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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On June 10 2013 00:03 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 23:39 sc4k wrote:On June 09 2013 23:24 Thor.Rush wrote:
George RR Martin specifically made the character Sam to appear to be a worthless coward, when in fact he is not worthless or unintelligent. Believing that he is shows you have not understood the author's/creator's intention. I agree, and I'm really surprised if anyone truly doesn't notice Sam's virtues and that GRRM has something in store for him...he would have died in one episode otherwise. But it's a bit groan-inducingly cliché isn't it? 'I may be a coward, and appear worthless, but I'll show you!' is arguably one of the most overused tropes in pulp fantasy. Plus they just use too many scenes to get across the whole pathetic and cowardly aspect. True, but if he is going to become/do something awesome if it's not really really well established how much of a pussy he is then these later scenes would have less of an impact, no?
Yes, arguably. Although by being so heavy handed with this character exposition and hinting so obviously that he is going to come 'good', it kind of ruins the surprise.
But I don't want to be churlish, you have a point. If he came out of nowhere killing white walkers the impact would be little to none. And it would be really unbelievable.
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On June 10 2013 03:08 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 00:03 Reason wrote:On June 09 2013 23:39 sc4k wrote:On June 09 2013 23:24 Thor.Rush wrote:
George RR Martin specifically made the character Sam to appear to be a worthless coward, when in fact he is not worthless or unintelligent. Believing that he is shows you have not understood the author's/creator's intention. I agree, and I'm really surprised if anyone truly doesn't notice Sam's virtues and that GRRM has something in store for him...he would have died in one episode otherwise. But it's a bit groan-inducingly cliché isn't it? 'I may be a coward, and appear worthless, but I'll show you!' is arguably one of the most overused tropes in pulp fantasy. Plus they just use too many scenes to get across the whole pathetic and cowardly aspect. True, but if he is going to become/do something awesome if it's not really really well established how much of a pussy he is then these later scenes would have less of an impact, no? Yes, arguably. Although by being so heavy handed with this character exposition and hinting so obviously that he is going to come 'good', it kind of ruins the surprise. But I don't want to be churlish, you have a point. If he came out of nowhere killing white walkers the impact would be little to none. And it would be really unbelievable.
As far as character development goes, the series have shown some extremely cliche characters, while others are less so. I'd say Sam is one of the cliche characters every fantasy storyline has, it's been done so many times you already "know" what's going to happen. I might still be wrong but it sure seems like Sam will be some sort of hero in the end. Khaleesi's storyline is also pretty cliche, young, pretty, innocent girl gets some bad experiences and becomes a badass through X mechanism, and even while growing powerful the character retains much of his/her innocence, thus leans on some old mentor character to guide her. It's pretty typical.
I don't know why people are making such a fuss about Sam, he's a pretty typical character.
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On June 10 2013 03:20 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 03:08 sc4k wrote:On June 10 2013 00:03 Reason wrote:On June 09 2013 23:39 sc4k wrote:On June 09 2013 23:24 Thor.Rush wrote:
George RR Martin specifically made the character Sam to appear to be a worthless coward, when in fact he is not worthless or unintelligent. Believing that he is shows you have not understood the author's/creator's intention. I agree, and I'm really surprised if anyone truly doesn't notice Sam's virtues and that GRRM has something in store for him...he would have died in one episode otherwise. But it's a bit groan-inducingly cliché isn't it? 'I may be a coward, and appear worthless, but I'll show you!' is arguably one of the most overused tropes in pulp fantasy. Plus they just use too many scenes to get across the whole pathetic and cowardly aspect. True, but if he is going to become/do something awesome if it's not really really well established how much of a pussy he is then these later scenes would have less of an impact, no? Yes, arguably. Although by being so heavy handed with this character exposition and hinting so obviously that he is going to come 'good', it kind of ruins the surprise. But I don't want to be churlish, you have a point. If he came out of nowhere killing white walkers the impact would be little to none. And it would be really unbelievable. As far as character development goes, the series have shown some extremely cliche characters, while others are less so. I'd say Sam is one of the cliche characters every fantasy storyline has, it's been done so many times you already "know" what's going to happen. I might still be wrong but it sure seems like Sam will be some sort of hero in the end. Khaleesi's storyline is also pretty cliche, young, pretty, innocent girl gets some bad experiences and becomes a badass through X mechanism, and even while growing powerful the character retains much of his/her innocence, thus leans on some old mentor character to guide her. It's pretty typical. I don't know why people are making such a fuss about Sam, he's a pretty typical character.
