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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On July 23 2012 21:15 Euronyme wrote:
God this is hard to read when you've read the books :/
One thing though, to the guys saying Arya should be on the top smart list.. Come on, she could choose to kill literally anyone through Jaqen. She could've killed Cercei, Joffrey and Tywin and put house Lannister in a succession crisis.
Instead she picked random guards and a torturer. Not exactly a towering intellect.
She's just a child you might say. Well children are rarely the smartest people in the world.
From the series alone, I'd put
Littlefinger
Varys
Tywin as top smarts in that order.
In stupidity I'd rank:
Joffrey (insane child of incest)
Ned (completely oblivious of the game of thrones)
Robb (starting a war with terrible odds and no diplomacy with the other great houses wtf?)
I wouldn't say Robb is at the top of the stupid list, but I'd definitely agree that Ned is way up there. It wasn't that he was oblivious to the Game; he knew the Game was there and ignored it anyway.
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On July 24 2012 03:11 Rayeth wrote:
I'm pretty sure the ultimate show of Robb's stupidity is that he allowed himself to take his eyes off the prize (the war and becoming the King in the North) and spend his time courting (and then marrying) some foreign chick despite being pledged to a Frey.
Dude clearly did not have enough mental fortitude to do what was necessary. I highly doubt someone like Tywin or Tyrion would have been so distracted in his place.
This comparison really makes me facepalm. There are plenty of examples from the books to outline how Tywin and Tyrion let petty issues get in the way of reasonable thinking which I won't spoil. Still, going by the series, it's silly to say Robb can't control his cock but Tyrion can. His confidants are all paid and he's made an enemy out of his family members, all decisions made of his own will. At least Robb is facing issues out of his control as outlined by dukethegold's post.
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On July 24 2012 03:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 21:15 Euronyme wrote:
God this is hard to read when you've read the books :/
One thing though, to the guys saying Arya should be on the top smart list.. Come on, she could choose to kill literally anyone through Jaqen. She could've killed Cercei, Joffrey and Tywin and put house Lannister in a succession crisis.
Instead she picked random guards and a torturer. Not exactly a towering intellect.
She's just a child you might say. Well children are rarely the smartest people in the world.
From the series alone, I'd put
Littlefinger
Varys
Tywin as top smarts in that order.
In stupidity I'd rank:
Joffrey (insane child of incest)
Ned (completely oblivious of the game of thrones)
Robb (starting a war with terrible odds and no diplomacy with the other great houses wtf?) I wouldn't say Robb is at the top of the stupid list, but I'd definitely agree that Ned is way up there. It wasn't that he was oblivious to the Game; he knew the Game was there and ignored it anyway.
But he ignored it more out of his feeling for honour, not stupidity.
And he had Robert on his side when he told Cersei to flee. He could not know that Robert would be killed by some boar, especially in the presence of guards like Barristan Selmy.
Had Robert survived that hunting trip things might have turned out alright for Ned.
Likewise Cersei does not belong among the most clever, just because she is ruthless. She made a ton of errors of judgement.
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I'm reading the third book right now, almost finished it and it's fuckin amazing, omg.
I think overall the TV show is quite good, except some weird things like during the Blackwater battle, in the TV show Stannis fought and got caught but somehow he's released and back in Dragonstone ? What the fuck.
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On July 28 2012 22:01 Lylat wrote:
I'm reading the third book right now, almost finished it and it's fuckin amazing, omg.
I think overall the TV show is quite good, except some weird things like during the Blackwater battle, in the TV show Stannis fought and got caught but somehow he's released and back in Dragonstone ? What the fuck.
He was dragged back by his own men or something after it was clear that they were losing the battle. I agree though, if you weren't completely off with what happened then it would have been a real what the fuck-moment.
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On July 28 2012 22:01 Lylat wrote:
I'm reading the third book right now, almost finished it and it's fuckin amazing, omg.
I think overall the TV show is quite good, except some weird things like during the Blackwater battle, in the TV show Stannis fought and got caught but somehow he's released and back in Dragonstone ? What the fuck.
He was dragged off by his own men, not captured and yeah season three will be amazing.
Edit: Damn, beaten to it.
