, depending on a character that he didn't like, or something like that.
Honestly, I kind of loathe the day where someone describes themselves as a "professional anime critic". Like you said, it's not really like books or movies where you have to take each one seriously. Taking things like, say, most Gainax shows seriously is a bad idea. But they're usually very enjoyable. Same for a lot of gag shows like Shin-chan. Not that I like Shin-chan, but some people do, and if you try to critique it alongside something like Cowboy Bebop, it's not even the same realm of imagining.
Oh, missed this post, just want to make one small comment. There is a huge difference between New Gainex shows and Old Gainex shows. Newer stuff like FLCL or TTGL you aren't supposed to take seriously, but Old Gainex like Gunbuster and Evangelion are meant to be taken seriously.
Right, right. Not going to debate that, lol. I think they got all the serious out of their system and then just said fuck it, Rule of Cool time. Now we have PSG.
On December 23 2011 05:46 Requizen wrote: Speaking of which, I still haven't watched Gintama. But every description I read of it makes me think of generic shonen with wacky sci-fi universe.
Gintama is actually far more comedy oriented than shounen. I've only watched 50 or so episodes, but I find it one of the funnier comedies. That said, with so many episodes, it can get a little hit or miss. One part I liked: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ-HbkLpHtE
I found this clip very humorous. I heard of Gintama from time to time but never really cared to check it out. So decided to check MAL for more info, and the first thing I noticed was:
"Gintama Eps. 201"
"Gintama` (season 2) - The continuation of Gintama."
On December 23 2011 05:29 Southlight wrote: You may also get stuff like Buffy, Firefly, Friends, various asian Dramas, history channel stuff. You may get Jackie Chan stuff, Star Trek, Toy Story, Disney films, etc.
In essence you'd get a giant list of shows and films internationally and across nearly a century.
Obviously Japanese anime has a smaller list to choose from.
But not if you were talking to people who actually knew TV or film, and weren't just casual viewers. I mean sure, my parents would probably say that NCIS is the greatest show ever, but you also wouldn't see them posting in a thread about TV shows ...
Yeah, but you're basically relying on "professional" critics of anime who watch it intellectually to try to rationalize what is or is not the best of animes.
At that point it's just a matter of realizing that we all want to watch anime for fun and we deem animes as "best" or "worst" depending on our enjoyment, emotional reaction, etc. from said animes.
Like, I could be here saying that an anime like Clannad was great, and then someone else next to me could've seen entirely differently, depending on a character that he didn't like, or something like that.
Honestly, I kind of loathe the day where someone describes themselves as a "professional anime critic". Like you said, it's not really like books or movies where you have to take each one seriously. Taking things like, say, most Gainax shows seriously is a bad idea. But they're usually very enjoyable. Same for a lot of gag shows like Shin-chan. Not that I like Shin-chan, but some people do, and if you try to critique it alongside something like Cowboy Bebop, it's not even the same realm of imagining.
It's a medium as much as any other medium. I hate when people like you try to forgive sloppily made anime by saying "It's fun and stuff and its not like watching a movie why u hate on it!!! omg go read a book if you want to be intellectual u jerk! its ur own subjective opinion why dont u let me like this?!?! omg you cant judge dis objectively!".
There is a difference between Hollywood films and Arthouse films, just as there is between Gainax and Yoshitoshi Abe. There is more inbreeding and repetition since it's localized to one single cultural background, but it doesn't mean it's any less a medium. The reason why anime isn't an accepted cultural instance that is judged by professionals is part due to the rarity of artistic anime, mostly because the demographics is generally toward teenagers or children. And teenagers (or adults in denial) who enjoy anime do it often because of how much they like characters, making the construction of a deeper meaning, message, atmosphere or structure overwhelming and unnecessary. Unfortunately.
That's a good outlook on it. I agree with the "just another medium", but I was talking in broad strokes. Artsy anime is few and far between, shounen, shoujo, and seinen (and derivatives of each) are the majority of anime series out there.
Characters are another big thing about anime, I find. You see a lot more character-focused stories out there than you do in western television or movies. Video games do this as well, better than anything else in my opinion, but I digress.
I'm not saying no anime can be judged because it's just fun, but there are series that are designed like that. TTGL isn't deep or intellectual (debatable, I know), but it sure as hell is fun. You don't compare it to something like a Studio Ghibli film, though.
I'm not saying that bad anime be forgiven, I'm saying that not all anime is made equal. Not all are taken seriously. Not all are made to be.
