It is funny to me that while star wars fans always get angry when someone says that at the end of the day it is a story for children, the hardcore fans act exactly like children and cannot deal with nuance in their story. Not that the broken man luke skywalker was a masterpiece of storytelling, but in comparison to what fans apparently absolutely wanted it at least goes in the direction.
I don't think Star Wars was originally made for children, but for the general audience, children included. I can deal with nuance alright. Nuanced TLJ was not- lacking in basic causation and characterization is more like it. " to what fans apparently absolutely wanted it at least goes in the direction." It's weird how the counter-argument often is this hyperbolic 'you just wanted bad stuff anyways'. I didn't need post-resurrection Neo Luke. There's a middle ground like mentor type characters (Alec's Kenobi, Liam's Qui Gon, Anthony's Don Diego, etc).
I did want a good story that moved in new directions from the OT... we got a Frankenstein amalgamation of Empire and Return instead.
TLJ has propbably more nuance in luke's characterisation + Rey/Kylo dynamic than anything in the OT. Again, this is no character study, it is star wars, but in comparison it's still a thing. Are the movies filled with potential narrative problems? Yes absolutely, but so were the old ones and fans of the OT are incredibly inconsistent in applying the same criticism to the whole movie franchise. Star Wars is made for children, big story beats with some fun ideas, etc is what these movies are about, it's about good vs evil and an interesting setting to accompany that. TLJ actually tried to do a little more than that, which is nice to see. (even though one can argue about the execution of certain parts, like the hamfisted weapon dealer stuff or comments on the class gap).
So you wanted an obi wan kenobi copy while also saying that the movies are already too close to the OT, makes perfect sense to me
Anyway i don't think one party will convince the other here, we had similar talks before when TLJ was fresh. Personally i simply always have a hard time to really understand the hardcore OT fans when it comes to the new movies, i simply don't see a big difference in quality if we look at it holistically.
That's also post-prequels George. And if there's one thing I've learned from his interviews, is he changes his mind a lot. (Did he intend to make three movies, six movies, or a trilogy of trilogies- he said all three and denied he said the other ones each time he made his other claim.) But regardless of intention, the film he made was far more accessible to general audiences (children inclusive) than, let's sat a Disney or Pixar animated film that is intended for children, but is so well made that the general audience enjoys it. Point is, a good story is a good story, regardless of who it's intended for. And a bad story is a bad story, even if it's intended for kids.
"it's about good vs evil" Is it thought? I didn't really think that's what TLJ was going for. Stories have narrative problems. But TLJ has them in spades. I don't know if I've seen a big budget film that struggled so much with basic causation and relied so heavily on contrivance. If one is a mountain and the other a molehill, it's a false equivalence to say they are the same and to say fans are being inconsistent. If there are narrative problems, I will talk about them, even if they are in my favourite films (I think 'meat's back on the menu' and Legolas surfing on a shield are tonally inconsistent in Two Towers, but ultimately a pretty minor negative.)
I'm curious where you see nuance with Luke because I see flagrant contradiction and a series of character decisions that make little sense. I did enjoy his interactions with Rey though.
No I do not want to see a copy of Obi Wan Kenobi. (It's always all or nothing on the defence of TLJ.) I gave the mentor example as an alternative archetype which gives space for Luke without him needing to be super-Sayan like the other all or nothing defence suggests. But I deliberately used an Anthony Hopkins clip to demonstrate that this archetype can be played VERY in a wide range of ways and many different stories can be told using this role. Obi ≠ Qui Gon ≠ Morpheus ≠ Don Diego. And yet they fulfil a similar role without going super Sayan. Don Diego even gets a redemption/ justice/ revenge arc.
On March 20 2019 05:41 Falling wrote: No I do not want to see a copy of Obi Wan Kenobi. (It's always all or nothing on the defence of TLJ.) I gave the mentor example as an alternative archetype which gives space for Luke without him needing to be super-Sayan like the other all or nothing defence suggests. But I deliberately used an Anthony Hopkins clip to demonstrate that this archetype can be played VERY in a wide range of ways and many different stories can be told using this role. Obi ≠ Qui Gon ≠ Morpheus ≠ Don Diego. And yet they fulfil a similar role without going super Sayan. Don Diego even gets a redemption/ justice/ revenge arc.
