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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16711 Posts
Its interesting Iger disappeared from Twitter a few months ago. Maybe he saw today's merger coming ahead of time. These layoffs are not going to make him the most popular guy around. https://ca.ign.com/articles/2019/03/21/fox-layoffs-begin-following-disney-merger-4000-jobs-expected-to-be-cut | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51485 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On March 23 2019 10:19 Manit0u wrote: + Show Spoiler + I just didn't feel like writing an entire article just on that. I'm just listing stuff that happens to him because those are some of the key moments when we can see his flaws and decisions he makes. Luke in the NT was just a worse version of Yoda. Supposedly deranged hermit that's actually wiser and more powerful than you can imagine. Unlike in the OT though, where they show that Yoda is the real deal around the same time Luke decides to abandon his badass training to go off and save his friends (against Yoda's advice, did anyone mention depth here?). In ep9 the only scene that shows us the extent of Luke's power is almost at the end of the movie, with all the lasers and duel, which has absolutely nothing to do with Rey's training etc. In the OT the end of training was one of the truly pivotal moments in the series. It was at the time when Luke was starting to actually get the Force and realizing that maybe there's more to Yoda than meets the eye. Then he's confronted with a vision of his friends being in trouble and presented with a choice - either continue training so that he can fully realize himself and save the galaxy, but (potentially) sacrifice his friends or go and try save his friends while not being ready, thus actually reducing the chance of saving them and the galaxy. It is a moment where Luke fails despite his best efforts (needs to lift X-wing from the swamp to fly off and save his friends) and Yoda reveals his true power (lifting X-wing from the swamp like it's no big deal). This single scene has more depth than the entirety of ep9. Luke is torn between training (which could potentially benefit everyone in the future) and his friends (which would benefit his friends in the short term but undermine everything else in the long run). It is also the moment where we see that even though he was training hard he wasn't 100% sure it's legit. Only after Yoda lifts the X-wing does he realize the gravity of the choice he's about to make... You could probably write an entire book and a series of articles based just off the events happening on Dagobah, and then you realize you're not even halfway into the movie. There's nothing like that in the new films. Not even close. Edit: But disregard all of the above. Let's just focus on the ep4. Luke is a naive, uneducated farmboy who dreams of becoming a pilot and be cool with his friends. During this single movie his entire world is being shattered - his family dies, he has to seek refuge with some deranged hermit and bigger-than-life rogue swimming in debts. He has to learn the hard way that the world is a cruel place, not everyone is a nice guy (including people he's going to accompany for a forseeable future) and that he just doesn't know what the fuck is going on in the universe. We still love him because despite being exposed to all of that he does everything in his power to remain positive, be a good guy and go against the flow, even though this attitude is pretty much frowned upon by everyone around him and more often than not leads to trouble. Now contrast this with ep7, where we see Rey as an outsider but overall a competent and savvy person. Everything just falls into place for her and there's not even much to talk about. After the death of his family (remember that initially Luke wasn't really keen on leaving Tatooine and his life) Luke clings to Kenobi as a father figure and mentor (and possibly the only other remotely good person in his entourage) only to witness his death. He is now lost, good-hearted naive guy stuck with rogues and rebels. It's completely different for Rey. She's the one to actually save Finn, she's the one to steal MF and fly them away. Meeting Han on the way is just a convenient plot point to show off more how awesome she is (as she single-handedly saves them all). And then she proceeds to win a light saber duel with one of the few remaining people who even know about it (it took Luke 3 movies to actually win a light saber duel). Where's depth in that? You wrote all of that to basically lay out the most basic main character traits ever. The guy who does everything for his friends, is naive and in general wants to do good. That's like any shonen anime main character, something which is targeted at children. There is no depth there, like none at all. The decision you talk about here is in fact extremely similar to the one rose makes in tlj, an underdeveloped character everyone hates now (though hers was more immediate) In TLJ Luke actually gets more than that, he grew up and made a critical mistake which led to a new state of terror and suffering. His way of dealing with that was to go into exile in shame, another fault, he is disillusioned, almost cynical now until rey arrives and he sees the message of his sister. That gives him enough strength due to the memories of old to at least try again. At the end he somewhat redeems himself with an act of sacrifice and heroism, that's the luke of old again. As i said, Hamill's best performance on top of giving some edge to luke skywalker. Most interesting version of luke in the movie franchise easily. I think i am done arguing about this though, i don't wanna give this topic so much time, star wars isn't nearly good enough to justify it. Kinda sad that marvel and star wars get so much talk and all the good movies barely get any  | ||