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On July 24 2012 05:06 ssxsilver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 03:11 Rayeth wrote:
I'm pretty sure the ultimate show of Robb's stupidity is that he allowed himself to take his eyes off the prize (the war and becoming the King in the North) and spend his time courting (and then marrying) some foreign chick despite being pledged to a Frey.
Dude clearly did not have enough mental fortitude to do what was necessary. I highly doubt someone like Tywin or Tyrion would have been so distracted in his place.
This comparison really makes me facepalm. There are plenty of examples from the books to outline how Tywin and Tyrion let petty issues get in the way of reasonable thinking which I won't spoil. Still, going by the series, it's silly to say Robb can't control his cock but Tyrion can. His confidants are all paid and he's made an enemy out of his family members, all decisions made of his own will. At least Robb is facing issues out of his control as outlined by dukethegold's post.
The difference is, Tyrion is smart enough to not marry Shae and to keep her hidden. He does also not rely on a marriage alliance, and then breaks it. Tyrion's family members were already antagonistic to him, and nobody would take him seriously if it wasn't for his money, so how would he get friends withoug buying them? On the other hand, Robb had the true loyalty of very many people at the outset. Robb had great momentum at the beginning of season 2, but lost much of it. Tyrion had little momentum, but then managed to build it up until he lost it again. I agree that both of them lost momentum mostly due to circumstances out of their control though. If Renly had lived, Robb would be in great shape almost regardless, and it is hard to imagine how he could have predicted that Renly would die.
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Hard to make a stupidity list without Catelyn near the top. She pretty much single-handedly started the whole war, and came up with the bright idea of going "lol Jaime i know youre probably the second-best Lannister commander and one of the best cards we have, but im gonna release you anyways."
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On July 28 2012 22:01 Lylat wrote:
I'm reading the third book right now, almost finished it and it's fuckin amazing, omg.
I think overall the TV show is quite good, except some weird things like during the Blackwater battle, in the TV show Stannis fought and got caught but somehow he's released and back in Dragonstone ? What the fuck.
Stannis was pulled out of the battle by his men, and yes, the character that is Stannis is the show is different than the character that is Stannis in the books.
On July 28 2012 22:47 Escavalier wrote:
Hard to make a stupidity list without Catelyn near the top. She pretty much single-handedly started the whole war, and came up with the bright idea of going "lol Jaime i know youre probably the second-best Lannister commander and one of the best cards we have, but im gonna release you anyways."
Catelyn did NOT start the war. Don't say that. The war ultimately started as a result of a Baratheon succession crisis, and escalated when Ned was arrested for being a traitor. Catelyn arresting Tyrion simply caused Tywin to raise his banners against the River Lands as Lord Tywin could not take a hit to his reputation as having his son arrested by a Tully. Further, it wasn't entirely Catelyn's fault for arresting Tyrion, as Little Finger was the one who claimed that the dagger was Tyrions, when its made pretty clear that its not Tyrions. Little Finger could have named the dagger anyone's dagger, but he chose Tyrion, likely to inflame Stark-Tully-Lannister relations for reasons unknown.
But Catelyn releaseing Jaime was possibly the stupidest thing possible.
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On July 19 2012 21:48 Probasaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 21:44 summerloud wrote:first season spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
characters that already died are excluded, because obviously we all know that kahl drogo was the best fighter ever in the history of the universe and his untimely demise along with his son, the stallion who would have mounted the world, led to the disappointing end of season one
Would you had preferred she spent the next however many seasons with a suckling at her breast and letting drogo do all the cool shit?? I wouldnt.
Yeah seasons of her shouting all of her titles and talking about what shes gonna do when her dragons are grown will be much better then having Drogo.
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Cersei and Jaime started the war. Catelyn and Ned just reacted to their actions, though not in the smartest possible way.
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On July 29 2012 00:52 Juggernaut477 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 21:48 Probasaur wrote:On July 19 2012 21:44 summerloud wrote:first season spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
characters that already died are excluded, because obviously we all know that kahl drogo was the best fighter ever in the history of the universe and his untimely demise along with his son, the stallion who would have mounted the world, led to the disappointing end of season one
Would you had preferred she spent the next however many seasons with a suckling at her breast and letting drogo do all the cool shit?? I wouldnt. Yeah seasons of her shouting all of her titles and talking about what shes gonna do when her dragons are grown will be much better then having Drogo.
lol
it's funny cuz it's true...
