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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
There is no good and evil characters in GoT, stop this useless debate.
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On May 15 2013 06:04 unkkz wrote:
There is no good and evil characters in GoT, stop this useless debate.
Yes, although GRRM did state that there is one true evil character in the show that he made evil just to have someone evil. I think he meant Joffrey, but it could be the mountain. The rest are just people doing evil or good actions for what they believe are good reasons.
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On May 15 2013 05:46 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 05:21 Greenei wrote:On May 15 2013 04:47 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 15 2013 04:44 Greenei wrote:On May 15 2013 03:34 biology]major wrote:On May 15 2013 03:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 15 2013 02:13 Dfgj wrote:On May 15 2013 02:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I liked Jaime better when he was fucking his sister and killing everybody around. He was an awesome amoral character. No he is on that dumb annoying cliché redeption path. I hate redemptions. I want my awesome vilains to keep being awesome and evil. Thinking he was definitively a villain and evil was the mistake on your part. Fortunately, there's no lack of other evil characters to amuse us all. Someone throwing a kid thourgh a window, even to protect himself and the one he loves, is evil. In a show and in reality. Thing is, he was much better than other evil characters, because he was also light hearted and utterly cool, while Joffrey is a maniac and people like littlefinger don't have any of his charisma. Oh well, I hope they don't fuck up the "good" Jamie. Saving 4 lives for the price of 1 is evil? take this evil/good argument out of this thread pls, this isn't grade school Throwing a child out of a window is the epidome of being good of corse. Who could ever find a fault in that? Did he have to fuck his sister in Winterfell? NO! They took the risk on their own. I'm disgusted by the suggestion, that this was not an evil thing to do. As I said earlier in the thread, if he didnt kill Bran what would the repercussions be? He, his sister, and their childrens lives would be forfeit. Tywin would attempt to defend them, and probably drag another house into the war as well, resulting in the deaths of all the members of the Lannister family, and tens of thousands of bannermen, as well as thousands more of peasents. It would of been insane [and evil] not to push Bran out the window. This assumes a whole lot: 1. Bran talks about what happened, 2. People believe him, 3. Tywin starts a war over it... And don't even try to tell me he thought about "the realm" or whatever when he pushed him down. He thought about himself and Cersei and maybe his children. I don't even think that when they would've just confessed, that the children would have to die, because they were at Winterfell at that time and Ned probably wouldn't have allowed it. Or try to flee with the children and go to exile. Or try to threaten Bran. This is what a character would have done who isn't completely egoistic. And even if it is true what you say. Then the mere act of fucking the kings wife is a completely immoral action in and of itself if your discovery results in the death of thousands of people. No matter how you turn it, Jaime acted evil. The assumptions I made are rather likely to occur. You cant whatsoever bet on an eight year old [or w/e] not telling someone that he saw two of the most famous people in the fucking world fuck eachother, especially when its incest and treason. It will happen. Even if people dont believe him right off the bat, it adds ridiculous credence to existing suspicions, which very likely will result in greater investigation. Tywin would start a war over the death of his children and grand children, thats axiomatic. And ned would have no say in the Childrens death, hes warden of the north, Robert is the king. He'd want them dead, and they would die. That simple. Also, explain to me how Cersei and Jaime magically escape Roberts grasp? There in winterfell, right beside him and his men. Even if the shit hit the fan later, they are with Roberts entourage, or in his city-- fuck, they're in his kingdoms, where half the people would want them dead on a good day. And no, its not immoral to fuck someone who you love and are attracted to, merely because its risky. Its irresponsible and short sighted, not evil. edit: And so what if he wasnt thinking of the realm [though its entirely plausible that he was] ? It would still be immoral not to defend your children, your sister and your lover. That was the only plausible means of defending them. Bribing or threatening Bran is trite naive nonsense.
You are just assuming so fucking much... You can basically call everything moral if you make up some stuff that happens when someone doesn't do something. Other people in this thread already said why your assumptions are bad.
You are the one who claimes, that the discovery of them having sex leads to thousands of deaths. Under theses circumstances it is of corse immoral and egoistic to risk that just because you want to fuck.