When you mentioned Hopkins I couldn't help but picture Hamill portraying Luke as Lecter-like character. Mentoring Rey, mentioning that Jedi are wrong etc. for a big reveal later on that he's now evil as fuck and Snoke is actually his holo-characterization to deceive and mold Kylo. This way he could rule the galaxy by controlling the First Order and destroy the resistance from within using Rey. I would definitely watch that, even though most fans would probably be pretty outraged by it (or maybe not, in the EU Luke went Dark Side for a time too).
In any case, one of my biggest gripes with TLJ is that with all the possibilities that were presented to them they chose some of the dumbest and worst things imaginable. I think they just have too many characters and not enough time in the movie to flesh them out, which results in pretty much garbage. All the previous Star Wars movies had their stories revolve around few key characters (Luke, Han, Leia/Anakin, Obi-Wan, Padme/Rey, Finn, Kylo) now in TLJ you have Rey, Finn and Kylo, but you suddenly cram in Rose Tico as a lead for a big part of it, Poe takes a step to the front row too, along with Leia. Apart from that you expand your list of secondary/supporting characters and you end up with a complete clusterfuck. In previous movies you also had quite a number of supporting characters but they never really stole the spotlight from the main ones (Lando took Han's spotlight for a moment but at this point Han was frozen in carbonite so he was just filling the void).
In short, TLJ could definitely use more moderation and editing and then it could probably avoid most of the backlash.
Toy Story 4 trailer is out, not that hyped after watching it personally. Thought it was pretty similar sort of story to how the last one was played out;
Toy gets lost > Woody goes to find it > Adventure happen > Buzz leads the team to find Woody > Woody has change of heart about life etc.
Thought we might get something a bit more than that. Hopefully be a barrel of laughs though.
It is funny to me that while star wars fans always get angry when someone says that at the end of the day it is a story for children, the hardcore fans act exactly like children and cannot deal with nuance in their story. Not that the broken man luke skywalker was a masterpiece of storytelling, but in comparison to what fans apparently absolutely wanted it at least goes in the direction.
I don't think Star Wars was originally made for children, but for the general audience, children included. I can deal with nuance alright. Nuanced TLJ was not- lacking in basic causation and characterization is more like it. " to what fans apparently absolutely wanted it at least goes in the direction." It's weird how the counter-argument often is this hyperbolic 'you just wanted bad stuff anyways'. I didn't need post-resurrection Neo Luke. There's a middle ground like mentor type characters (Alec's Kenobi, Liam's Qui Gon, Anthony's Don Diego, etc). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxzQfROFbM0&t=0m25s
I did want a good story that moved in new directions from the OT... we got a Frankenstein amalgamation of Empire and Return instead.
TLJ has propbably more nuance in luke's characterisation + Rey/Kylo dynamic than anything in the OT. Again, this is no character study, it is star wars, but in comparison it's still a thing. Are the movies filled with potential narrative problems? Yes absolutely, but so were the old ones and fans of the OT are incredibly inconsistent in applying the same criticism to the whole movie franchise. Star Wars is made for children, big story beats with some fun ideas, etc is what these movies are about, it's about good vs evil and an interesting setting to accompany that. TLJ actually tried to do a little more than that, which is nice to see. (even though one can argue about the execution of certain parts, like the hamfisted weapon dealer stuff or comments on the class gap).
So you wanted an obi wan kenobi copy while also saying that the movies are already too close to the OT, makes perfect sense to me
Anyway i don't think one party will convince the other here, we had similar talks before when TLJ was fresh. Personally i simply always have a hard time to really understand the hardcore OT fans when it comes to the new movies, i simply don't see a big difference in quality if we look at it holistically.
That's also post-prequels George. And if there's one thing I've learned from his interviews, is he changes his mind a lot. (Did he intend to make three movies, six movies, or a trilogy of trilogies- he said all three and denied he said the other ones each time he made his other claim.) But regardless of intention, the film he made was far more accessible to general audiences (children inclusive) than, let's sat a Disney or Pixar animated film that is intended for children, but is so well made that the general audience enjoys it. Point is, a good story is a good story, regardless of who it's intended for. And a bad story is a bad story, even if it's intended for kids.
"it's about good vs evil" Is it thought? I didn't really think that's what TLJ was going for. Stories have narrative problems. But TLJ has them in spades. I don't know if I've seen a big budget film that struggled so much with basic causation and relied so heavily on contrivance. If one is a mountain and the other a molehill, it's a false equivalence to say they are the same and to say fans are being inconsistent. If there are narrative problems, I will talk about them, even if they are in my favourite films (I think 'meat's back on the menu' and Legolas surfing on a shield are tonally inconsistent in Two Towers, but ultimately a pretty minor negative.)