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Emnjay808
United States10656 Posts
The Hateful Eight: well that was as Tarantino as u can get lol. I do enjoy me an aggressive “mystery thriller” with un-chronological story telling. Those three hours sorta breezed by. 7.5/10. Prolly only watchable once tbh | ||
Falling
Canada11350 Posts
Sure it would be a false equivalence if the gap was as huge as you imply it to be, i simply don't agree with that at all. We live in the day and age of nitpicks, plotholes here and plotholes there (and most people misuse the term), instead of focusing on what the story wants to tell thematically, how they try to get certain emotions and reaction out of you, people largely focus on any possible narrative/logic problem. I am not saying that's completely worthless, some things are so contrived that it breaks the suspension of disbelief. It is a fairly hard topic to discuss as well because it's so subjective, what breaks it for you in case A with context B won't necessarily do the same for a lot of other people. Themes are built on story elements. And what a filmmaker intends to do is not the same thing as them successfully executing their vision. (That's why movies that are so bad, they are funny are a thing- the execution failed in a really hilarious fashion.) Building your story on contrivance after contrivance with no thought to how one story piece connects to other negatively impacts the emotional resonance and can undercut your themes. I mean, themes in and of themselves are not great if they are improperly integrated because it turns into didactic moralism, which (if you like good stories) is just irritating to watch through, even if you agree with the moral. About Luke, well the nuance is in him being a broken man, a man who did wrong (kylo) and tries to deal with it now. It is one of the main themes in tlj, that of failure. The the jedi are not all good, they were too dogmatic and the school of old needs a new spin to be able to be sustainable into the future. The movie is full of these little additions to make it a little bit more mature in its motifs, this is no philosophical scifi film still ofc, but yeah i think it at least tried to include some parts to think about whereas the old movies really didn't and it was always extremely obvious what side was right/wrong. I like the idea of Luke being a broken man... but I don't think they gave us grounds for why he got there. From what they showed, they gave us a character rewrite, which isn't nuanced. It would have been interesting if Luke had been overconfident about his ability to bring people back from the dark side- that he was unwilling to make the hard decisions because he thought he could pull a Vader convert 2.0 on Kylo, but he's wrong this time. That would have some nuance because his decisions flow from his past experience. Murder in the night with a sleeping nephew who had some dark visions isn't nuance as far as I understand the word. We just lock those people up - or at least put a restraining order on them. The old Jedi were perhaps dogmatic... but Luke is the wrong vehicle to be disillusioned about the dogmaticism of the past... he was never a dogmatist in the first place. His main point of contention between himself and his mentors was whether or not Vader could be saved. There's no indication that the version of the Jedi that Luke is going to bring back is a dogmatic one- when all he does is challenge his mentors. It's an interesting idea, but you can't just copy-paste that conflict point on to anybody... besides his reasoning makes no sense. Jedi messed up at the end, but helped the galaxy for a thousand years (or a thousand generations- take your pick). The Republic didn't even need a standing army because of the Jedi. That's pretty good. And then the Sith take over for a couple decades, blow up a bunch of planets and fizzle out. Within the framework of the Star Wars universe, they are not morally equivalent- as long as there are Sith in the galaxy, they seem hellbent in blowing up planets. At the very least Luke could end the Sith first and then end the Jedi. But most of his musings no make sense in the context of what he has seen. And these are not nitpicks. These problems under gird the stories RJ is telling- the base that he's building on his rotten. How do you get theme except by narrative and characterization? If both are off, your 'theme' is paper thin- an Idea that's spoken about, but isn't embedded in the story itself. Characters talking about the theme of the story is cheap and easy. When your narrative directly contradicts your anti-self-sacrifice theme (Holdo vs Finn vs Poe vs Rose's sister vs Luke! at the end)- both contradicting each other within minutes of each other), you may have intended to make an interesting theme, but stumbled and fell in the execution. I get that Luke had a massive discrepancy to episode 6, but imo he worked if you look past the fact that he shouldn't have thought about killing Kylo ...but