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On May 15 2013 06:14 Greenei wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 05:46 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 15 2013 05:21 Greenei wrote:On May 15 2013 04:47 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 15 2013 04:44 Greenei wrote:On May 15 2013 03:34 biology]major wrote:On May 15 2013 03:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 15 2013 02:13 Dfgj wrote:On May 15 2013 02:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I liked Jaime better when he was fucking his sister and killing everybody around. He was an awesome amoral character. No he is on that dumb annoying cliché redeption path. I hate redemptions. I want my awesome vilains to keep being awesome and evil. Thinking he was definitively a villain and evil was the mistake on your part. Fortunately, there's no lack of other evil characters to amuse us all. Someone throwing a kid thourgh a window, even to protect himself and the one he loves, is evil. In a show and in reality. Thing is, he was much better than other evil characters, because he was also light hearted and utterly cool, while Joffrey is a maniac and people like littlefinger don't have any of his charisma. Oh well, I hope they don't fuck up the "good" Jamie. Saving 4 lives for the price of 1 is evil? take this evil/good argument out of this thread pls, this isn't grade school Throwing a child out of a window is the epidome of being good of corse. Who could ever find a fault in that? Did he have to fuck his sister in Winterfell? NO! They took the risk on their own. I'm disgusted by the suggestion, that this was not an evil thing to do. As I said earlier in the thread, if he didnt kill Bran what would the repercussions be? He, his sister, and their childrens lives would be forfeit. Tywin would attempt to defend them, and probably drag another house into the war as well, resulting in the deaths of all the members of the Lannister family, and tens of thousands of bannermen, as well as thousands more of peasents. It would of been insane [and evil] not to push Bran out the window. This assumes a whole lot: 1. Bran talks about what happened, 2. People believe him, 3. Tywin starts a war over it... And don't even try to tell me he thought about "the realm" or whatever when he pushed him down. He thought about himself and Cersei and maybe his children. I don't even think that when they would've just confessed, that the children would have to die, because they were at Winterfell at that time and Ned probably wouldn't have allowed it. Or try to flee with the children and go to exile. Or try to threaten Bran. This is what a character would have done who isn't completely egoistic. And even if it is true what you say. Then the mere act of fucking the kings wife is a completely immoral action in and of itself if your discovery results in the death of thousands of people. No matter how you turn it, Jaime acted evil. The assumptions I made are rather likely to occur. You cant whatsoever bet on an eight year old [or w/e] not telling someone that he saw two of the most famous people in the fucking world fuck eachother, especially when its incest and treason. It will happen. Even if people dont believe him right off the bat, it adds ridiculous credence to existing suspicions, which very likely will result in greater investigation. Tywin would start a war over the death of his children and grand children, thats axiomatic. And ned would have no say in the Childrens death, hes warden of the north, Robert is the king. He'd want them dead, and they would die. That simple. Also, explain to me how Cersei and Jaime magically escape Roberts grasp? There in winterfell, right beside him and his men. Even if the shit hit the fan later, they are with Roberts entourage, or in his city-- fuck, they're in his kingdoms, where half the people would want them dead on a good day. And no, its not immoral to fuck someone who you love and are attracted to, merely because its risky. Its irresponsible and short sighted, not evil. edit: And so what if he wasnt thinking of the realm [though its entirely plausible that he was] ? It would still be immoral not to defend your children, your sister and your lover. That was the only plausible means of defending them. Bribing or threatening Bran is trite naive nonsense. You are just assuming so fucking much... You can basically call everything moral if you make up some stuff that happens when someone doesn't do something. Other people in this thread already said why your assumptions are bad. You are the one who claimes, that the discovery of them having sex leads to thousands of deaths. Under theses circumstances it is of corse immoral and egoistic to risk that just because you want to fuck. Except none of it is made up nor extreme to the circumstances. Recall, that Ned was certain Robert would kill Cersei and her children if merely presented with the history of his families hair colour, for crying out loud.