Let's see if he ends up like Robb, being a stereotypical character and all ;-)
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On June 10 2013 03:58 Grovbolle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 03:20 mordk wrote:On June 10 2013 03:08 sc4k wrote:On June 10 2013 00:03 Reason wrote:On June 09 2013 23:39 sc4k wrote:On June 09 2013 23:24 Thor.Rush wrote:
George RR Martin specifically made the character Sam to appear to be a worthless coward, when in fact he is not worthless or unintelligent. Believing that he is shows you have not understood the author's/creator's intention. I agree, and I'm really surprised if anyone truly doesn't notice Sam's virtues and that GRRM has something in store for him...he would have died in one episode otherwise. But it's a bit groan-inducingly cliché isn't it? 'I may be a coward, and appear worthless, but I'll show you!' is arguably one of the most overused tropes in pulp fantasy. Plus they just use too many scenes to get across the whole pathetic and cowardly aspect. True, but if he is going to become/do something awesome if it's not really really well established how much of a pussy he is then these later scenes would have less of an impact, no? Yes, arguably. Although by being so heavy handed with this character exposition and hinting so obviously that he is going to come 'good', it kind of ruins the surprise. But I don't want to be churlish, you have a point. If he came out of nowhere killing white walkers the impact would be little to none. And it would be really unbelievable. As far as character development goes, the series have shown some extremely cliche characters, while others are less so. I'd say Sam is one of the cliche characters every fantasy storyline has, it's been done so many times you already "know" what's going to happen. I might still be wrong but it sure seems like Sam will be some sort of hero in the end. Khaleesi's storyline is also pretty cliche, young, pretty, innocent girl gets some bad experiences and becomes a badass through X mechanism, and even while growing powerful the character retains much of his/her innocence, thus leans on some old mentor character to guide her. It's pretty typical. I don't know why people are making such a fuss about Sam, he's a pretty typical character. Let's see if he ends up like Robb, being a stereotypical character and all ;-)
Or poor, dead Ned.
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On June 10 2013 04:03 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 03:58 Grovbolle wrote:On June 10 2013 03:20 mordk wrote:On June 10 2013 03:08 sc4k wrote:On June 10 2013 00:03 Reason wrote:On June 09 2013 23:39 sc4k wrote:On June 09 2013 23:24 Thor.Rush wrote:
George RR Martin specifically made the character Sam to appear to be a worthless coward, when in fact he is not worthless or unintelligent. Believing that he is shows you have not understood the author's/creator's intention. I agree, and I'm really surprised if anyone truly doesn't notice Sam's virtues and that GRRM has something in store for him...he would have died in one episode otherwise. But it's a bit groan-inducingly cliché isn't it? 'I may be a coward, and appear worthless, but I'll show you!' is arguably one of the most overused tropes in pulp fantasy. Plus they just use too many scenes to get across the whole pathetic and cowardly aspect. True, but if he is going to become/do something awesome if it's not really really well established how much of a pussy he is then these later scenes would have less of an impact, no? Yes, arguably. Although by being so heavy handed with this character exposition and hinting so obviously that he is going to come 'good', it kind of ruins the surprise. But I don't want to be churlish, you have a point. If he came out of nowhere killing white walkers the impact would be little to none. And it would be really unbelievable. As far as character development goes, the series have shown some extremely cliche characters, while others are less so. I'd say Sam is one of the cliche characters every fantasy storyline has, it's been done so many times you already "know" what's going to happen. I might still be wrong but it sure seems like Sam will be some sort of hero in the end. Khaleesi's storyline is also pretty cliche, young, pretty, innocent girl gets some bad experiences and becomes a badass through X mechanism, and even while growing powerful the character retains much of his/her innocence, thus leans on some old mentor character to guide her. It's pretty typical. I don't know why people are making such a fuss about Sam, he's a pretty typical character. Let's see if he ends up like Robb, being a stereotypical character and all ;-) Or poor, dead Ned.
