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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 01 2012 04:31 sung_moon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 04:22 sjh wrote:On May 01 2012 04:08 scudst0rm wrote:On May 01 2012 03:40 Incognoto wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Disclaimer: These aren't spoilers. I haven't read the books. I don't know what's going to happen. This is pure speculation on my part. I'm posting as of when I've seen the 5th episode of the second season. !!!!!!
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So I was watching the last episode a second time (I find I always need to watch twice to get a good grasp at what's going on) and I did a small recap of the situation. So we have Renly dead and all the Baratheons who are under Stannis's flag. I'm pretty sure the Stark/Baratheon alliance is going to go to hell, especially since there are rumors of Cat being the assassin (or at least having taken part in it).
So every house is basically for itself now. Greyjoys vs Stark, Stark vs Lannister, Baratheon vs Lannister, etc. There are pretty much no alliances. And every house wants the throne, EXCEPT for Robb Stark. He just wants Joffrey's head. So basically the 7 kingdoms is one hell of a war.
On top of that, we have Daenerys Targaryen, who also wants the throne. I think the really interesting part of this episode was when Jorah told her that her allies weren't at Qarth (I hope she leaves Qarth soon btw because that city gives me the creeps) but in Westorros. Except that Daeny is the only Targaryen alive... who the hell is going to support her? Who are her allies? Yeah she's got the dragons but they're still little and shit. The other interesting point is that Daenerys would make a good queen. When she was a Khaleesi, she was loved by the people and she was a good khaleesi. A kind one. She's probably the best monarch the Iron Throne could get, better than Stannis, Joffrey or whoever else wants it. She'd be good to her people, she isn't the Mad King. She's also honorable, which seems to be a rare quality.
In that regard, it almost seems that Daenerys and Robb Stark are natural allies. Robb doesn't want the Throne, Daeny does. Robb needs support because he's alone against 3 different houses, Daeny needs an ally in Westorros. The Starks are the ones who are going to "suffer" the most when Winter comes, what with White Walkers and their wights. What kills the latter? Fire. What breathes fire? Dragons, that's what. Both are honorable, both are loved by their people. Both are leaders. An alliance almost seems perfect between them, even if Stark and Targaryen have been at each other in the past. Not only that, the Starks are the only faction who doesn't want to rule on the Iron Throne (besides perhaps Greyjoy), hence the only reasonable ally to be had for Daeny.
I don't have much to say about Snow. His story line is really interesting but I can't think of horse shit of stuff that'll happen. I'm pretty sure that the wildlings and the WW aren't allies. I'm pretty sure that the WW are the ones making the wildlings march south. But that's all.
I really love Arya's situation, it's really interesting. Especially with Gendry mixed up there (by the way people, don't forget that Gendry has a claim to the throne). What I find harder to believe is that someone as smart as Tywin (the opposition of epicness between Tywin and Arya is really excellent btw) didn't put two and two together about Arya.
So Stark's last girl completely disappears, no one can find her, no one knows where she is. The Lannisters are looking for her though. Tywin is aware that Arya hasn't been captured. All of a sudden, a northern girl is found in a convoy which left FROM King's Landing (ie where Arya was last known to be). Fancy THAT. Doesn't he realize he's got Arya? That said, he probably isn't even thinking about her at all, considering he's waging a war and not doing politics. The other thing I'm surprised that Tywin didn't figure out was who Gendry was. Oh, right, blacksmith's apprentices are SO common, are they? They go looking for one, they find the convey where he was, they think he's dead. But apparently another blacksmith was also traveling with them.
My analysis is that the Lannisters at King's Landing aren't telling Tywin all the details of their failings. ;/
But yeah enough for now, I've got myself my own Wall [of text] here. I don't know how likely an alliance between Robb and Dany would be. the Starks got just as bad of a rap as the Baratheons from Viserys. Although Dany knows Viserys was full of shit most of the time I think she still holds that animosity. Then there's Ser Jorah, who usually dispels most of Viserys' BS, but in this case he also has a grudge against the Starks because Ned was the one who exiled him. The other thing to keep in mind is that Dany wants to rule over the entirety of the 7 kingdoms. It could be that she wouldn't be down with Robb having a 'King of the North' title. Pretty dumb question, but what are the 7 kingdoms? 1. the north (the entire northern region) 2. casterly rock 3. stormlands 4. the reach (or w/e land the Tyrell's control) 5. the vale 6. dorne? (Who even holds the Dorne and I guess they remain nuetral within all this conflict?) 7. riverlands?