that's the main thing. That's why all of TFA hinges on 'where is Luke'. It's why Luke isn't mentoring anyone and we didn't have the Return of the Jedi... so I guess we'll get The REAL Return of the Jedi Electric Boogaloo Part II (for real though, they are back in this one.) It's not the thing that bothered me the most while watching in theatres- the absolute wreck of the Cruiser plot just blew my mind on how such a stupid plot could be let through. But the Luke rewrite is the thing that sits with me the most after the fact. Actually meditate on how dark and light aren't just good and bad? Nice. Still have it end up just light = fake rebellion = good and dark = fake Empire = bad at the end of the movie? Not so nice. Talk about how the resistance and first order both fuel a massive economic war machine? Nice, even if the planet was a useless sidequest CGI mess to rival Wonder Woman's ending. Acknowledge it in any way in the ending? Nah, that'd be too much work. Need to sell toys, after all. And, worst, have Kylo talk about shedding the past and making a new peace in the galaxy? Interesting, if kind of how all dark siders work. Have him still just say "lul even though there's only like 15 people in the Resistance you gotta let me kill them Rey instead of talking to them for 5 seconds"? Pretty dumb. If you're going to put a bunch of cool twists and transgressions in your movie, make them stick! I agree very much with this. There are moments in the movie (when cutting through the nonsense plotting), where I thought, well this is interesting, where are they going to take it? Absolutely nowhere. They destroyed the old, teased at some potentially interesting ideas and then failed to deliver. Miss me. I was ready to see Rey save Kylo, but lose herself to the Dark Side in the process. Now that would have been interesting. But they teased these ideas and then we end up exactly where we left off at the end of TFA... except with a non-existent Rebellion (everyone is happy- but if the film had any sense of logic/ cause and effect, the Rebellion is done. Stalin won. Kruschev will replace him and maybe after half a century there will be some sort of weakening of the regime and there might be some hope of reform.) | ||
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Sermokala
United States13938 Posts
On March 23 2019 22:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: You wrote all of that to basically lay out the most basic main character traits ever. The guy who does everything for his friends, is naive and in general wants to do good. That's like any shonen anime main character, something which is targeted at children. There is no depth there, like none at all. The decision you talk about here is in fact extremely similar to the one rose makes in tlj, an underdeveloped character everyone hates now (though hers was more immediate) In TLJ Luke actually gets more than that, he grew up and made a critical mistake which led to a new state of terror and suffering. His way of dealing with that was to go into exile in shame, another fault, he is disillusioned, almost cynical now until rey arrives and he sees the message of his sister. That gives him enough strength due to the memories of old to at least try again. At the end he somewhat redeems himself with an act of sacrifice and heroism, that's the luke of old again. As i said, Hamill's best performance on top of giving some edge to luke skywalker. Most interesting version of luke in the movie franchise easily. I think i am done arguing about this though, i don't wanna give this topic so much time, star wars isn't nearly good enough to justify it. Kinda sad that marvel and star wars get so much talk and all the good movies barely get any This is factualy an untrue argument. TLJ luke doesn't get strength from the message of his sister or the knowledge of his friends death. He continues his cycasim and reinforces his actions from this new news. He refuses to train ray in any way and treats the lightsaber he got from kenobi like a peice of garbage. Only after ray leaves and yoda comes back does he finaly change his mind to reconnect to the force and sacrifice himself and the hope his exile brought to buy time for a dozen people to escape on the falcon. | ||
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riotjune
United States3393 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 27 2019 04:22 Sermokala wrote: This is factualy an untrue argument. TLJ luke doesn't get strength from the message of his sister or the knowledge of his friends death. He continues his cycasim and reinforces his actions from this new news. He refuses to train ray in any way and treats the lightsaber he got from kenobi like a peice of garbage. Only after ray leaves and yoda comes back does he finaly change his mind to reconnect to the force and sacrifice himself and the hope his exile brought to buy time for a dozen people to escape on the falcon. You mean because Luke does not respond instantly to the new that it has no influence over his behavior at the end of the film? Because you didn’t see direct causation on screen, it didn’t happen. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13938 Posts