Or poor "Insert Stark name"
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On June 10 2013 04:04 Hitch-22 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 04:03 Lord Tolkien wrote:On June 10 2013 03:58 Grovbolle wrote:On June 10 2013 03:20 mordk wrote:On June 10 2013 03:08 sc4k wrote:On June 10 2013 00:03 Reason wrote:On June 09 2013 23:39 sc4k wrote:On June 09 2013 23:24 Thor.Rush wrote:
George RR Martin specifically made the character Sam to appear to be a worthless coward, when in fact he is not worthless or unintelligent. Believing that he is shows you have not understood the author's/creator's intention. I agree, and I'm really surprised if anyone truly doesn't notice Sam's virtues and that GRRM has something in store for him...he would have died in one episode otherwise. But it's a bit groan-inducingly cliché isn't it? 'I may be a coward, and appear worthless, but I'll show you!' is arguably one of the most overused tropes in pulp fantasy. Plus they just use too many scenes to get across the whole pathetic and cowardly aspect. True, but if he is going to become/do something awesome if it's not really really well established how much of a pussy he is then these later scenes would have less of an impact, no? Yes, arguably. Although by being so heavy handed with this character exposition and hinting so obviously that he is going to come 'good', it kind of ruins the surprise. But I don't want to be churlish, you have a point. If he came out of nowhere killing white walkers the impact would be little to none. And it would be really unbelievable. As far as character development goes, the series have shown some extremely cliche characters, while others are less so. I'd say Sam is one of the cliche characters every fantasy storyline has, it's been done so many times you already "know" what's going to happen. I might still be wrong but it sure seems like Sam will be some sort of hero in the end. Khaleesi's storyline is also pretty cliche, young, pretty, innocent girl gets some bad experiences and becomes a badass through X mechanism, and even while growing powerful the character retains much of his/her innocence, thus leans on some old mentor character to guide her. It's pretty typical. I don't know why people are making such a fuss about Sam, he's a pretty typical character. Let's see if he ends up like Robb, being a stereotypical character and all ;-) Or poor, dead Ned. Or poor "Insert Stark name"
Poor Grey Wind, poor Lady!
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On June 10 2013 04:08 Zandar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 04:04 Hitch-22 wrote:On June 10 2013 04:03 Lord Tolkien wrote:On June 10 2013 03:58 Grovbolle wrote:On June 10 2013 03:20 mordk wrote:On June 10 2013 03:08 sc4k wrote:On June 10 2013 00:03 Reason wrote:On June 09 2013 23:39 sc4k wrote:On June 09 2013 23:24 Thor.Rush wrote:
George RR Martin specifically made the character Sam to appear to be a worthless coward, when in fact he is not worthless or unintelligent. Believing that he is shows you have not understood the author's/creator's intention. I agree, and I'm really surprised if anyone truly doesn't notice Sam's virtues and that GRRM has something in store for him...he would have died in one episode otherwise. But it's a bit groan-inducingly cliché isn't it? 'I may be a coward, and appear worthless, but I'll show you!' is arguably one of the most overused tropes in pulp fantasy. Plus they just use too many scenes to get across the whole pathetic and cowardly aspect. True, but if he is going to become/do something awesome if it's not really really well established how much of a pussy he is then these later scenes would have less of an impact, no? Yes, arguably. Although by being so heavy handed with this character exposition and hinting so obviously that he is going to come 'good', it kind of ruins the surprise. But I don't want to be churlish, you have a point. If he came out of nowhere killing white walkers the impact would be little to none. And it would be really unbelievable. As far as character development goes, the series have shown some extremely cliche characters, while others are less so. I'd say Sam is one of the cliche characters every fantasy storyline has, it's been done so many times you already "know" what's going to happen. I might still be wrong but it sure seems like Sam will be some sort of hero in the end. Khaleesi's storyline is also pretty cliche, young, pretty, innocent girl gets some bad experiences and becomes a badass through X mechanism, and even while growing powerful the character retains much of his/her innocence, thus leans on some old mentor character to guide her. It's pretty typical. I don't know why people are making such a fuss about Sam, he's a pretty typical character. Let's see if he ends up like Robb, being a stereotypical character and all ;-) Or poor, dead Ned. Or poor "Insert Stark name" Poor Grey Wind, poor Lady!
Poor Benjin
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anybody excited for the season finale?
seems a bit anticlimactic after the red wedding
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On June 10 2013 04:30 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
anybody excited for the season finale?
seems a bit anticlimactic after the red wedding
Shit's gonna go down. I'm very excited.