Kingdom (Ruling Family/Capital)
1. The North (Stark/Winterfell)
2. The Vale (Arryn/The Eyrie)
3. The West (Lannister/Casterly Rock)
4. The Iron Islands/Riverlands (Greyjoy,Tully/Pyke,Riverrun or Harrenhall)
5. The Stormlands (Baratheon/Storm's End)
6. The Reach (Tyrell/Highgarden)
7. Dorne (Martell/Sunspear)
in rough geographic order, from north to south. The Iron Islands had at one time taken over the Riverlands, and they ruled from Harrenhall, but they were "kicked out" by the Targaryens and their Dragons. Still, the two are not considered to be seperate kingdoms. Don't know why. Pretty sure Dorne was the last of the seven kingdoms to join the other six, and they're currently staying Neutral in this whole clusterfuck of a civil war. IIRC Tyrion's trying to marry his niece to their heir though, so that might change.
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I was a bit confused on Theon's epiphany. He's going to attack a Northern castle? Is he already that huge of a traitor?
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Canada11375 Posts
On May 01 2012 05:42 holdthephone wrote:
I was a bit confused on Theon's epiphany. He's going to attack a Northern castle? Is he already that huge of a traitor?
Well he is rather an outcast on either side. He was never really accepted by the Starks as evidenced by Rob's earlier treatment and he certainly isn't accepted by his own people. So it is his chance to gain an in with one side.
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United States13896 Posts
It's kind of difficult to brand Theon as a traitor when he was made to pick a side between his family who he was estranged from for 10 years, and between his captors who he had grown to like. Anyways, he's very ambitious and has a bit of an ego, so this is hardly out of character. But aside from that, who said anything about attacking it? It's pretty clear they plan to infiltrate the castle through Theon's connections w/the Starks, then take control once they are inside. Even with the garrison out on patrol they don't have the means to lay seige to the city by themselves.
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I actually became distracted by the production of the show this episode. Renting a camera crane alone probably cost over 20k in that episode, then there is the set design, costumes, location, actors, cgi, trailers etc. Renly's death felt super underwhelming for what it was but other than that it was my favourite episode of the season. Maybe they shouldn't show boobs in every episode.
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I just feel the Greyjoys are pretty detestable people at this point, at least the Starks were a bit more accepting. I don't think Yara has said a single line this season that wasn't sarcastic. She annoys me.
But yeah, Theon's character makes sense. I just disagree with him.
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,On May 01 2012 05:54 p4NDemik wrote:
It's kind of difficult to brand Theon as a traitor when he was made to pick a side between his family who he was estranged from for 10 years, and between his captors who he had grown to like. Anyways, he's very ambitious and has a bit of an ego, so this is hardly out of character. But aside from that, who said anything about attacking it? It's pretty clear they plan to infiltrate the castle through Theon's connections w/the Starks, then take control once they are inside. Even with the garrison out on patrol they don't have the means to lay seige to the city by themselves.
I think this is the highly likely scenario. He has most of his crew draw the garrison away from winterfell, he brings a small force in to winterfell on "friendly" terms, takes over from the inside, lets the rest of his men in, then is hailed as the man who conquered winterfell with 1 ship and 30 men. All speculation at this point but an ambitious man with his connections, this scheme seems the most fitting.
Now I am not sure if he can actually go through with it. He still has some fondness in his heart for the Starks, even though they treated him almost as bad as Snow. The Starks took care of him, trained him, and generally considered him their friend, with all that on his shoulders, I don't think Theon will be able to live with himself if he forcibly takes over winterfell. I mean, Catelyn and Brienne are on their way back to Winterfell. I have a feeling Theon will have taken over the castle, Catelyn will step in, bitch slap him, and he will sulk back to the Iron Isles ashamed.
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On May 01 2012 05:36 phyre112 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 04:31 sung_moon wrote:On May 01 2012 04:22 sjh wrote:On May 01 2012 04:08 scudst0rm wrote:On May 01 2012 03:40 Incognoto wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Disclaimer: These aren't spoilers. I haven't read the books. I don't know what's going to happen. This is pure speculation on my part. I'm posting as of when I've seen the 5th episode of the second season. !!!!!!
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So I was watching the last episode a second time (I find I always need to watch twice to get a good grasp at what's going on) and I did a small recap of the situation. So we have Renly dead and all the Baratheons who are under Stannis's flag. I'm pretty sure the Stark/Baratheon alliance is going to go to hell, especially since there are rumors of Cat being the assassin (or at least having taken part in it).