On March 27 2019 22:25 Plansix wrote: You mean because Luke does not respond instantly to the new that it has no influence over his behavior at the end of the film? Because you didn’t see direct causation on screen, it didn’t happen. We see the direct reaction of him to the new. We see the extensive elaboration of the influence of the new. We see the development of the news influence and how luke reacts to the new. None of it is positive until yoda comes along and burns the tree down. We see direct causation on the screen to what happenes. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Even if he still has a negative outlook on things in general, his interaction with rey pushes him slowly but surely to a more positive outlook again, where yoda's little motivational speech is just the last straw (and it is also placed there to basically tell the audience what the themes of the movie are), it also partly focuses on rey being the future. Saying nothing is positive is questionable, him not wanting to have anything to do with rey at first and then accepting her as his student is quite the big positive reaction if you ask me. Then he gets pushed by her into laying out his big mistake, again confronting this ghost of the past. He then sees her having the same idealistic pov he had with his father years and years ago. All of that changes his pov, even in the yoda scene that influence is shown, he says he wants to burn the tree down but cannot do it and reacts in shock when yoda does. Like cmon, it isn't rocket science really. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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ffswowsucks
Greece2294 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On March 28 2019 03:30 ffswowsucks wrote: I think this thread has derailed alot to star wars...maybe take the star wars arguments somewhere else? Just an idea. I agree which is why i didn't wanna reply again, sorry i failed you | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On March 28 2019 03:46 CosmicSpiral wrote: When the sun finally swallows Earth as it completes its transition into a red giant, the last radio transmissions will be about Rey is a nothingburger character. Actually, since every transmission attacking TLJ is followed by a transmission defending it (and vice versa), then it logically follows that the world will never end. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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Sermokala
United States13938 Posts
On March 28 2019 00:45 The_Red_Viper wrote: You are right that he doesn't just stop being this cynical guy when he sees the message, i phrased that badly. The message is the turning point still though, after seeing this he accepts rey as his student. Even if he still has a negative outlook on things in general, his interaction with rey pushes him slowly but surely to a more positive outlook again, where yoda's little motivational speech is just the last straw (and it is also placed there to basically tell the audience what the themes of the movie are), it also partly focuses on rey being the future. Saying nothing is positive is questionable, him not wanting to have anything to do with rey at first and then accepting her as his student is quite the big positive reaction if you ask me. Then he gets pushed by her into laying out his big mistake, again confronting this ghost of the past. He then sees her having the same idealistic pov he had with his father years and years ago. All of that changes his pov, even in the yoda scene that influence is shown, he says he wants to burn the tree down but cannot do it and reacts in shock when yoda does. Like cmon, it isn't rocket science really. Yeah but Luke says when he "accepts ray as his student" that all his lessons are going to be about why the jedi need to end and why he won't train her. This is still an extension of him turning away from the force and refusing to deal with his mistakes. His own teachers lost their war but they at least accepted luke when they saw him and trained him the best they could in the time they had. His interactions with Ray reinforce his previous attitudes as well when he decides the power within her is the same as kylo and that she was just going to go straight dark side. For your argument to be true there would have had to have been some buy-in from ray about the jedi being flawed and how they needed to end or at the least fundamentally change. Instead at the end shes treasuring the sacred texts and presumably thinks that they have value. Instead, ray leaves luke at the end defying him and wanting to show him that the jedi still have value and that hes wrong. Presumably from rays pov she has to belive that luke ended up agreeing with her and did his force power thing to help her save the resistance as that the jedi needed to be there for them. Luke ends up having no impact on rays view of the force or the jedi. The biggest problem with luke is that the movie doesn't just cut him down to be a bitter childish coward but that everything he does in the movie makes his place in the universe go south from there. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13938 Posts
On March 28 2019 07:55 IgnE wrote: i guess that settles the star wars v star trek debate. Clearly, the path forward is to get the guys behind south park to produce a rip off of star wars. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17260 Posts
On March 28 2019 12:05 Sermokala wrote: Clearly, the path forward is to get the guys behind south park to produce a rip off of star wars. What we need is Spaceballs 2! | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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