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Shit. Only 3 more episodes 
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Anyone feel this season is kind of dragging? It just seems really slow compared to past seasons. It's still very very good, but I don't like it as much as season 1 and 2.
Three more episodes and it doesn't feel like too much crazy can happen in just three episodes, but I'm probably wrong. We shall see!
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On May 15 2013 06:29 Deadlyhazard wrote:
Anyone feel this season is kind of dragging? It just seems really slow compared to past seasons. It's still very very good, but I don't like it as much as season 1 and 2.
Three more episodes and it doesn't feel like too much crazy can happen in just three episodes, but I'm probably wrong. We shall see!
Maybe. I don't really recall the 1st and 2nd season all that well haha. I love how shitty my memory is with these things, can't wait to rewatch it in a year or so.
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On May 15 2013 06:18 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 06:14 Greenei wrote:On May 15 2013 05:46 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 15 2013 05:21 Greenei wrote:On May 15 2013 04:47 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 15 2013 04:44 Greenei wrote:On May 15 2013 03:34 biology]major wrote:On May 15 2013 03:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 15 2013 02:13 Dfgj wrote:On May 15 2013 02:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I liked Jaime better when he was fucking his sister and killing everybody around. He was an awesome amoral character. No he is on that dumb annoying cliché redeption path. I hate redemptions. I want my awesome vilains to keep being awesome and evil. Thinking he was definitively a villain and evil was the mistake on your part. Fortunately, there's no lack of other evil characters to amuse us all. Someone throwing a kid thourgh a window, even to protect himself and the one he loves, is evil. In a show and in reality. Thing is, he was much better than other evil characters, because he was also light hearted and utterly cool, while Joffrey is a maniac and people like littlefinger don't have any of his charisma. Oh well, I hope they don't fuck up the "good" Jamie. Saving 4 lives for the price of 1 is evil? take this evil/good argument out of this thread pls, this isn't grade school Throwing a child out of a window is the epidome of being good of corse. Who could ever find a fault in that? Did he have to fuck his sister in Winterfell? NO! They took the risk on their own. I'm disgusted by the suggestion, that this was not an evil thing to do. As I said earlier in the thread, if he didnt kill Bran what would the repercussions be? He, his sister, and their childrens lives would be forfeit. Tywin would attempt to defend them, and probably drag another house into the war as well, resulting in the deaths of all the members of the Lannister family, and tens of thousands of bannermen, as well as thousands more of peasents. It would of been insane [and evil] not to push Bran out the window. This assumes a whole lot: 1. Bran talks about what happened, 2. People believe him, 3. Tywin starts a war over it... And don't even try to tell me he thought about "the realm" or whatever when he pushed him down. He thought about himself and Cersei and maybe his children. I don't even think that when they would've just confessed, that the children would have to die, because they were at Winterfell at that time and Ned probably wouldn't have allowed it. Or try to flee with the children and go to exile. Or try to threaten Bran. This is what a character would have done who isn't completely egoistic. And even if it is true what you say. Then the mere act of fucking the kings wife is a completely immoral action in and of itself if your discovery results in the death of thousands of people. No matter how you turn it, Jaime acted evil. The assumptions I made are rather likely to occur. You cant whatsoever bet on an eight year old [or w/e] not telling someone that he saw two of the most famous people in the fucking world fuck eachother, especially when its incest and treason. It will happen. Even if people dont believe him right off the bat, it adds ridiculous credence to existing suspicions, which very likely will result in greater investigation. Tywin would start a war over the death of his children and grand children, thats axiomatic. And ned would have no say in the Childrens death, hes warden of the north, Robert is the king. He'd want them dead, and they would die. That simple. Also, explain to me how Cersei and Jaime magically escape Roberts grasp? There in winterfell, right beside him and his men. Even if the shit hit the fan later, they are with Roberts entourage, or in his city-- fuck, they're in his kingdoms, where half the people would want them dead on a good day. And no, its not immoral to fuck someone who you love and are attracted to, merely because its risky. Its irresponsible and short sighted, not evil. edit: And so what if he wasnt thinking of the realm [though its entirely plausible that he was] ? It would still be immoral not to defend your children, your sister and your lover. That was the only plausible means of defending them. Bribing or threatening Bran is trite naive nonsense. You are just assuming so fucking much... You can basically call everything moral if you make up some stuff that happens when someone doesn't do something. Other people in this thread already said why your assumptions are bad. You are the one who claimes, that the discovery of them having sex leads to thousands of deaths. Under theses circumstances it is of corse immoral and egoistic to risk that just because you want to fuck. Except none of it is made up nor extreme to the circumstances. Recall, that Ned was certain Robert would kill Cersei and her children if merely presented with the history of his families hair colour, for crying out loud.