So every house is basically for itself now. Greyjoys vs Stark, Stark vs Lannister, Baratheon vs Lannister, etc. There are pretty much no alliances. And every house wants the throne, EXCEPT for Robb Stark. He just wants Joffrey's head. So basically the 7 kingdoms is one hell of a war.
On top of that, we have Daenerys Targaryen, who also wants the throne. I think the really interesting part of this episode was when Jorah told her that her allies weren't at Qarth (I hope she leaves Qarth soon btw because that city gives me the creeps) but in Westorros. Except that Daeny is the only Targaryen alive... who the hell is going to support her? Who are her allies? Yeah she's got the dragons but they're still little and shit. The other interesting point is that Daenerys would make a good queen. When she was a Khaleesi, she was loved by the people and she was a good khaleesi. A kind one. She's probably the best monarch the Iron Throne could get, better than Stannis, Joffrey or whoever else wants it. She'd be good to her people, she isn't the Mad King. She's also honorable, which seems to be a rare quality.
In that regard, it almost seems that Daenerys and Robb Stark are natural allies. Robb doesn't want the Throne, Daeny does. Robb needs support because he's alone against 3 different houses, Daeny needs an ally in Westorros. The Starks are the ones who are going to "suffer" the most when Winter comes, what with White Walkers and their wights. What kills the latter? Fire. What breathes fire? Dragons, that's what. Both are honorable, both are loved by their people. Both are leaders. An alliance almost seems perfect between them, even if Stark and Targaryen have been at each other in the past. Not only that, the Starks are the only faction who doesn't want to rule on the Iron Throne (besides perhaps Greyjoy), hence the only reasonable ally to be had for Daeny.
I don't have much to say about Snow. His story line is really interesting but I can't think of horse shit of stuff that'll happen. I'm pretty sure that the wildlings and the WW aren't allies. I'm pretty sure that the WW are the ones making the wildlings march south. But that's all.
I really love Arya's situation, it's really interesting. Especially with Gendry mixed up there (by the way people, don't forget that Gendry has a claim to the throne). What I find harder to believe is that someone as smart as Tywin (the opposition of epicness between Tywin and Arya is really excellent btw) didn't put two and two together about Arya.
So Stark's last girl completely disappears, no one can find her, no one knows where she is. The Lannisters are looking for her though. Tywin is aware that Arya hasn't been captured. All of a sudden, a northern girl is found in a convoy which left FROM King's Landing (ie where Arya was last known to be). Fancy THAT. Doesn't he realize he's got Arya? That said, he probably isn't even thinking about her at all, considering he's waging a war and not doing politics. The other thing I'm surprised that Tywin didn't figure out was who Gendry was. Oh, right, blacksmith's apprentices are SO common, are they? They go looking for one, they find the convey where he was, they think he's dead. But apparently another blacksmith was also traveling with them.
My analysis is that the Lannisters at King's Landing aren't telling Tywin all the details of their failings. ;/
But yeah enough for now, I've got myself my own Wall [of text] here. I don't know how likely an alliance between Robb and Dany would be. the Starks got just as bad of a rap as the Baratheons from Viserys. Although Dany knows Viserys was full of shit most of the time I think she still holds that animosity. Then there's Ser Jorah, who usually dispels most of Viserys' BS, but in this case he also has a grudge against the Starks because Ned was the one who exiled him. The other thing to keep in mind is that Dany wants to rule over the entirety of the 7 kingdoms. It could be that she wouldn't be down with Robb having a 'King of the North' title. Pretty dumb question, but what are the 7 kingdoms? 1. the north (the entire northern region) 2. casterly rock 3. stormlands 4. the reach (or w/e land the Tyrell's control) 5. the vale 6. dorne? (Who even holds the Dorne and I guess they remain nuetral within all this conflict?) 7. riverlands? Kingdom (Ruling Family/Capital) 1. The North (Stark/Winterfell) 2. The Vale (Arryn/The Eyrie) 3. The West (Lannister/Casterly Rock) 4. The Iron Islands/Riverlands (Greyjoy,Tully/Pyke,Riverrun or Harrenhall) 5. The Stormlands (Baratheon/Storm's End) 6. The Reach (Tyrell/Highgarden) 7. Dorne (Martell/Sunspear) in rough geographic order, from north to south. The Iron Islands had at one time taken over the Riverlands, and they ruled from Harrenhall, but they were "kicked out" by the Targaryens and their Dragons. Still, the two are not considered to be seperate kingdoms. Don't know why. Pretty sure Dorne was the last of the seven kingdoms to join the other six, and they're currently staying Neutral in this whole clusterfuck of a civil war. IIRC Tyrion's trying to marry his niece to their heir though, so that might change.