I'm curious where you see nuance with Luke because I see flagrant contradiction and a series of character decisions that make little sense. I did enjoy his interactions with Rey though.
No I do not want to see a copy of Obi Wan Kenobi. (It's always all or nothing on the defence of TLJ.) I gave the mentor example as an alternative archetype which gives space for Luke without him needing to be super-Sayan like the other all or nothing defence suggests. But I deliberately used an Anthony Hopkins clip to demonstrate that this archetype can be played VERY in a wide range of ways and many different stories can be told using this role. Obi ≠ Qui Gon ≠ Morpheus ≠ Don Diego. And yet they fulfil a similar role without going super Sayan. Don Diego even gets a redemption/ justice/ revenge arc.
I barely agree that star wars is all that different from disney or pixar films when it comes to that tbh, the narratives are just as simple, it is good vs evil (that is what i meant, star wars as a whole, especially the OT) with standard fantasy tropes and characters. The biggest difference is really that one is animated in a specific style and the other is live action. IIRC george lucas made a deal before a new hope came out to have the merchandising rights, with that in mind it makes even more sense to see the intent to capture the interest of kids, to sell toys. He also often spoke about influences like flash gordon, i think star wars was originally intended to be a flash gordon story. Anyway, i agree that a bad story stays a bad story regardless of the intended audience (at least to a large degree).
Sure it would be a false equivalence if the gap was as huge as you imply it to be, i simply don't agree with that at all. We live in the day and age of nitpicks, plotholes here and plotholes there (and most people misuse the term), instead of focusing on what the story wants to tell thematically, how they try to get certain emotions and reaction out of you, people largely focus on any possible narrative/logic problem. I am not saying that's completely worthless, some things are so contrived that it breaks the suspension of disbelief. It is a fairly hard topic to discuss as well because it's so subjective, what breaks it for you in case A with context B won't necessarily do the same for a lot of other people. Anyway, my point was that i don't see there being a big difference between the old star wars titles and the new ones and that people in general simply search for these things a lot more these days, it's no wonder there are youtube channels dedicated to do only that, no thematic analysis of narratives, just simple nitpicks all day long.
About Luke, well the nuance is in him being a broken man, a man who did wrong (kylo) and tries to deal with it now. It is one of the main themes in tlj, that of failure. The the jedi are not all good, they were too dogmatic and the school of old needs a new spin to be able to be sustainable into the future. The movie is full of these little additions to make it a little bit more mature in its motifs, this is no philosophical scifi film still ofc, but yeah i think it at least tried to include some parts to think about whereas the old movies really didn't and it was always extremely obvious what side was right/wrong. Luke was a mentor in the film as well btw, the idea of mentors and rolemodels is one which gets examined a little in tlj as well, also partly in poe's arc.
Also just to add it one more time, film is about a lot of things where the narrative itself is only one part. I think people do TLJ injustice by neglecting everything it does well outside of their perceived narrative problems.
On March 20 2019 22:24 Pandemona wrote: Toy Story 4 trailer is out, not that hyped after watching it personally. Thought it was pretty similar sort of story to how the last one was played out;
Toy gets lost > Woody goes to find it > Adventure happen > Buzz leads the team to find Woody > Woody has change of heart about life etc.
Thought we might get something a bit more than that. Hopefully be a barrel of laughs though.
While i definitely agree that one can break it down like that, i have the hope that they go in an existentialism direction with this story. The toys questioning if their existence is actually only valuable if they make children happy. Before it was always about making humans happy and the fundamental decision was about which human they choose, this seems to go deeper than that which is an interesting take imo.
Looking great, definitely the movie i most look forward to this year. Tarantino just knows how to make fun movies which still are targeted at an adult audience and still add some thematic depth.
The Biggest issue with lukes characterization is that hes not dealing with anything. He treats his lightsaber as a joke. He uses his x-wing's scrap as a door. He cuts himself off from the force rather then even temp himself with doing anything at all with what hes done. Hes not the jedi. He rejects the jedi for almost the entire movie. He spent all that time on the island and never read the books he was guarding.
He doesn't teach ray anything let alone the fencing ability to kill multiple pretorian guard at the same time. He doesn't teach her to lift rocks or even balance anything. Luke is framed as an insolent child in the firm that refuses to deal with consequences and would rather all his friends die than deal with even the most basic of responsibilities he has.
In the end ray ignores or defys even the most basic of things luke tells her. His sacrifice does nothing but ruin the authurian like hope story in exchange for a confusing ghost story that no one understands or should really give any credit to.