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Some posts have been less than careful and stated things that are potentially unfortunate. This is a thread for very careful tip-toeing and double checking if you have read the books and intend to take part in some of the more detailed matters of plot.
Everyone had some part in starting the war. Much like Varys' question about who killed Ned, or anything when you try to break it down to specifics, it's hardly a simple matter. You can try to determine some optimal point of intent, culpability and relevance but even minor variances in personal inclination could lead to that method landing anywhere on the square whose outermost edges are framed by Robert Baratheon, Tywin Lannister, Ned Stark, and Varys.
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On July 28 2012 22:53 Papulatus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 22:01 Lylat wrote:
I'm reading the third book right now, almost finished it and it's fuckin amazing, omg.
I think overall the TV show is quite good, except some weird things like during the Blackwater battle, in the TV show Stannis fought and got caught but somehow he's released and back in Dragonstone ? What the fuck. Stannis was pulled out of the battle by his men, and yes, the character that is Stannis is the show is different than the character that is Stannis in the books. Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 22:47 Escavalier wrote:
Hard to make a stupidity list without Catelyn near the top. She pretty much single-handedly started the whole war, and came up with the bright idea of going "lol Jaime i know youre probably the second-best Lannister commander and one of the best cards we have, but im gonna release you anyways." Catelyn did NOT start the war. Don't say that. The war ultimately started as a result of a Baratheon succession crisis, and escalated when Ned was arrested for being a traitor. Catelyn arresting Tyrion simply caused Tywin to raise his banners against the River Lands as Lord Tywin could not take a hit to his reputation as having his son arrested by a Tully. Further, it wasn't entirely Catelyn's fault for arresting Tyrion, as Little Finger was the one who claimed that the dagger was Tyrions, when its made pretty clear that its not Tyrions. Little Finger could have named the dagger anyone's dagger, but he chose Tyrion, likely to inflame Stark-Tully-Lannister relations for reasons unknown. But Catelyn releaseing Jaime was possibly the stupidest thing possible.
Isn't this how it happened?
1. Catelyn suspects Lannister shenanigans causing Bran's fall and travel to King's Landing.
2. Ned meets Catelyn and Littlefinger in King's Landing and Littlefinger says the dagger belongs to Tyrion.
3. Ned makes it very clear to Catelyn that she should not take matters into her own hands and sends her home.
4. Cat meets Tyrion and Yoren (Night's Watch guy) and captures him.
5. Yoren races back to King's Landing to tell Ned that Catelyn captured Tyrion. Ned is visibly shocked and upset. Jaime attacks Ned on the streets, wounding him and Tywin begins devastating the Riverlands.
And I think it's clear that the confrontation between Ned and Jaime, furthered by Cercei's bitchiness, was what gave Robert a massive headache and sent him out on a hunting trip to cool down.
If we're looking at this from a "what-if" point of view, the Baratheon succession crisis would never have happened if Robert wasn't killed, and it was really the confrontation between Ned and Jaime (and the whole chaos with Tywin that would inevitably have followed) that finished Robert.
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On July 29 2012 17:53 Escavalier wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 22:53 Papulatus wrote:On July 28 2012 22:01 Lylat wrote:
I'm reading the third book right now, almost finished it and it's fuckin amazing, omg.