Ever since Aegon's landing Riverlands has been a seperate entity, and yes Dorne joined later which actually made 8 kingdoms. The Tullys were given the riverlands after aiding the targaryens in their conquest.
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On May 01 2012 05:54 p4NDemik wrote:
It's kind of difficult to brand Theon as a traitor when he was made to pick a side between his family who he was estranged from for 10 years, and between his captors who he had grown to like. Anyways, he's very ambitious and has a bit of an ego, so this is hardly out of character. But aside from that, who said anything about attacking it? It's pretty clear they plan to infiltrate the castle through Theon's connections w/the Starks, then take control once they are inside. Even with the garrison out on patrol they don't have the means to lay seige to the city by themselves.
I think his plan is rather obvious? He's going to take Torren's Square, hold it for a few days and force a reaction from the Starks. With most of their soldiers down south fighting with Robb, the few fighting men who are left will need to march out to Torren's Square, and try to take it back. In the mean time, He slips around behind them, and takes Winterfell itself, which will be completely defenseless. Clearly taking the Capital of the North is going to look better for him than fighting some fisherman on the Stony Shore. That's how he intends to prove himself.
It's pretty obvious that that's what Bran's dream means, isn't it? "The Sea came to winterfell, flooded the walls and it drowned so and so" Means that Theon came in, took over, and killed a bunch of people.
But no matter what he decides to do, Theon is a traitor. If he sides with the Starks, he has been "bought" by his captors and the men who killed his brothers. If he turns against the Starks, he turns against Ned, the man who essentially raised him, and treated him almost as well as he treated his own sons, and against Robb who is as close to a brother as he's still got - there's no pressure on him, because there is no "right choice" to be made. Have to love that about this series... with the exception of Joffery, who is actually just crazy, no one really seems "Bad" or "Good", there's just a bunch of in-between and grey area, and "if this then that." Quality writing/storytelling that
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Theon's family is a bunch of pricks, his loyalty should lie with the ones who raised him!
Rawwwrrrrrrrrr
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United States13896 Posts
Yeah Bran's dream was pretty clear. That's why I said "its pretty clear."
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On May 01 2012 05:18 SergioCQH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 05:08 Ace wrote:
The Riverlands are indeed part of the count. The Iron Islands themselves are not. This is wrong. The Riverlands have never been an independent kingdom. They were once part of the kingdom of the Iron Islands.
At the time of the current story the Riverlands is independent from the Iron Islands. They are their own Kingdom. I'll leave it at that since I don't want to talk any more about the books. You can PM me for the explanation if this isn't clear.
On May 01 2012 05:19 lynx.oblige wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 05:08 Ace wrote:
The Riverlands are indeed part of the count. The Iron Islands themselves are not. "Westeros in the books is depicted much as in the TV series, though it is possible that the book version of the continent is slightly larger, as in the TV series it only takes a large party a month to get from Winterfell to King's Landing. In the book version, this would only be possible for a fast, single rider with frequent changes of mount. In the novels the term 'Seven Kingdoms' is a much looser and more informal term. However, in the TV series it seems to be more codified and important, with emphasis given on the fact that the Riverlands are not considered part of the count." The Iron Islands are 100% part of the count.
Must be different for the TV series then. *shrug*
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Yara is a bitch. Dislike her.
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We all seem to agree on the North, Westerlands, Stormlands, the Vale and the Reach.
The Riverlands and the Iron Islands were ruled by the same king (from Harrenhal) when the Targaryens (Aegon the Conqueror) arrived, they count as 1 "kingdom".
Dorne also counts as one even though Aegon did not conquer it, so technically he only ruled six of the seven kingdoms until Dorne were absorbed 200 years later. With that you're at seven.
Zoom forward to present time, we now view the Riverlands and the Iron Islands as separate entities since they're ruled by two different houses (Greyjoy/Tully), and you also have the province known as the Crownlands (area surrounding King's Landing) which did not exist at the time of the unification. 7 original kingdoms, 9 present day districts.
Also re: house Martell, since they haven't openly rebelled like everyone else, should we assume that they're supporting Joffrey? With a civil war going on I would've expected King's Landing to call for their help and/or branded them as traitors if they refused?
The scene where Sam gives a history lesson about the mountain they're on seemed kinda out of place. None of his brothers wanted to listen to him so it seemed like he was just spouting out info for the sake of enlightening us as viewers. ^^
Also, DRAGONS.