Ray is terrible because she is given no character background. depth. or development. Luke is made terrible on purpose to ruin everything for no benefit to the story.
I mean answer a basic question for me if you disagree. What does luke even do on the island? He doesn't ferment the milk he drinks so hes not a drunk hermit. He doesn't meditate beacuse that would connect him to the force. He clearly doesn't store food anywhere nor does he trade with anyone. He doesn't tend the force tree or read the books. What did he do on the island?
Minor correction: Rey kills three guards(or maybe two) and does only fights them one at a time. She is categorically worse at fighting than Kylo in that scene(who solos like 4-5 guards at once), though she does yell at that one guard real good.
Also, the film establishes that people with force powers learn to use their abilities naturally. This is also established in Empire, because Luke is not taught to pull the light saber to his hand in the previous film. Lifting rocks or using mind control doesn't seem like a big ask. The Jedi teachings seem to be more about control and avoiding/understanding the darker side of the force.
Any one who has had to work retail at some point in their life and is familiar with Star Wars Epsiodes 4, and 5 might like "Chad Vader : Day Shift Manager". The first few episodes are quite good and then the initial hook sorta gets old.
when i worked at Fedex-Kinkos 10+ years ago .. the Assistant Manager was as gung-ho as Chad Vader.
On March 21 2019 02:58 Plansix wrote: Minor correction: Rey kills three guards(or maybe two) and does only fights them one at a time. She is categorically worse at fighting than Kylo in that scene(who solos like 4-5 guards at once), though she does yell at that one guard real good.
Also, the film establishes that people with force powers learn to use their abilities naturally. This is also established in Empire, because Luke is not taught to pull the light saber to his hand in the previous film. Lifting rocks or using mind control doesn't seem like a big ask. The Jedi teachings seem to be more about control and avoiding/understanding the darker side of the force.
She blocks the weapons from three of them at once (god help me how she did that with one hand while all those guards where two handing their weapons) after stabbing one of the ones focusing on kylo at the start of the fight. After that its more or less vs two or one but she kills three on her own outright and manages to throw the lightsaber in the last kill. These are all useing exotic weapons to some degree that she has no right to have ever heard of let alone outfight.
Granted kylo is the one that is made to look like hes a better fighter but ray bails him out twice in the fight. Its a great two minutes but serves nothing but a series of rapid fire gotcha moments that ultimately tell the audience that ray has no actual character and star wars can not be anything other then rebel vs empire. The scene is in it of itself a gotcha moment where you don't get to see a lightsaber fight for the first time in a series that became popular in part beacuse lightsabers.
The difference is in the original trilogy luke is shown being told to lift things and struggling to lift things. he is shown that mind control is a thing and is never actually confronted with anything resembling dark side except for a super duper confusing mirror scene.
The writing to the story is simply not good. I apologize, without giving it more thought than it's worth it's such a general and vague criticism. But I feel it's accurate and I feel that most series succeed or die based on the writing and directing first. It's sad that despite being an abject failure of movie making IMO that the series will still be profitable and succeed.
Even wasting time to see that garbage movie in the first place was a fools errand. One I participated in. Thankfully I didn't pay a cent towards it since it does not deserve the money nor attention wasted on it. It was apparent after the first movie that there was going to be no true depth or entertaining qualities in these movies. They feel bland and forced because they are bland and forced. First movie we entertained the idea of giving JJ Abrams, the writers and actors etc a chance to prove themselves. They utterly failed in the first movie by not writing a single character in the series you could even remotely care about. They are movies devoid of inspiration, joy, or passion. A movie has utterly failed when you do not care about a single thing within the movie. Not a story arc you wish to see completed, nor a character, nor about which side wins or loses.
I actually had hopes for the series since JJ Abrams was in charge of Lost and there were many characters and stories you could genuinely care about. Many story arcs you actually wanted to see the resolution of or learn their histories. Whether it was Sayiid or the nerdy guy it didn't matter because the characters were compelling. Then again I suppose a series has far more time and lends itself to being able to flesh out ideas and stories in a far more interesting matter. Movies are constrained by nature and editing them and cutting them must be difficult. Time being the biggest constraint.
This series feels like a mess from multiple points. Writing, directing, casting, ideas and their implementation, etc. Just an all around mess. It's hard to know where the biggest points of blame lie or where to begin to criticize.
On March 21 2019 02:58 Plansix wrote: Minor correction: Rey kills three guards(or maybe two) and does only fights them one at a time. She is categorically worse at fighting than Kylo in that scene(who solos like 4-5 guards at once), though she does yell at that one guard real good.