I think overall the TV show is quite good, except some weird things like during the Blackwater battle, in the TV show Stannis fought and got caught but somehow he's released and back in Dragonstone ? What the fuck. Stannis was pulled out of the battle by his men, and yes, the character that is Stannis is the show is different than the character that is Stannis in the books. On July 28 2012 22:47 Escavalier wrote:
Hard to make a stupidity list without Catelyn near the top. She pretty much single-handedly started the whole war, and came up with the bright idea of going "lol Jaime i know youre probably the second-best Lannister commander and one of the best cards we have, but im gonna release you anyways." Catelyn did NOT start the war. Don't say that. The war ultimately started as a result of a Baratheon succession crisis, and escalated when Ned was arrested for being a traitor. Catelyn arresting Tyrion simply caused Tywin to raise his banners against the River Lands as Lord Tywin could not take a hit to his reputation as having his son arrested by a Tully. Further, it wasn't entirely Catelyn's fault for arresting Tyrion, as Little Finger was the one who claimed that the dagger was Tyrions, when its made pretty clear that its not Tyrions. Little Finger could have named the dagger anyone's dagger, but he chose Tyrion, likely to inflame Stark-Tully-Lannister relations for reasons unknown. But Catelyn releaseing Jaime was possibly the stupidest thing possible. Isn't this how it happened? 1. Catelyn suspects Lannister shenanigans causing Bran's fall and travel to King's Landing. 2. Ned meets Catelyn and Littlefinger in King's Landing and Littlefinger says the dagger belongs to Tyrion. 3. Ned makes it very clear to Catelyn that she should not take matters into her own hands and sends her home. 4. Cat meets Tyrion and Yoren (Night's Watch guy) and captures him. 5. Yoren races back to King's Landing to tell Ned that Catelyn captured Tyrion. Ned is visibly shocked and upset. Jaime attacks Ned on the streets, wounding him and Tywin begins devastating the Riverlands. And I think it's clear that the confrontation between Ned and Jaime, furthered by Cercei's bitchiness, was what gave Robert a massive headache and sent him out on a hunting trip to cool down. If we're looking at this from a "what-if" point of view, the Baratheon succession crisis would never have happened if Robert wasn't killed, and it was really the confrontation between Ned and Jaime (and the whole chaos with Tywin that would inevitably have followed) that finished Robert.
There would still have been a war. Stannis is aware that Roberts children are all bastards, and so are Cerceis. There's no valid heir from Robert's side but both Stannis and Renly wanted the throne. In the mean time Tywin would try to keep hold of the power and Ned would probably have rebelled as well, siding with Stannis.
The Vale would just chill, the Riverlands would come with Ned, the Reach would tag a long whoever Margaery is married to and Dorne would just chill.
Edit. Assuming of course that Robert and Cercei don't get any legitimate children, but that doesn't seem very likely.
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On July 29 2012 17:53 Escavalier wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 22:53 Papulatus wrote:On July 28 2012 22:01 Lylat wrote:
I'm reading the third book right now, almost finished it and it's fuckin amazing, omg.
I think overall the TV show is quite good, except some weird things like during the Blackwater battle, in the TV show Stannis fought and got caught but somehow he's released and back in Dragonstone ? What the fuck. Stannis was pulled out of the battle by his men, and yes, the character that is Stannis is the show is different than the character that is Stannis in the books. On July 28 2012 22:47 Escavalier wrote:
Hard to make a stupidity list without Catelyn near the top. She pretty much single-handedly started the whole war, and came up with the bright idea of going "lol Jaime i know youre probably the second-best Lannister commander and one of the best cards we have, but im gonna release you anyways." Catelyn did NOT start the war. Don't say that. The war ultimately started as a result of a Baratheon succession crisis, and escalated when Ned was arrested for being a traitor. Catelyn arresting Tyrion simply caused Tywin to raise his banners against the River Lands as Lord Tywin could not take a hit to his reputation as having his son arrested by a Tully. Further, it wasn't entirely Catelyn's fault for arresting Tyrion, as Little Finger was the one who claimed that the dagger was Tyrions, when its made pretty clear that its not Tyrions. Little Finger could have named the dagger anyone's dagger, but he chose Tyrion, likely to inflame Stark-Tully-Lannister relations for reasons unknown. But Catelyn releaseing Jaime was possibly the stupidest thing possible. Isn't this how it happened? 1. Catelyn suspects Lannister shenanigans causing Bran's fall and travel to King's Landing. 2. Ned meets Catelyn and Littlefinger in King's Landing and Littlefinger says the dagger belongs to Tyrion. 3. Ned makes it very clear to Catelyn that she should not take matters into her own hands and sends her home. 4. Cat meets Tyrion and Yoren (Night's Watch guy) and captures him. 5. Yoren races back to King's Landing to tell Ned that Catelyn captured Tyrion. Ned is visibly shocked and upset. Jaime attacks Ned on the streets, wounding him and Tywin begins devastating the Riverlands. And I think it's clear that the confrontation between Ned and Jaime, furthered by Cercei's bitchiness, was what gave Robert a massive headache and sent him out on a hunting trip to cool down. If we're looking at this from a "what-if" point of view, the Baratheon succession crisis would never have happened if Robert wasn't killed, and it was really the confrontation between Ned and Jaime (and the whole chaos with Tywin that would inevitably have followed) that finished Robert.