On December 23 2011 05:29 Southlight wrote: You may also get stuff like Buffy, Firefly, Friends, various asian Dramas, history channel stuff. You may get Jackie Chan stuff, Star Trek, Toy Story, Disney films, etc.
In essence you'd get a giant list of shows and films internationally and across nearly a century.
Obviously Japanese anime has a smaller list to choose from.
But not if you were talking to people who actually knew TV or film, and weren't just casual viewers. I mean sure, my parents would probably say that NCIS is the greatest show ever, but you also wouldn't see them posting in a thread about TV shows ...
Yeah, but you're basically relying on "professional" critics of anime who watch it intellectually to try to rationalize what is or is not the best of animes.
At that point it's just a matter of realizing that we all want to watch anime for fun and we deem animes as "best" or "worst" depending on our enjoyment, emotional reaction, etc. from said animes.
Like, I could be here saying that an anime like Clannad was great, and then someone else next to me could've seen entirely differently, depending on a character that he didn't like, or something like that.
Honestly, I kind of loathe the day where someone describes themselves as a "professional anime critic". Like you said, it's not really like books or movies where you have to take each one seriously. Taking things like, say, most Gainax shows seriously is a bad idea. But they're usually very enjoyable. Same for a lot of gag shows like Shin-chan. Not that I like Shin-chan, but some people do, and if you try to critique it alongside something like Cowboy Bebop, it's not even the same realm of imagining.
Oh, missed this post, just want to make one small comment. There is a huge difference between New Gainex shows and Old Gainex shows. Newer stuff like FLCL or TTGL you aren't supposed to take seriously, but Old Gainex like Gunbuster and Evangelion are meant to be taken seriously.
Right, right. Not going to debate that, lol. I think they got all the serious out of their system and then just said fuck it, Rule of Cool time. Now we have PSG.
They got their seriousness out of their system when they made this:
On December 23 2011 02:18 Requizen wrote: So I was discussing this with some people on Vent the other day, made me think a bit.
Why do you watch anime? Not in a condescending "children's cartoons" tone, but as in, what draws you to it?
The three big things that we focused on were these:
1) Animation style. The art style is generally pleasing to watch (depending on show), simple enough to differentiate characters and places, but can be detailed enough for any art lover to enjoy.
2) Story style. While most American shows (and comics, cartoons, etc), have their characters and long-running timelines, they often don't have an overarching plot, usually just separate arcs based on season that often don't have anything to do with one another. Take Stargate for example. Great show, and there is a plot (stop Goa'uld from taking over the galaxy), but most episodes and sometimes arcs have nothing to do with this. Anime is usually self-contained and follows the story with little to no wandering, one structured plot/story with character development that ties in. This is my favorite, if the wall of text wasn't a clue.
3) This is the tricky one. It sounds sorta racist, but some people like it for the "japanese-y" style. Not as in weeaboo, per se, but they like the style of humor in anime, or the character archetypes, or something like that which is a cultural thing. Anime has a tenancy to "whiplash" tone and emotion. FMA, for example, will go from goofy humor to action to serious plot in the span of a few minutes in some scenes, which isn't something you see often in western shows/animation.
Do these describe why you like anime? Or is it something else?
I guess I came and stayed because it's often a different style of storytelling, compared to the shows in the west. I came into the manga/anime scene by reading Dragon ball (lol) and stayed because it was pretty captivating that there were a lot of new ways that series would end up (that said, I was like 10 back then, so it wasn't like I had experienced most of the western series).
There's definitely a bit of a disconnect sometimes. The values of some characters definitely do not line up for me sometimes, but I guess it's due to general moral values in Japan, I guess. For example, the main male character in the Kara no Kyoukai series (his name escapes me at this time) makes his decisions in a way I just can't fathom. That's not saying I find all characters to be stupid and do wrongly all the time, I just liked going off on that for a bit.
Also, the art is often nice to look at but it's in the back seat for me as far as enjoyment goes. Although I guess I could stop watching an anime if the art is utterly horrendous. In manga, shoujo-series tends to have an art style that I just can't stand.
Basically I just like storytelling in general, and if an anime intrigues me, I'll watch it.
On December 23 2011 05:29 Southlight wrote: You may also get stuff like Buffy, Firefly, Friends, various asian Dramas, history channel stuff. You may get Jackie Chan stuff, Star Trek, Toy Story, Disney films, etc.
In essence you'd get a giant list of shows and films internationally and across nearly a century.
Obviously Japanese anime has a smaller list to choose from.