It's the testimony of a fucking child. And it's not clear that he would have even talked. And even if they could still claim that Jaime raped Cersei or something like that. Then he dies and Cersei lives. But no he chose to refuse any responsibility and tried to murder Bran. Your scenario is completely made up and had no part in his decision. He acted selfishly with no regard for anyone else besides him and Cersei.
And even if everything you said was true killing an innocent bystander is still immoral. Even if the alternative was even more immoral doesn't make his choice any more moral, because he put himself in that dilemma.
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On May 15 2013 06:29 Deadlyhazard wrote:
Anyone feel this season is kind of dragging? It just seems really slow compared to past seasons. It's still very very good, but I don't like it as much as season 1 and 2.
Three more episodes and it doesn't feel like too much crazy can happen in just three episodes, but I'm probably wrong. We shall see!
Same here, I enjoyed seasons 1 and 2 a lot more than season 3.
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On May 15 2013 06:31 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 06:29 Deadlyhazard wrote:
Anyone feel this season is kind of dragging? It just seems really slow compared to past seasons. It's still very very good, but I don't like it as much as season 1 and 2.
Three more episodes and it doesn't feel like too much crazy can happen in just three episodes, but I'm probably wrong. We shall see! Maybe. I don't really recall the 1st and 2nd season all that well haha. I love how shitty my memory is with these things, can't wait to rewatch it in a year or so.
Trust me... The other seasons didn't rush through anything either... The last few episodes of season 2 were pretty actionpacked, but need I remind you of an entire season of "WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS?"
Actually, I think it's quite the contrary... A ton of stuff is happening... Character development, action, story progress etc etc... I'd love to get some more Arya, but I guess that's a personal preference
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Keeps getting better and better in my opinion. Three more weeks?
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On May 15 2013 06:29 Deadlyhazard wrote:
Anyone feel this season is kind of dragging? It just seems really slow compared to past seasons. It's still very very good, but I don't like it as much as season 1 and 2.
Three more episodes and it doesn't feel like too much crazy can happen in just three episodes, but I'm probably wrong. We shall see!
Yeah a lot of people feeling this way. After season 1 and 2 I was hoping 3 to be at least just as good, but it's not. Still good, but not as good as it was.
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On May 15 2013 06:04 unkkz wrote:
There is no good and evil characters in GoT, stop this useless debate.
The show begs moral questions. Talking about them is engaging with the show.
Additionally, no one is arguing in favor of regarding characters in a black and white way. But just throwing up your hands and saying "shades of grey!" is not helpful. A large part of what's interesting in this show is how we could come to root for someone as obviously neck-deep in crimes as Jaime Lannister. This is what is accurate to the real world about it.
I mean, did anyone watch that final scene and not have a little swell of Lannister pride in them, no matter how much we may be rooting against them?
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On May 15 2013 06:13 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 06:04 unkkz wrote:
There is no good and evil characters in GoT, stop this useless debate. Yes, although GRRM did state that there is one true evil character in the show that he made evil just to have someone evil. I think he meant Joffrey, but it could be the mountain. The rest are just people doing evil or good actions for what they believe are good reasons.
I'm curious as to why it can't be the dude who is torchering Theon? Is it because he believes he has good reason (he enjoys it, or maybe perceives Theon as evil or whatever?)
Just curious.