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On June 10 2013 04:32 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 04:30 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
anybody excited for the season finale?
seems a bit anticlimactic after the red wedding Shit's gonna go down. I'm very excited.
Ugh, thanks for the spoiler.. I didn't know shit was going to go down :/
+ Show Spoiler +
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On June 10 2013 04:32 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 04:30 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
anybody excited for the season finale?
seems a bit anticlimactic after the red wedding Shit's gonna go down. I'm very excited.
cant wait for the cliffhangers!
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United States43968 Posts
If Benjen shows up and abandons his watch I think he comes before Tyrion in the succession.
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On June 10 2013 04:42 KwarK wrote:
If Benjen shows up and abandons his watch I think he comes before Tyrion in the succession.
Don't you get your head chopped off if you abandon watch though? Would be interesting because he would technically be a king and pardon himself from his own vows maybe?
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On June 10 2013 04:30 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
anybody excited for the season finale?
seems a bit anticlimactic after the red wedding
Ned's beheading
Blackwater
Red Wedding
Seems episode 9 is always the big one of the season
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On June 10 2013 04:34 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 04:32 Djzapz wrote:On June 10 2013 04:30 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
anybody excited for the season finale?
seems a bit anticlimactic after the red wedding Shit's gonna go down. I'm very excited. Ugh, thanks for the spoiler.. I didn't know shit was going to go down :/ + Show Spoiler +
Nothing will happen the next episode. It'll be 50 minutes of a black screen and the "Rains of Castamere" to drive the last episode home.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On June 10 2013 02:40 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
i guess the storyline everyone expects from sam is that he goes from that useless guy that never achieved anything to that guy that finds a niche where he is a valuable asset.
Knowing that you need dragonglass to kill the white walkers is already quite useful.
but then.. its GRRM.. he might build that storyline up just to kill sam off the show just before he could achieve something meaningful. who knows.
I can imagine it being something like "Hey guys, use dragonglARHGHGHGH" *BOOM ARROW TO THE HEAD*
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It's a conundrum.
I don't believe Kings or Lords are obligated to chop deserters' heads off in any way. I believe rulers in Winterfell (ie Ned) have traditionally punished deserters due to their close ties with the Night's Watch. I can't see the Watch enjoying the same kind of commitment by the southern houses though.
On the other hand, the vows are to the Night's Watch, not to the realm. So not even a King should be able to pardon himself.
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On June 10 2013 04:42 KwarK wrote:
If Benjen shows up and abandons his watch I think he comes before Tyrion in the succession.
If you could un-forsake all lands and titles by giving up a vow, then Tywin's threat to put Loras in the Kingsguard would have no weight (and if a ruler could allow it, then the Tyrells having the Queen would make them immune to the threat). Even if a ruler could supersede it, it'd make you known as an oathbreaker, which people look down on (see: Jaime).
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On June 10 2013 04:52 Talin wrote:
It's a conundrum.
I don't believe Kings or Lords are obligated to chop deserters' heads off in any way. I believe rulers in Winterfell (ie Ned) have traditionally punished deserters due to their close ties with the Night's Watch. I can't see the Watch enjoying the same kind of commitment by the southern houses though.
On the other hand, the vows are to the Night's Watch, not to the realm. So not even a King should be able to pardon himself.
The penalty for desertion of the Night's Watch is death. Ned believed that those who gave the sentence should swing the sword. Since he was Warden of the North, any deserters were his responsibility.
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On June 10 2013 04:59 Jophess wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 04:52 Talin wrote:
It's a conundrum.
I don't believe Kings or Lords are obligated to chop deserters' heads off in any way. I believe rulers in Winterfell (ie Ned) have traditionally punished deserters due to their close ties with the Night's Watch. I can't see the Watch enjoying the same kind of commitment by the southern houses though.
On the other hand, the vows are to the Night's Watch, not to the realm. So not even a King should be able to pardon himself. The penalty for desertion of the Night's Watch is death. Ned believed that those who gave the sentence should swing the sword. Since he was Warden of the North, any deserters were his responsibility.
Yeah there's no "maybe it's off with the head" it IS off with the head.
This is why Cersei, before Joffrey took Ned's head off, wanted him to go to the wall where he had no claim to winterfell etc.
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EPT