But not if you were talking to people who actually knew TV or film, and weren't just casual viewers. I mean sure, my parents would probably say that NCIS is the greatest show ever, but you also wouldn't see them posting in a thread about TV shows ...
Yeah, but you're basically relying on "professional" critics of anime who watch it intellectually to try to rationalize what is or is not the best of animes.
At that point it's just a matter of realizing that we all want to watch anime for fun and we deem animes as "best" or "worst" depending on our enjoyment, emotional reaction, etc. from said animes.
Like, I could be here saying that an anime like Clannad was great, and then someone else next to me could've seen entirely differently, depending on a character that he didn't like, or something like that.
Honestly, I kind of loathe the day where someone describes themselves as a "professional anime critic". Like you said, it's not really like books or movies where you have to take each one seriously. Taking things like, say, most Gainax shows seriously is a bad idea. But they're usually very enjoyable. Same for a lot of gag shows like Shin-chan. Not that I like Shin-chan, but some people do, and if you try to critique it alongside something like Cowboy Bebop, it's not even the same realm of imagining.
I think I might take this post back. Nothing wrong with a professional anime critic, but I fear that it's just another thing that can be badly done to make anime not as acceptable in the eyes of the public. Like, I'm afraid of the day where we have a professional anime critic review Cardcaptor Sakura or something like it and rate it highly (because apparently it's widely liked, I haven't watched it since I was a kid), and then a new person sees it, and gets turned off by calling a magical girl show good.
It's similar to gaming, and how there used to be (and still is, as it goes) a stigma about them all being violence like GTA.
I dunno, I'm not the kind of person who hides the fact that I like anime, but I don't wave my love of it around because of the stigma. I don't want it to be a "secret club" or whatever, but I also get tired of people comparing every anime to Sailor Moon and DBZ, when things like Trigun or Samurai Champloo exist in their amazingness.
And then you get really good but really weird shows like the Gainax series or Soul Eater. You can't really recommend them to someone who's not a fan, because some of the parts of them might be a turn off.
On December 23 2011 05:29 Southlight wrote: You may also get stuff like Buffy, Firefly, Friends, various asian Dramas, history channel stuff. You may get Jackie Chan stuff, Star Trek, Toy Story, Disney films, etc.
In essence you'd get a giant list of shows and films internationally and across nearly a century.
Obviously Japanese anime has a smaller list to choose from.
But not if you were talking to people who actually knew TV or film, and weren't just casual viewers. I mean sure, my parents would probably say that NCIS is the greatest show ever, but you also wouldn't see them posting in a thread about TV shows ...
Yeah, but you're basically relying on "professional" critics of anime who watch it intellectually to try to rationalize what is or is not the best of animes.
At that point it's just a matter of realizing that we all want to watch anime for fun and we deem animes as "best" or "worst" depending on our enjoyment, emotional reaction, etc. from said animes.
Like, I could be here saying that an anime like Clannad was great, and then someone else next to me could've seen entirely differently, depending on a character that he didn't like, or something like that.
Honestly, I kind of loathe the day where someone describes themselves as a "professional anime critic". Like you said, it's not really like books or movies where you have to take each one seriously. Taking things like, say, most Gainax shows seriously is a bad idea. But they're usually very enjoyable. Same for a lot of gag shows like Shin-chan. Not that I like Shin-chan, but some people do, and if you try to critique it alongside something like Cowboy Bebop, it's not even the same realm of imagining.
I think I might take this post back. Nothing wrong with a professional anime critic, but I fear that it's just another thing that can be badly done to make anime not as acceptable in the eyes of the public. Like, I'm afraid of the day where we have a professional anime critic review Cardcaptor Sakura or something like it and rate it highly (because apparently it's widely liked, I haven't watched it since I was a kid), and then a new person sees it, and gets turned off by calling a magical girl show good.
It's similar to gaming, and how there used to be (and still is, as it goes) a stigma about them all being violence like GTA.
I dunno, I'm not the kind of person who hides the fact that I like anime, but I don't wave my love of it around because of the stigma. I don't want it to be a "secret club" or whatever, but I also get tired of people comparing every anime to Sailor Moon and DBZ, when things like Trigun or Samurai Champloo exist in their amazingness.
And then you get really good but really weird shows like the Gainax series or Soul Eater. You can't really recommend them to someone who's not a fan, because some of the parts of them might be a turn off.
Arg. Just frustrating to me.
Except Cardcaptor Sakura and Sailor Moon are pretty iconic magical girl shows that sort of define the genre. DBZ is hugely iconic as well, especially in the West.
EPT