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On May 15 2013 03:34 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 03:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 15 2013 02:13 Dfgj wrote:On May 15 2013 02:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I liked Jaime better when he was fucking his sister and killing everybody around. He was an awesome amoral character. No he is on that dumb annoying cliché redeption path. I hate redemptions. I want my awesome vilains to keep being awesome and evil. Thinking he was definitively a villain and evil was the mistake on your part. Fortunately, there's no lack of other evil characters to amuse us all. Someone throwing a kid thourgh a window, even to protect himself and the one he loves, is evil. In a show and in reality. Thing is, he was much better than other evil characters, because he was also light hearted and utterly cool, while Joffrey is a maniac and people like littlefinger don't have any of his charisma. Oh well, I hope they don't fuck up the "good" Jamie. Saving 4 lives for the price of 1 is evil? take this evil/good argument out of this thread pls, this isn't grade school
So, if a guy comes to you on the street, knocks you out, kills you, takes your healthy organs and gives them to 5 people waiting for organ transplants in a nearby hospital you will not have any problems with that? That person is not evil?
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On May 15 2013 07:23 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 06:13 Excludos wrote:On May 15 2013 06:04 unkkz wrote:
There is no good and evil characters in GoT, stop this useless debate. Yes, although GRRM did state that there is one true evil character in the show that he made evil just to have someone evil. I think he meant Joffrey, but it could be the mountain. The rest are just people doing evil or good actions for what they believe are good reasons. I'm curious as to why it can't be the dude who is torchering Theon? Is it because he believes he has good reason (he enjoys it, or maybe perceives Theon as evil or whatever?) Just curious.
Barry (save me barry!), Joff, and Cat's sister/nephew all seem legitimately insane. As in sick, not necessarily evil. We don't know much about the mountain other than that he has a temper and likes to burn villages.
Tywin is pretty bad, but there is a logic to what he does. Could be Littlefinger, but I hope not. Still, he has more of a desire to "watch the world burn" than anyone else... especially if he can be king of the ashes. Maybe Jon Snow is in league with the white walkers.
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On May 15 2013 06:20 Recognizable wrote:Shit. Only 3 more episodes
And then a whole year without GoT.
Gonna start reading the books tho and Dexter should be coming soonish.
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where are the wildlings going after passing the wall? I don.t get it.
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On May 15 2013 07:37 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 07:23 TheDougler wrote:On May 15 2013 06:13 Excludos wrote:On May 15 2013 06:04 unkkz wrote:
There is no good and evil characters in GoT, stop this useless debate. Yes, although GRRM did state that there is one true evil character in the show that he made evil just to have someone evil. I think he meant Joffrey, but it could be the mountain. The rest are just people doing evil or good actions for what they believe are good reasons. I'm curious as to why it can't be the dude who is torchering Theon? Is it because he believes he has good reason (he enjoys it, or maybe perceives Theon as evil or whatever?) Just curious. Barry (save me barry!), Joff, and Cat's sister/nephew all seem legitimately insane. As in sick, not necessarily evil. We don't know much about the mountain other than that he has a temper and likes to burn villages. Tywin is pretty bad, but there is a logic to what he does. Could be Littlefinger, but I hope not. Still, he has more of a desire to "watch the world burn" than anyone else... especially if he can be king of the ashes. Maybe Jon Snow is in league with the white walkers.
I like this answer. I think littlefinger is the closest to what id consider evil.
Joffrey is a teenager for fucks sake. You take a random spoiled teenager with very little by the way of good parenting, and make him into a king, right in the midst of a civil war (the previous war having ended in the sack of the capital and slaughtering of the whole royal family) ... surround him with councillors like cersei and littlefinger and I guarantee some distasteful things will start to go down.
The mountain is certainly dreadful by our modern standards, but at the end of the day he is a soldier following orders. He's exactly the kind of monster that arises under a tywin lannisters coldly, brutally efficient rule, during a particularly violent era, in a fuedal system that teaches nobles to give little regard for the small folk.
Littlefinger, though, seems like a more or less self made man. He could've been anything, he chose to be what he is.
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On May 15 2013 07:57 FireS wrote:
where are the wildlings going after passing the wall? I don.t get it.
They're going to attack castle black from the south
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EPT