Also, the film establishes that people with force powers learn to use their abilities naturally. This is also established in Empire, because Luke is not taught to pull the light saber to his hand in the previous film. Lifting rocks or using mind control doesn't seem like a big ask. The Jedi teachings seem to be more about control and avoiding/understanding the darker side of the force.
She blocks the weapons from three of them at once (god help me how she did that with one hand while all those guards where two handing their weapons) after stabbing one of the ones focusing on kylo at the start of the fight. After that its more or less vs two or one but she kills three on her own outright and manages to throw the lightsaber in the last kill. These are all useing exotic weapons to some degree that she has no right to have ever heard of let alone outfight.
Granted kylo is the one that is made to look like hes a better fighter but ray bails him out twice in the fight. Its a great two minutes but serves nothing but a series of rapid fire gotcha moments that ultimately tell the audience that ray has no actual character and star wars can not be anything other then rebel vs empire. The scene is in it of itself a gotcha moment where you don't get to see a lightsaber fight for the first time in a series that became popular in part beacuse lightsabers.
The difference is in the original trilogy luke is shown being told to lift things and struggling to lift things. he is shown that mind control is a thing and is never actually confronted with anything resembling dark side except for a super duper confusing mirror scene.
I mean, he’s an ace jet pilot from a farm that destroys a facist super weapon on is first sortie. But he did miss once, so that is a bit of a struggle.
But this is dumb. I liked the movie, you didn’t. It’s ok to have personal likes and dislikes.
Loads of people like bad movies all the time. A certain amount of this stuff is always subjective. Its not like TLJ was like The Room, its a well made movie. Personally I don't get why anyone would like Fast and the Furious but they do. Sometimes personal taste overrides quality.
On March 21 2019 15:20 Sermokala wrote: Yeah but I just fundamentally don't get why anyone likes the movie as a whole. Every argument I see is either objectively wrong or doesn't make sense.
On March 21 2019 15:20 Sermokala wrote: Yeah but I just fundamentally don't get why anyone likes the movie as a whole. Every argument I see is either objectively wrong or doesn't make sense.
Fair, though to this day I don’t understand why people who the phrase “objectively wrong” when discussing art of any type.
I am just going to say, me and my dad have seen every transformers movie in the cinema and loved every single one (minus the opening 10 minutes of the latest one, we were like the fuck is Merlin doing in a transformers film xd)
But that is to the point where this film is criticized around the globe by everyone, yet idiots like me and my dad love it lol.
I also echo Plansix statement, where movies are art form and someones treasure is another mans trash. Defo works well in this industry, but of course the big movies are always the ones that can appeal to everyone rather than a select few.
It is ok to like some hot trash, which is why I unapologetically love the movie Avatar, even as I make fun of its space white savior narrative and cheer when that very big robot pulls out that very tiny robot knife.
On March 21 2019 15:20 Sermokala wrote: Yeah but I just fundamentally don't get why anyone likes the movie as a whole. Every argument I see is either objectively wrong or doesn't make sense.
And i don't get why people dislike the movie as much as they do, every argument i see is objectively wrong or tries to nitpick the movie to a degree where it's just hilariously dumb. One sees so many hyperboles around this movie that one would imagine it to be one of the worst movies ever, when in reality it is a star wars movies with flaws and strengths like any other star wars movie before (and of the 8 main saga movies it is one of the best, deal with it)
In this one we follow elio, a 17 year old young adult who enjoys his vacation with his parents in their villa in italy. They are a family of high culture, the dad is a professor of archaeology and the whole family speaks multiple languages, is interested in music and literature, etc. During that time the father invites a 24 year old student, oliver, to live with the family and help him with studies. Soon enough there is some kind of bond between the 24 year old and the 17 year old elio. This movie perfectly captures what intimacy and ultimately love are like and about, never looking for the gratuitous nude shots, rather looking for the shots which help to establish the connection between the characters. It is done with a lot of grace when there needs to be grace, it also can do weird things to throw you off though (peach!), but even these scenes ultimately feed into the main themes. In the 2nd half of the movie there is a scene with elio and his dad which might be one of the strongest scenes i have seen in recent years, absolutely breathtaking. All the acting is great, timothée chalamet especially gives an incredible peformance and would have deserved the oscar for sure. There being a lot of references to works of art helps the movie to establish the family structure, but also reeinforces the story's motifs, "is it better to speak or to die". Fantastic movie!
EPT
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