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On May 01 2012 05:33 cuppatea wrote:
Can't say I'm thrilled at the increasingly prominent role the fantasy elements of the story are taking.
"Renly's troops massively outnumber our own, there's no way to beat him in battle, we have no hope of winning... unless... we send the magic smoke monster to kill him in his tent and get all of his army to follow me instead!"
I loved the scene between Renly and Stannis in the previous episode and thought it set the conflict between them up quite nicely. To see that whole storyline resolved within 5 minutes of the following episode (by a magic smoke monster) was more than a little disappointing.
Stannis was hopelessly outnumbered. Renly had a bigger army than both the Starks and the Lannisters and much much bigger than Stannis'. If it came to a straight up fight on the battlefield, he would have been annihilated. He did what he had to do to win.
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Wait I thought there was 8-9 kingdoms: (their main cities) winterfell, pyke, the eyrie, riverrun, lannisport, dragonstone, highgarden, storms end, and sun spear
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On May 01 2012 06:45 thebigdonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 05:33 cuppatea wrote:
Can't say I'm thrilled at the increasingly prominent role the fantasy elements of the story are taking.
"Renly's troops massively outnumber our own, there's no way to beat him in battle, we have no hope of winning... unless... we send the magic smoke monster to kill him in his tent and get all of his army to follow me instead!"
I loved the scene between Renly and Stannis in the previous episode and thought it set the conflict between them up quite nicely. To see that whole storyline resolved within 5 minutes of the following episode (by a magic smoke monster) was more than a little disappointing. Stannis was hopelessly outnumbered. Renly had a bigger army than both the Starks and the Lannisters and much much bigger than Stannis'. If it came to a straight up fight on the battlefield, he would have been annihilated. He did what he had to do to win.
Not to mention that , it's not like this would of worked in any other situation... Imagine Robb stark in that position, the Northmen wouldn't of just flocked to Stannis' banners afterwards, nor would any other armies. It's the fact that they were both baratheon's and by rights the lords over the Stormlands and their bannerman.
Sending an assassin (or in this case shadow demon) in order to secure yourself more levies with as little bloodshed as possible is the most intelligent decision.
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On May 01 2012 06:44 Shichibukai wrote:
We all seem to agree on the North, Westerlands, Stormlands, the Vale and the Reach.
The Riverlands and the Iron Islands were ruled by the same king (from Harrenhal) when the Targaryens (Aegon the Conqueror) arrived, they count as 1 "kingdom".
Dorne also counts as one even though Aegon did not conquer it, so technically he only ruled six of the seven kingdoms until Dorne were absorbed 200 years later. With that you're at seven.
Zoom forward to present time, we now view the Riverlands and the Iron Islands as separate entities since they're ruled by two different houses (Greyjoy/Tully), and you also have the province known as the Crownlands (area surrounding King's Landing) which did not exist at the time of the unification. 7 original kingdoms, 9 present day districts.
Also re: house Martell, since they haven't openly rebelled like everyone else, should we assume that they're supporting Joffrey? With a civil war going on I would've expected King's Landing to call for their help and/or branded them as traitors if they refused?
The scene where Sam gives a history lesson about the mountain they're on seemed kinda out of place. None of his brothers wanted to listen to him so it seemed like he was just spouting out info for the sake of enlightening us as viewers. ^^
Also, DRAGONS.
Sam was well within his nerdself spewing that information. So while it was for the viewers it wasnt completely out of place.
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On May 01 2012 06:54 dark_dragoon10 wrote:
Wait I thought there was 8-9 kingdoms: (their main cities) winterfell, pyke, the eyrie, riverrun, lannisport, dragonstone, highgarden, storms end, and sun spear
Dragonstone was part of Valyria up until the Doom then controlled by the Targaryens until Aegons conquest. It was never one of the 7 Kingdoms.
As we've been over multi times in the last few pages, the riverlands and iron islands were the same kingdom before the conquest. in current times they have different liege lords and are considered seperated regions/provinces or w/e.
The term 7 Kingdoms is just antiquated. Each region is no longer its own Kingdom but the name just kind of stuck.
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On May 01 2012 06:54 dark_dragoon10 wrote:
Wait I thought there was 8-9 kingdoms: (their main cities) winterfell, pyke, the eyrie, riverrun, lannisport, dragonstone, highgarden, storms end, and sun spear
Before the unification of the Seven Kingdoms, house Targaryen had a castle on Dragonstone, yes, but not a kingdom. Pyke and Riverrun were united under the same king.
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EPT