Cersei had been searching for ways to kill Robert for a while. It just happened that the method of getting him killed by a boar worked out.
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On July 30 2012 11:37 Papulatus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 17:53 Escavalier wrote:On July 28 2012 22:53 Papulatus wrote:On July 28 2012 22:01 Lylat wrote:
I'm reading the third book right now, almost finished it and it's fuckin amazing, omg.
I think overall the TV show is quite good, except some weird things like during the Blackwater battle, in the TV show Stannis fought and got caught but somehow he's released and back in Dragonstone ? What the fuck. Stannis was pulled out of the battle by his men, and yes, the character that is Stannis is the show is different than the character that is Stannis in the books. On July 28 2012 22:47 Escavalier wrote:
Hard to make a stupidity list without Catelyn near the top. She pretty much single-handedly started the whole war, and came up with the bright idea of going "lol Jaime i know youre probably the second-best Lannister commander and one of the best cards we have, but im gonna release you anyways." Catelyn did NOT start the war. Don't say that. The war ultimately started as a result of a Baratheon succession crisis, and escalated when Ned was arrested for being a traitor. Catelyn arresting Tyrion simply caused Tywin to raise his banners against the River Lands as Lord Tywin could not take a hit to his reputation as having his son arrested by a Tully. Further, it wasn't entirely Catelyn's fault for arresting Tyrion, as Little Finger was the one who claimed that the dagger was Tyrions, when its made pretty clear that its not Tyrions. Little Finger could have named the dagger anyone's dagger, but he chose Tyrion, likely to inflame Stark-Tully-Lannister relations for reasons unknown. But Catelyn releaseing Jaime was possibly the stupidest thing possible. Isn't this how it happened? 1. Catelyn suspects Lannister shenanigans causing Bran's fall and travel to King's Landing. 2. Ned meets Catelyn and Littlefinger in King's Landing and Littlefinger says the dagger belongs to Tyrion. 3. Ned makes it very clear to Catelyn that she should not take matters into her own hands and sends her home. 4. Cat meets Tyrion and Yoren (Night's Watch guy) and captures him. 5. Yoren races back to King's Landing to tell Ned that Catelyn captured Tyrion. Ned is visibly shocked and upset. Jaime attacks Ned on the streets, wounding him and Tywin begins devastating the Riverlands. And I think it's clear that the confrontation between Ned and Jaime, furthered by Cercei's bitchiness, was what gave Robert a massive headache and sent him out on a hunting trip to cool down. If we're looking at this from a "what-if" point of view, the Baratheon succession crisis would never have happened if Robert wasn't killed, and it was really the confrontation between Ned and Jaime (and the whole chaos with Tywin that would inevitably have followed) that finished Robert. Cersei had been searching for ways to kill Robert for a while. It just happened that the method of getting him killed by a boar worked out.
It's kind of weird how she's putting all eggs in one basket though. I mean there are no guarantees that Robert will get killed by the boar. If Ned would've told Robert, then the Lannisters would've been royally fucked in a very figurative way.
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Daenerys was kind of a dissapointment this season, she really just shouted her titles and seemed to let her emotions guide her, and I fear it worked only cause of the dragonbabies. I have started reading the book, season 2, hopefully there is more meaning to her behaviour.
I loved her in season 1, cause she was smart and knew what had to be done to start loving drogo, it really shows the power of what women can do if they think and adapt. Season 2 she just yelled all the time.. On the bright side, Jorah mormont was pretty decent in his dialogue with Daenerys. Maybe that was what the writer wanted to show us.
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Dude if I was a dragon princess chick I would be all over jorah. That devotion of his... And those smooth courtly tones as he's waxing chivalrous... Gawd.
No homo.
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EPT
